Ingame Travel and Infrastructure

[chronodbu]

This is a bit of a dead horse that's been beaten regularly, which I acknowledge. To start beating the dead horse again...

I think there's a problem in just how severe the effect the infrastructure city metric has on MV drain in the city. The main argument that I see against getting rid of this feature is that we should work to improve the stat through RP. This really has been tried multiple, countless, times since City Report was put into effect and it's perpetually still tanked. The stat just doesn't budge for more than one or two ticks before going right back down. Sure, maybe some players are intentionally tanking it for their assets. Maybe they aren't. Them doing that is cool, but the playability problem of the effect remains.

My point is: It's not fun as a game mechanic. I tend to think mechanics should mostly follow one of two guidelines: furthering the enjoyment of the player experience or driving meaningful conflict. Having a harder time going places isn't fun or meaningful. It's drudgery.

The attached point: It's not going to be fun for new players. As it currently stands, you can walk from one shop to another and be unable to move another step without changing your pace to "crawl." New players have 2 rations to start out, not a lot of knowhow, and it doesn't do a lot to encourage them to go anywhere and explore if they can't move. If you can't look at where, pick a spot, and go to it for RP because you're out of MV after half a street and can't move, the interest seems likely to wane.

Complaining without offering an idea to fix it sucks, so I'd like to put our heads together to come up with some other effect for tanked Infrastructure than MV drain, assuming there's agreement that it's a problem in the first place.

Does anyone have any ideas? I'm going to try to think of some.

[Taunya]

It's most definitely being subverted, and it is driving conflict in my opinion.
I think all of the problems can be handled ICly myself.

Food can be donated to the almshouses for newbies, might be a fun event!

[Voxumo]

I kind of have to agree with Chrono here. When class relations are low, shop npcs won't sell to certain classes. This creates rp where you have to find someone who meets that criteria. I know I did this plenty on Vicannia when Class Relations tanked. However infrastructure tanking doesn't open nearly as much rp as some of the others. MV draining leads to "Well bugger, guess I ain't going to that scene if I can't make it there." Lord forbid a scene is on the opposite side of the city from you, and you don't have a food item in your inventory. Sure there might be some who find rp around it, but overall I think it harms more than it does good. On top of that it reinforces the nasty habit of mowing down on food as you travel. Never been a fan of that, and it's actually against policy to do that when it comes to combat and whatnot... So definitely not something that should be encouraged.

I also very much think Seneschals might be getting tired of being lambasted everytime that specific metric gets low, and it has been a problem with every Seneschal, at least to my knowledge. I really miss the days of Seneschals being able to see what GLs and Nobles were supporting or subverting.

However I do think very low Infrastructure should affect something. Perhaps it could play into phome taxes or something similar to that? Maybe locations that were already dangerous become even more dangerous, such as the rooftops?

EDIT: Thought of another way low infrastructure could affect the game. Certain exits on the grid are blocked. For example, if infrastructure is low, maybe the northern exit of the crossroads becomes blocked due to road damage or sink holes, which would means folks would have to take an alternative route to reach the Queen's Inn, which alternative routes exist. This could lead people to discovering new locations they didn't know exist. Afterall I'm certain we all use travel to get to some of the most frequent places, so if something came up that disrupted travel, leads us to have to find new ways around it.

Heck maybe of a similar vein the travel command is disabled at super low infrastructure?

[Taunya]

I find a lot of RP around it myself. It's lead to a lot of scenes around horse trading, rentals, and riding training for one, which I very rarely got before. And some other interesting things that I can't say for IC/OOC reasons.

Having a metric as low as Infrastructure has been is meant to be impactful to everyone. But no other metrics have ever hit this low, to my knowledge. If morale was this low, it'd likely be next to impossible to improve skills for example. It gives good motivation for people to push towards a goal of raising it- granted that's rather difficult to do as-is which has lead it to stagnate, and needs to made easier. The Noble Projects spec and others are supposed to address that.

To the edit: Those would be a reasonable alternatives that would affect everyone, rather than just those who own phomes or jump around rooftoops. Would they really be any better than a mv penalty though?

