[Poll] Theme Enforcement - the gentle approach

[Rothgar]

Right off the bat, I'll ask in advance for anyone willing to explain to me this entire "The Order is corrupt" meme. I've heard it out of the mouths of 6 different characters, IC'ly, 2 or 3 of whom either got banned or left, and evidently this is such an enriching and fun plot to play around with that now I'm hearing the exact same arguments out of the mouths of people who - seemingly - haven't bothered to approach the Order, itself, to ask about these things? Anyway. I'm starting up a 'know your meme' page with "The Order is Corrupt," on it and I want to make sure I get the story correct. Any assistance would be appreciated.

I'll handle these as I read them over my time in traffic after my vacation. Initial post from Kinaed addressed the Staff taking a stronger stance on enforcing theme. Perhaps understandably, Staff and I have butted heads on this subject. They know that I have a vision in my head after playing for a few years, I know this is their MUD, and their say, ultimately. I won't touch on what I think "theme," is. Instead, I'll say this : I (generally) do not advocate for the Staff being forced to do more work than they need to do. I believe that there are IC methods of enforcement, and that - generally - Staff does not need to be involved more than they personally want to be. I believe that invoking Staff to do what the players themselves should be doing is, at best, a lazy attempt to coerce them to do your work for you. I will add, as well, that every time Staff has been involved in a high-profile Policy decision, it has never once ended with a kind word and a nod. OOC feelings get hurt, people take sides, people leave - or worse, do wonky things to the server. I speak from experience. I believe that the best-case scenario is letting things play out IC'ly, for better or for worse.

Next was Zeita's suggestion of reviving Court for Policy enforcement. I think this is an idea that has merit, and I generally agree - however, I do not believe that we currently have the playerbase for this to be implemented correctly at this time. I could be entirely wrong, that's just my own suggestion. Your note about Senschal and Church GL's, however, I wholeheartedly agree with. I think it's a drum worth beating, but that's just my $0.02.

Then Desna. There's a lot to process here - first and foremost is an accusation of controlling the game via underhanded means, but not having logs to back that opinion up. The quick and dirty answer to that is : If you don't have logs, don't state it as fact. Having an opinion is absolutely fine. Presenting these opinions as objective facts, however, and then saying that you can't possibly have logs of those "facts?" No. Absolutely not. I've been involved in a "he said, she said," Policy case, and it's awful. Thank the Lord I had logs to prove my side of the story, because otherwise I wouldn't have believed me, either. Case and point : if you have legitimate evidence of cheating, or underhanded OOC techniques, or anything else, you need to present it. Otherwise, keep in mind that it's simply an opinion, from your point of view.

As for how opening up PK will... Strengthen the MUD? I have no idea. Is the argument that older characters are bad for the MUD? That written history is bad for the MUD? You're evidently advocating for a player genocide, and I absolutely cannot in any way agree with you. I'd go so far as to vehemently disagree with you. Older characters are the lifeblood of this MUD. There are enormous names out there, immortalized through IC and OOC historical accounts, and it'd be an utter travesty to lose those accounts and those characters simply because someone, somewhere, doesn't think that "theme" is being followed. This argument is baffling to me, maybe you can flesh it out, but for now, this makes as much sense to me as cutting off my head because I've got a sniffle.

Look, guys, lets be honest with one another. Call a spade a spade, here. Theme - first and foremost - isn't our friend. If we wanted to be "thematic," if we wanted to be "realistic," we'd have women hung in-game for stepping out of doors without a male chaperone. We'd have long ago burned Southside to the freaking ground for what it's done and harbored over the years. Mages would have long ago won the war in the South, and the Church would just be bagging random people off the freaking street to burn them as Mages. This... "Theme," that you want is utter madness. It's horrifying. The 1400's were a freaking horrifying place, medieval Europe was an utter death-trap. There were no "rights," as you know them. Not even basic human rights. The strong ruled over the weak, did what they wanted with them, and tossed them away. I will say this - and anyone here absolutely feel free to correct me if they think I'm wrong :

If this MUD was played wholly in-theme, realistically, absolutely no one would want to play it.

