Mages and confessions

[Taunya]

At an IC level, especially with Rothgar, I would be more than happy to sacrifice my piety and/or my life to protect those around me and those I love from someone I viewed as a dangerous Mage. I would, without hesitation, turn in a Mage who confessed to killing and being a Mage, even if that meant my excommunication and pyring.

I think that just shows that he would have been a good Inquisitor, but a bad Priest.

That Priests are held to this standard I think is great for RP, it would make them viewed more as trustworthy. "If they'll even keep the worst kind of sinner's secrets safe, surely I can tell them what I did."

What brought up the topic this time, is that some feel those who choose a priestly path should not be able to become inquisitors later, carrying with them the secrets that an Inquisitor would be obligated to act on.

[Geras]

At an IC level, especially with Rothgar, I would be more than happy to sacrifice my piety and/or my life to protect those around me and those I love from someone I viewed as a dangerous Mage. I would, without hesitation, turn in a Mage who confessed to killing and being a Mage, even if that meant my excommunication and pyring.

I think that just shows that he would have been a good Inquisitor, but a bad Priest.

That Priests are held to this standard I think is great for RP, it would make them viewed more as trustworthy. "If they'll even keep the worst kind of sinner's secrets safe, surely I can tell them what I did."

What brought up the topic this time, is that some feel those who choose a priestly path should not be able to become inquisitors later, carrying with them the secrets that an Inquisitor would be obligated to act on.

Trouble is colluding with a mage makes you a bad Davite, but a good priest.

[chronodbu]

You can't really compare priests to doctors. You need to instead compare them to RL Catholic Priests if you're really going to make a correlation here. In such cases, it actually is something that can break the oath of the confessional if a Priest went to the police about a murder, etc, and while moral feelings on it are definitely one thing - we're talking religion here.

That said, I really like the concept of the confessional being the way it is currently and don't feel it needs to be changed. People don't play Priests because either a) it just isn't their cup of tea or b) Inquisitors are more interesting to them. It has nothing to do with difficulty of playing one, it's moreso the vein of RP just not being a commonly fun one for most MUD players.

Religion is always kind of this way in MUDs. Playing religious leaders is hard and there really isn't much way around this.

[The_Last_Good_Dragon]

Trouble is colluding with a mage makes you a bad Davite, but a good priest.

A Priest who does not report a mage to a higher up is, thematically, being both a good Davite and a good priest. They are maybe not being a good HUMAN, wherein lies a lot of the fun conflict potential of playing Priest. In Davism, the sacred silence of a priest regarding confession and the cleansing associated with it is seen as a truly divine thing, a necessity for a healthy Community. If the Community cannot trust that ALL confessions are held to a sacred seal, how can they trust that smaller secrets aren't also being shared around at the community's expense? A Priest who breaks confession for ANY REASON short of through the Cardinal's decree — and then, only in what could only be described as exceedingly rare circumstances, likely involving suspicion of foul-play from the Priest who is hiding misdeeds behind the excuse of Confessional Seal — is, in the Davite Faith, commiting a huge heresy that risks immediate excommunication.

A lot of the discussion troubling me here come down to two assumptions: (1) that all Priests become Inquisitors. This is markedly not true — FUN FACT, the FOUR most recent Grand Inquisitors NEVER WERE PRIESTS. Arlow was promoted from Acolyte, Athyndriel from Earl Marshal, Farra from Acolyte, and Sibylle from Acolyte straight to Inquisitor due to IC reasons. These would be the exceedingly rare cases, but generally an Orderite who really wants to play Inquisitor and shows the understanding of theme to do such will get moved into that position quickly, as Inquisitor is one of the most fundamentally necessary non-GL positions on the game given the theme. We have had many priests not go on to be Inquisition; I can't speak of why they no longer play, unfortunately, but I do not think it was because they lacked things to do.

(2) People assuming that a mage telling someone that they are a mage should not have IC recourse. Guys, you can pine opinions all you want to, but any mage who does not go to the Pyre is committing a heresy. It's one of the few Davite things that is not AT ALL up for debate. Magic isn't just the potential to become a Demon, it actively generates The Taint, which Davism says is an anathema to the Lord of Springs. It is the antimatter to the Lord. The Lord's mercy and purity cannot exist where the taint is. The taint is a very real thing that spreads just by existing. A mage who does not seek cleansing immediately is willfully spreading the taint to their neighbors. A priest who fails to convince a mage to go to the Inquisition is failing the community by allowing that taint to spread — and, in that failure, might seek to draw taint to themselves, to 'sacrafice their soul' for the safety of others. An Inquisitor who fails to capture and pyre wayward mages is failing all those who are touched by the taint and become corrupted by it.

As a modern example, I would equate it to a modern-day Christian not asking forgiveness for their sins. They know it's the only way to get forgiven for it, and if they die their soul does not go to heaven, except in this case it's even more extreme as their soul is warped into a thing that feasts on their brethren for forever and ever. Except forgiveness is death, and people like to live; but just as no "proper / good" christian would be able to validate their lack of prayer/forgiveness, a "proper / good" davite who was a mage could not justify, in any reasonable capacity, their retisence to becoming pyred. They can feel guilty, yes, but every breath they take that they are not pyred they would have been taught is a breath taken in generating the Taint that literally banishes the goodness of the Lord of Springs and invites ruin into the world. It's a serious thing. A serious thing above each and all-together the other sins. No other sin, thematically, carries a death sentence.