[Voxumo]

I find a lot of RP around it myself. It's lead to a lot of scenes around horse trading, rentals, and riding training for one, which I very rarely got before. And some other interesting things that I can't say for IC/OOC reasons.

Having a metric as low as Infrastructure has been is meant to be impactful to everyone. But no other metrics have ever hit this low, to my knowledge. If morale was this low, it'd likely be next to impossible to improve skills for example. It gives good motivation for people to push towards a goal of raising it- granted that's rather difficult to do as-is which has lead it to stagnate, and needs to made easier. The Noble Projects spec and others are supposed to address that.

To the edit: Those would be a reasonable alternatives that would affect everyone, rather than just those who own phomes or jump around rooftoops. Would they really be any better than a mv penalty though?

See your horse riding thing... It's not much better than spamming food. Plus horse riding is typically something that would be reserved to nobility and gentry who can afford it, Thematically that is. There was a time when everyone and their brother owned a horse, yet only had ride up to the minimum to not get bucked off or go to random locations. I'd rather it not become a norm to pick up a skill just to bypass a coded hassle, completely ignoring theme.

And yes, other metrics have been this low. When class relations tanked, there were events where riots were held. However such events didn't happen often because metrics didn't get as low very often. Infrastructure is ALWAYS low.

As for would my alternatives be any better than an mv penalty? Yes they would. Not many other aspects of the game rely on traveling. Infact you'd never have to actually use Travel to play the game. MV on the other hand is vital to the game, as it governs what your character is able to do, from combat, leveling skills, magery, travelling... It governs alot in the game. The only inconvenience my suggestion would cause is a lack of convenience, as that is exactly what the travel command is, a command of convenience.

I should clarify that when I say the travel command, I do mean both my suggestions. Key exits being blocked and travel being disabled all together.

Unlike MV Drain which can negatively affect one's ability to rp, blocking key exits or removing the travel command would cause people to have to go room by room, which leads to possibly discovering something they didn't notice before. I don't know how many things I've missed while using the travel command, only to go back and see it in my feed. On top of that, it could encourage shops that are in odd locations to maybe get more traffic if people have to use side roads/back roads to get to where they need to be. It encourages alot more than just the spending of silver.

I mentioned the MV Drain negatively affecting one's ability to rp, and I feel I should clarify that. Recently we had the scene where the queen died in the palace. The day that occured, I legitimately took about ten minutes to try and decide if going to said event was worth the costs, as I was travelling all the way from the southside. I ended up deciding to go, but had to spend around 200 silver just to ensure I could get there without having ZERO mv. Took one whole Iron ration for me to get there. Not to mention I didn't have any to get back. Yes I could have crawled, but that's horrifically unthematic and unrealistic. Thank god there was food being served at that event, or else I would have had to sleep in the palace to regain enough mv to get back in a reasonable time.

If I've had to make the hard decision on saving two weeks asset payout on my character or attending a scene, odds are I'm not the only one. So how many people have forfeited an event or a scene because they could not afford to get to the scene?

I'm sorry if I seem a bit rantish, I'm just very against this MV drain, considering it's been a constant these last few months. If it was a sporadic thing, like horrifically low metrics should be, it wouldn't be as big of an issue, but it hasn't, it has been a near constant.



If I had to outline my main suggestion, it would go something like this.

Staff make a list of exits on grid that are frequently traveled, but that blocking that exit would not cut off that section of the grid entirely.
The lower Infrastructure got, code would randomly pick from that list and block those exits. Maybe it would start with just one exit, and keep adding on the lower it got.
Maybe at it's lowest all of the crossroads exits would be blocked, and perhaps two of the four city gates.

[Taunya]

See your horse riding thing... It's not much better than spamming food. Plus horse riding is typically something that would be reserved to nobility and gentry who can afford it, Thematically that is. There was a time when everyone and their brother owned a horse, yet only had ride up to the minimum to not get bucked off or go to random locations. I'd rather it not become a norm to pick up a skill just to bypass a coded hassle, completely ignoring theme.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horses_in ... sportation
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_o ... strial_Age

Historically, horses were quite available to all classes, if not owned, then rented. Even peasants would have access to a horse to do their daily toil, and are lower class than freemen, the lowest class playable in TI. Horses were the backbone of trade and industry in Medieval times.