Knowing that, there has to be some "give" to theme. Charalin can't get killed on sight because people WANT to play Charalin. You can't hang a guy for speaking Hill in a bar because some people WANT to speak Hill in an Arien bar. You can't burn everyone with a lazy eye for being a Mage because some people WANT to roleplay having a Lunare lazy eye. It's UNAVOIDABLE. Theme, sometimes, MUST be broken for people to stick around. I mean, do you guys honestly think that, for a second, it would be unthematic for the Knights to start busting down doors and burning randos because they want to? Arien, no. I'd argue that it's unthematic that they CAN'T do that. But I realize that the process - seeking an Inquisitor, warranting, giving the opponent time to act, writing your charges - Provides RP, a chance for people to metastasize what's happening... Honestly, those arguing for a "more pure, thematic" experience can't see the forest for the damned trees. In order for us to wind up having anyone to play with, other than a handful of horrible, sociopathic people, we HAVE to bend or bind theme where we believe it necessary. Do I believe theme enforcement to be necessary? Absolutely. Do I think Staff should be fretting over every little pboard and whine and working their asses off because some people maybe sometimes think that theme isn't being followed to the "T?" Absolutely not.

*EDIT*
My apologies, there was a personal matter that I wanted to add to the bottom of this for those claiming that the Order is cheating, playing horribly, just being dicks, etc etc. I'm not going to comment on how I believe you should join to become the change you want to see. I'm not going to point out that 8/10 people quit within a week of joining the Order and finding out how horrible it is. I'm not going to point out that the LAST time I offered for people to join the Order, literally only one person took the bait. I'm not going to nudge people into finding out how absolutely OOC'ly and IC'ly taxing being an Inquisitor is. I'm just going to leave an example of how we caught someone below, without naming any names or specific situations.

A letter was found about someone. This letter had BURN AFTER READING stamped in all caps, alternating red text, before and after the letter was finished. It was there, three times, on the page itself. Not only was this letter not burned, but there was an entire collection of letters like it. All the same. BURN AFTER READING. All with terribly damning information upon it. Guys, honestly, I understand how you think the Order is cheating and using OOC information. I understand that you believe that your tracks are 100% covered. I understand how utterly frustrating it is to be a Mage. I played one for three OOC years. But you have to understand that you have to put an iota of work into being secretive, into dedicating to your OPSEC, into vetting your friends and allies. We're not good at our jobs - That much, at the very least, I absolutely agree with. We're not even good at RP. But stuff like this happens, and you literally cannot look the other way on it.

[Starstarfish]

I'll add some thoughts here. In my interpretation "theme" for TI is what is called lore or canon elsewhere. It is the documentation and what frames and defines our IC reality. It's the story framework intended by the staff vision for us to work within to tell our character's stories.

The theme of this game includes the possibility that people are heretics. If this wasn't a supported idea, staff would not have coded different religions and different prayers nor would there be on-grid places designed for those religions. There are entire books dedicated to explaining those faiths that are as in-depth as the Erra Pater. This is a supported part of theme. That someone might be friends with mages, involved with mages, etc is again - within theme, otherwise we wouldn't have a word for it IC and within theme. People can be corrupt - again that's within theme (hence why it's included as an option in staff docs.)

There's a big difference between something not being ... legal/smart/accepted/normal from the IC perspective of the Reeves/Order/widespread society and it being "unthemely." People committing crimes is themely - hence we have the Brotherhood. It is not IC legal and has potential heavy consequences if you are caught. Being a heretic (in all the various meanings of that concept) is an IC option again which may have heavy consequences. But those are valid RP venues.

Likewise, doing things that are against Lithmorran social conventions - like not wearing something on your head or sleeves or going outside of sumptuary are valid RP choices, which again may or may not come with consequences from the Reeves and/or the Order or just general harassment from other players. Things are based from the Lithmorran perspective, these are the norms that things are based on because our play is based indeed in Lithmore. Choice to play another race with other norms that can cause conflict against the standard (or seriously against the norm hence why Hillman/Charali/Daravi are by request) is to embrace the possibility of IC strife. Help racism - this conflict is intended and thus, themely. Class based discrimination is themely (too many helpfiles to mention on that one.)

