The future of whoinvis

[Lei]

I'm gonna bow out of the conversation after this reply; feel like I've given my say here.

In response to Starstarfish:

Does every single plot loop have to meet a conclusion? Do we really have to know if someone is still playing the game or not?

The rules of the game allow for people to request story wrap ups for people who are not playing. So ... sort of, yes.

Asking for a story wrap-up after a character hasn't been seen or heard from in OOC months can still be done without our own OOC knowledge of whether they're hiding under whoinvis or not. We just put in a request to staff as usual. They can certainly look at the situation and make a judgment about how to handle things.

[Starstarfish]

But if mages like Nalien/jakob who hid on whoinvis can be caught, then I am doubtful it's impossible.

Likely only staff should comment on that one if they see fit.

[Puciek]

No PUCIEK, it's not impossible. If it was so many of the bigger mages would never have been caught. We've had plenty of villains who lurk via whoinvis and who still get caught. It just requires people to put in more work they want to.

Organizing a party to capture somebody you saw on who is as much of an ooc mean as someone having whoivnis on. There is ZERO difference between the two.

Please tell me how you catch such player then, can use an example from last few years to back it up if you want. Because I don't see how can you catch someone who you don't even know if that player is actually playing the game at all. So do that, please, enlighten me and many other players here, instead of just repeating yourself and ignoring most of the points raised.

You find who their allies are. You threaten said allies. You arrest said allies. If you play your cards right, you can turn friends into foes, and use the allies of the person you are trying to find against them, with them none the wiser. I've had it happen to me in the case of Mekina, Rhea, Seymour. Been plenty of times someone I thought I could trust, betrayed me and lead me into traps.

I can't pretend to know of any recent cases in the last year or two since I haven't played a law enforcement type in those times. But if mages like Nalien/jakob who hid on whoinvis can be caught, then I am doubtful it's impossible.

It shows that you do not know recent cases, especially the one you have mentioned as you wouldn't have brought it up. But guessing is a fine way to make a point, I guess better than knowing the case that you bring up.

But yes, the order must find allies of those mages that they don't even know when/if they RP, then convince them to set a trap for the mages they don't if/when RP, then execute the trap for those mages they don't know if/when rp. Glad that your mages were caught that way, now come to the other side and implement that in practice. Is there any way to catch those mages that don't involve other mages? Or should order just start hiring them outright?

[Voxumo]

But yes, the order must find allies of those mages that they don't even know when/if they RP, then convince them to set a trap for the mages they don't if/when RP, then execute the trap for those mages they don't know if/when rp. Glad that your mages were caught that way, now come to the other side and implement that in practice. Is there any way to catch those mages that don't involve other mages? Or should order just start hiring them outright?

Chuckles

Clearly the order nowadays lacks creativity, and expects mages to be handed to them on a silver platter.

If a mage doesn't want to get captured, you can be damn sure no amount of whoinvis or not will change that. Sounds like whoinvis isn't the issue here, but the order refusing to think outside the box. If an ally of a mage can't even find them, you sure as heck won't be able to find them either. There's a reason most mages are only caught due to mistakes/slip ups, versus concentrated efforts. There is no perfect solution for capturing mages or villains of any type, and removing whoinvis isn't going to solve this issue.

[Puciek]

But yes, the order must find allies of those mages that they don't even know when/if they RP, then convince them to set a trap for the mages they don't if/when RP, then execute the trap for those mages they don't know if/when rp. Glad that your mages were caught that way, now come to the other side and implement that in practice. Is there any way to catch those mages that don't involve other mages? Or should order just start hiring them outright?

Chuckles

Clearly the order nowadays lacks creativity, and expects mages to be handed to them on a silver platter.

If a mage doesn't want to get captured, you can be damn sure no amount of whoinvis or not will change that. Sounds like whoinvis isn't the issue here, but the order refusing to think outside the box. If an ally of a mage can't even find them, you sure as heck won't be able to find them either.

Nope, order is just and the example you said that you know how to solve. Apparently you have one trick pony solution that is flawed as brick fo cheese, because even if I will tell you where hideout of a mage is (exact one exit room), and that he logs in there, without spell-up and without a spell prepared then in order to catch that player you will have to permanently sit in that room for hours/days/week, hoping that this player logs in and they won't slip through shouldering/flee. And sitting in a room, for days, hoping for someone to log in and missing on all other rp is so much fun.

But of course you want to change the topic now, so I will excuse myself from exchanging this further with you.

[Starstarfish]

If that's true, then why is Whoinvis necessary? Most of what Whoinvis accomplishes can be accomplished by going off WhereRP and turning off tells.

Or allow people to use it for a set period of time, there's a timer on it now that counts down, make that timer longer.

[lkbalboa]

What is whoinvis actually intended for? If someone answered this, I missed it.

[Voxumo]

What is whoinvis actually intended for? If someone answered this, I missed it.

I tried looking back and I couldn't find a post that answers this very well, and even looking at the helpfile for whoinvis... it doesn't even state itself what the purpose of Whoinvis is. Just states what it does.

Whoinvis is a toggle that will allow a player to appear as [Whoinvis] on
the who list.

If you are whoinvis, you cannot receive or send tells, except from staff.

Players cannot toggle whoinvis off and back on immediately. There is a
delay in place before the command can be used again to let any pending
conversations complete.

Puciek did comment on the reason for whoinvis in the first place, though that's subjective as I can't find anything that confirms or denies this. But for reference sake here is his comment.

The reason for whoinvis in the first place was on request of knights so mages won't be able to decide, by use of who, if it's safe or not to go and do the evil deeds (see no knights online, go and do evil etc), the use of it by criminals was not the intent.

Obviously if this is the origin, it's quite... questionable.

[chronodbu]

In all honesty, whoinvis isn't necessary for villains to be villainous nor should who be being used by lawful types to hunt them in any capacity.

You don't have to sit around watching one spot. There are multiple ways to hunt people in this game, it's just a matter of working for it rather than expecting to have it given to you.

Personally, I think whoinvis is good as is. Maybe put a timer on how long it can be used with a cool down afterwards if it's truly being abused? Otherwise the automatic turn off on login is good, and I only say that because I have found myself forgetting I turned it on the night before sometimes.

[Kinaed]

Puciek's quote on why whoinvis exists is actually true. Back in the day, years ago, knights would come online and mages would just log right off or wait until knights weren't around to do anything (or so it was said). The Knights of the time complained and negotiated the idea of whoinvis.

I've seen a lot of comments about using the wholist being unfair, etc, but I don't think that using the wholist in every capacity is unfair. Some uses are clearly metagaming, but some are just legitimately using a tool to help you find RP for just that. Likewise we could get rid of where, afterall it's OOC info that 3 people are at the Bear and the Boar, but again, it'd just be blinding people to potential RP. We don't get upset with people for sending a tell asking a friend to RP anymore than we do using the OOC Channel to ask if anyone's interested. Using the wholist to find RP is fine with me. Using it to discover someone is gentry and bringing that into RP is an example of something less fine.

Hiding with whoinvis for a specific purpose seems quasi-okay to me, depending on what the reason is. Hiding indefinitely strikes me as unreasonable, particularly when it's people who have some strong responsibility to RP with other people. When I see a GL whoinvis for weeks on end, I don't think very highly of them.

It's a bit interesting to me that we let PCs go whoinvis, but don't let staff. *ponder*

On Jakob - Jakob wasn't caught naturally, he was caught because he accidentally made a big mistake. It had nothing to do with whoinvis.