And yes, other metrics have been this low. When class relations tanked, there were events where riots were held. However such events didn't happen often because metrics didn't get as low very often. Infrastructure is ALWAYS low.

Checked my log- you're right. Looks like Class Relations is the only other metric that's hit that low, and that's when we had the riots. Some other events have kicked in for being the lowest at the time, but not Terrible.

[Voxumo]

See your horse riding thing... It's not much better than spamming food. Plus horse riding is typically something that would be reserved to nobility and gentry who can afford it, Thematically that is. There was a time when everyone and their brother owned a horse, yet only had ride up to the minimum to not get bucked off or go to random locations. I'd rather it not become a norm to pick up a skill just to bypass a coded hassle, completely ignoring theme.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horses_in ... sportation
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_o ... strial_Age

Historically, horses were quite available to all classes, if not owned, then rented. Even peasants would have access to a horse to do their daily toil, and are lower class than freemen, the lowest class playable in TI. Horses were the backbone of trade and industry in Medieval times.

Fair enough, however reading through your linked sources, one key thing came up. The lower class used horses for field work, transportation of goods, and getting from one city to the other, not for getting from point a to b in the same city. So while perhaps it did not come down to a matter of cost, my point still remains, horses were for longer distances, not for casual strolls through the city.

[Taunya]

Real medieval cities were too small to bother with horses for the most part. The City of London for example was almost exactly 1 square mile, with a population of 50,000-100,000. Probably quicker to walk than to saddle up to go most places if you didn't have a burden to carry. Lithmore city feels a lot larger and spread out. Use of horses within it by anyone who has one makes sense to me at least.

[chronodbu]

Your argument that even a peasant would have access to do their daily toil is rather misleading.

At most, an entire family might own or rent one horse and that horse would be one of the most precious things they had. As TI's system currently handles -owning- horses, one can't really use this as an example.

As for it benefitting you. Yes, the system greatly benefits you. Key word - You. That's great, really. You've gamed it well and that's awesome, but if the current system is only providing something enjoyable/meaningful to a very small subset of the pbase then it really doesn't feel like it would work for the pbase as a whole to me.

I don't want to have to own a horse on every one of my characters just to be able to get around the city. It doesn't feel thematic to me, and it doesn't feel fun. It feels like an arbitrary tax to whoever the horse breeders are which requires multiple weeks worth of my assets or a lot of my hard work put into getting crafting professions to anything feasible enough to make gold off of.

My suggestion wasn't even to cut out the mv drain entirely, it's to soften it to something bearable, and anything to make the newbie player experience easier when they have a rather large learning curve already is a plus as far as I'm concerned.

Admittedly, if it was possible, I actually rather enjoy Voxumo's idea. The idea that roads are closed off because a building was deemed dangerous with plans to be handled, or the cobblestones had been upturned, or a sinkhole even that had to be addressed, is something incredibly interesting to me because not only is it just an ambiguous MV penalty, it'd be something -interesting- to talk about in character and fascinating to find new ways around, Newbies get a map of Lithmore when they join, so it'd even allow them to search out alternate routes by using that!

Plus, it'd still make horses very viable. It's just faster to get around on horseback, and you'd still be taking extra time to get places if you had to go around stuff, it just wouldn't be as punishing as the MV drain as it is right now.

[Evrald]

Ok so... I'm just gonna throw in my two cents here. I've got a character on grid, there is free food at the Almshouse more often than not for those who need it to help get around. This comes back to an IC Problems/IC Consequences thing, there's no need to change the system that's been working fine, it's rough on people yes, but if you get your guildleaders to vote, you get IP and vote and everything you will improve the metric, at the cost of other metrics. That's all there is to it. Health was at the highest it's been for a long time but it's slowly going down now.