There's a difference between something being "right" morally/legally IC or "right" by our modern/personal RL views and it being themely. You being personally offended/upset/bothered by something doesn't mean it's necessarily unthemely nor against policy. I have myself had to sort of choke that one done on occasion, and have done so potentially with less grace than I should have. But when people act offended IC or OOC about things that exist as factors in the theme or RP on TI, that leaves others in a really difficult spot to either break theme themselves or to put themselves in the position of the "RP police" and the potential headache and fall out for it.

And sometimes, honestly, knowing what the OOC reaction is going to be (case in point - a post suggesting full scale widespread PK based on OOC feelings) even if your PC is in the position of enforcing said theme or should be, it is honestly just not worth it. The issue isn't the enforcement of theme from my view - it's the OOC reactions and accusations that follow. It's the tells/pboards/visnet/the General channel in Discord or on OOC channel the game port/the comments at OOC meetings to explain yourself or your RP if someone else doesn't like your personal interpretation of the enforcement of the less pleasant aspects of theme.

[Leech]

For what it's worth, I don't think that theme is a thing that can be enforced so much as it is a culture. With that in mind, TI's theme wore on me very quickly. Saints vs sinners Medieval Colonial Edition can only be rehashed so many ways, and the theme remains static and unchanging. No new dialogue can be had with it because it is unchanging. My personal two cents on the issue, such as I know it (about none).

I can't quite pin down what the problem is, except that sometimes characters forgo hats and sleeves and have gratuitous mudsex.

[Rabek]

@Rothgar

Theme is not 1400s Europe. Theme is Urth. They are not the same. Urth is not as brutal as 1400s Europe was. Theme is also not "realistic" so using real life as a reason why we shouldn't strive to be thematic is a flawed argument.

As to the actual topic of the thread, I'm pretty sure staff already knows my position there. I've been very vocal. Not rehashing the argument.

[Kinaed]

Some interesting thoughts on this thread - thank you for posting.

I find myself agreeing with the following points:
- Staff cannot effectively enforce theme. Coming to staff is generally lazy. If your character notices something ICly out of whack, the tools to deal with it are either directly at your disposal or you can inform someone else responsible for enforcing some aspect of theme handle it. IE: report heresy to the Order, not staff. Please tell that Lithmorran man to wear a hat ICly, don't come to staff and ask staff to do it.
- Getting staff involved over theme usually doesn't make the situation better; it's rare anyone walks away feeling happy. Trust me, I'm in a position to know.
- That said, getting staff involved when someone is abusing, harassing, cheating, etc - that is where it's very important to come to staff.
- My experience is that, usually when Person A thinks Person B is unthematic, it's because Person B has a logical, personal reason for their behavior or choices that overrides the general culture. It's not that they don't know or respect the theme that Charali are discriminated against, but that a Charali saved their life (or something). Sometimes people should stop being judgmental and respect the fact that the dude who isn't doing what they think he ought to might have a decent reason for it. They should just respond ICly instead of OOCly blowing their top for it.
- Theme is not 1400s Europe, but Urth. That said, we are a mud set in a medieval period. Stereotypical medieval society provides tacit information where help files cannot. IE, we do not have a help file on how to prepare medieval cheese; we expect players who RP cheese making to RP about it according to what medieval standards were because that's our genre - exceptions being where explicitly stated by help files for the purpose of playability.
- PKilling anyone that someone doesn't view as thematic is anywhere from ridiculous to scary. It shows a fundamental disrespect for other people and their characters as well.
- I agree that most of the problem isn't what someone did ICly, it's the OOC hurt feelings and drama that accompanies all of the accusations.

Finally, this won't be popular - but with the deepest of respect, while it's flattering that old players who have mostly moved on still care enough about TI to watch our forums, it bothers me that they feel free to jump in and 'school' our actual, active players with their opinions. Please, play TI or regulate your presence on our forums to lurking.

[Niamh]

- My experience is that, usually when Person A thinks Person B is unthematic, it's because Person B has a logical, personal reason for their behavior or choices that overrides the general culture. It's not that they don't know or respect the theme that Charali are discriminated against, but that a Charali saved their life (or something). Sometimes people should stop being judgmental and respect the fact that the dude who isn't doing what they think he ought to might have a decent reason for it. They should just respond ICly instead of OOCly blowing their top for it.

[Puciek]

- My experience is that, usually when Person A thinks Person B is unthematic, it's because Person B has a logical, personal reason for their behavior or choices that overrides the general culture. It's not that they don't know or respect the theme that Charali are discriminated against, but that a Charali saved their life (or something). Sometimes people should stop being judgmental and respect the fact that the dude who isn't doing what they think he ought to might have a decent reason for it. They should just respond ICly instead of OOCly blowing their top for it.

A million her thousand! And if you need ideas how to react icly to "unthematic" behaviour, come to the forums and ask! I am always happy to help keep the anti-savage/barbarian antagonization going, ideally in non-killing way.

[Rabek]

I feel like there is some strawmanning going on here in this thread.

I don't think anyone is talking about reporting a guy on the street to staff for not wearing a hat. That's silly.

What we need is when it becomes a top-down problem.

When the Seneschal or GI or a noble are being unthematic, it damages the game by setting bad examples. Even worse, the majority of the pbase have no way to ICly handle this situation. You can't correct your "betters" thematically. The best they can sometimes do is try to write NPCs (that is, staff) about the problem behavior. When I talk about staff enforcement of theme, I mean using NPCs to act as examples of thematic behavior and to keep top-level PCs in-theme by providing consequences for their behavior that the playerbase at large cannot.

Mary Freeman can't accuse the Grand Inquisitor of being a heretic when she sees him going around praying for the Lord to bless people with wealth and happiness (which is unthematic and heretical). The NPC Cardinal can.

IC posts and rumors also have minimal ability for players to police and could use more staff oversight to remain in-theme. Every public post sets precedent and example. While people may have personal reasons to be unusual, when everyone is unusual there's no theme anymore.

If players get to all be special, then we need NPCs who aren't, or there's simply no context for what's special and what isn't. Most successful RPE games like TI I've played have staff puppet NPCs to provide an example of theme and consequences to player actions, as well as just offering it as a free service, when necessary, which TI charges for (RPA). It's pretty common for the genre. Calling players "lazy" for wanting staff to be less hands-off is more than a bit offensive.

I don't think anyone is asking to be able to send pboards to Kinaed going "So-and-so didn't wear a hat! Ban them!"

We're just asking for a game where theme matters, and for much of the pbase, there's nothing we can do when certain unthematic things happen. Nothing short of murder, which is a far more thematic response than some people are giving it credit for.

[Kinaed]

Rabek, I disagree that players cannot act against people "above" them. Got an unthematic GI? Subvert them and gambit them. Poison them. Frame them. The tools are around. Saying Staff should come act as theme enforcement on a players behalf is, in fact, the easy way out. Theme is woven around every single action every player takes, and players themselves need to take responsibility for their actions as well as ICly rolemodelling for others.

Staff cannot police things on the level you're requesting. There are four of us to manage the content generated by 30-odd people A DAY. Even if we narrow theme enforcement down to only GLs, the task is still huge beyond our capacity. We are not the solution and, frankly, we don't want to be. We're not screaming about so and so being unthematic, other players are. What we don't want is to be in the middle of it or weaponized by one player against another. The game you guys get is in part down to the game you want and strive to create.

Yay for other games that puppet NPCs and do a lot of hard yards enforcing theme - that's great. But I note you're playing here, so I'll take that as an indicator that things aren't perfect in that scenario either.

[Starstarfish]

I'm hesitantly posting this thought given circumstances, however if ultimately the stance is not to enforce theme via NPCs or by reporting theme concerns to staff as the preferred method (or even a desired method) of dealing with IC problems then that option being open via mail or pboards or plots should be closed. And helpfiles and policies should likely be tweaked accordingly. And as long as there are helpfiles and policy that indicate if not outright state that staff can and will actively involve themselves in that manner, it will likely for right or wrong be expected.

As long as people believe that is a valid and open venue, they will doubtless take it instead of taking other measures and keeping things within the IC play sphere. I'd argue because it is easy and comes with little to no risk of failure or risk of consequences for themselves. I've seen it used by people as a threat ICly and OOCly to control the decisions of other players. As such, if the strong decision is that is no longer valid or desired, things should be in my humble opinion, tweaked to make that more clear.