Officially I understand that Priests would thematically be instructed to, if they did take the confession from someone that they were a mage, would be to halt the confession and inform the person that they need to go talk to an Inquisitor. The 'Church Correct' thing to do would not be to offer their own guidance, as Priests do not receive training on how to deal with this sin. The Inquisitor's job is to both contain the person correctly so that the taint does not spread, and to convince the person to go willingly to the pyre so that their soul can be more completely purified and find the Fontis afterwards. Someone dragged unwillingly to the Pyre would not go to the Fontis and enjoy that splendor, but would at least be spared the damnation of being a mage, so still a positive outcome. Inquisitors don't keep Mages for long, because doing so risks them escaping or the taint seeping out to others around them.

[Helena]

Someone dragged unwillingly to the Pyre would not go to the Fontis and enjoy that splendor, but would at least be spared the damnation of being a mage

I'm glad you agree with that idea! But it might worth noting that one of my acolyte was qualified heretic for saying this to a GI. Imagine your acolyte saying innocently this to her GI, and hear in answer "That's an heretical belief. As it is, you're not able to become a priestess." That's why another of my acolyte wrote a book about that, to give to that interpretation of the Lore a possibility to exist.

So, as it is, that idea is Purity's thesis. And although we may think it's convincing, it's not an OOC truth.

People don't play Priests because either a) it just isn't their cup of tea or b) Inquisitors are more interesting to them. It has nothing to do with difficulty of playing one, it's moreso the vein of RP just not being a commonly fun one for most MUD players.

That's obviously wrong, because there are people willing to play priests. I mean, not only me.

[The_Last_Good_Dragon]

Someone dragged unwillingly to the Pyre would not go to the Fontis and enjoy that splendor, but would at least be spared the damnation of being a mage

I'm glad you agree with that idea! But it might worth noting that one of my acolyte was qualified heretic for saying this to a GI. Imagine your acolyte saying innocently this to her GI, and hear in answer "That's an heretical belief. As it is, you're not able to become a priestess." That's why another of my acolyte wrote a book about that, to give to that interpretation of the Lore a possibility to exist.

So, as it is, that idea is Purity's thesis. And although we may think it's convincing, it's not an OOC truth.

Davism is ALSO a very complex thing; people — even at the top — are very prone to believe different things. Farra did not profess a belief that an unrepentant mage saw a different outcome as a repentant one. In a priestly position, it very often matters how one says things — the most effective ministers are often not those who spend their time on the technicalities of faith but find ways to connect to others. Again, while Davism is not a mirror of any IRL religion, one need only look at the complexities and discussions around every major religion so as to understand how a GI might have a slightly different belief than what it expressed in the limited available documentation we have for the religion.

tl;dr - nobody is 'OOCly wrong' to have these small, non-ground-breaking differentiation. As Taunya (I think it was) mentioned, a big part of playing someone who has ideals differing from their superiors is showing proper differentiation to them in the moment. We can't control how other players choose to have their characters view our characters — and, sometimes, we don't grasp how we come across. Thinking 'I want to do X' and moving forwards with that sometimes misses the mark entirely .. which is fine, because that's where character drama and conflict and resolution are found, when the unexpected forces us to change.

[Starstarfish]

We can't control how other players choose to have their characters view our characters — and, sometimes, we don't grasp how we come across.

I would humbly argue that this is a difficulty we are currently struggling with as a community and have for a time.

Wherein when people aren't seen/understood the way they want to be by another character(s), and this misunderstanding has negative consequences rather than deal with that situation ICly, it is dealt with in the OOC sphere. Over osays, over tells, on the forums, over visnet, over Guild channels. I've had people propose in front of staff that if someone doesn't understand their characters motives/reasoning they should be asked OOCly for it to make sure they are coming across how they intend/want to. (Which staff of course noted is not allowed.)

Case in point ... this thread wherein arguably recent, arguably still active RP is now being discussed, dissected, and commented on in the OOC realm. Of late this seems IMHO to happen too often where things get taken to the Court of Public Opinion rather than dealt with ICly. Wherein folks then feel the compulsion to defend their characters and their decisions OOCly, and that is honestly from experience very tiring.

[Voxumo]

Case in point ... this thread wherein arguably recent, arguably still active RP is now being discussed, dissected, and commented on in the OOC realm. Of late this seems IMHO to happen too often where things get taken to the Court of Public Opinion rather than dealt with ICly. Wherein folks then feel the compulsion to defend their characters and their decisions OOCly, and that is honestly from experience very tiring.

Why don't we have a +1 button yet for posts on this forum?

[Starstarfish]

On that note, I honestly feel like this recurring unending phantom fear of not wanting to do X thematic thing because Y might happen is getting to be all but crippling. The shadow of doubt at other people's motives on the OOC at this point has taken away so many things (Top Ten Activity names, displayed last names except for Guildleaders, etc etc) it is beginning to create a palpable taste where fear is a main drive towards decision making.

Playing a mage or those who get involved with magery comes with the risk of discovery and via that discovery, the good possibility of death. That is a lynchpin to our theme and something on which we advertise and promote this game to others. Every time we debate a way to somehow water that down to make it less risky or more friendly, I honestly feel like something is lost. Every time people introduce into the meta consciousness this idea that Orderites cannot be trusted and confession isn't worth it/is too risky/ etc etc, we take away from core RP to the game.

This recurring focus and rehash that's been going on for months now, on visnet, on General boards, on the forums, at meetings on how mages should be able to confess they are a mage to Priests. I'll ask again ... what is the actual desired outcome of that argument? There has been ... one non-Inquisitor active qualified Priest during the time these arguments started. So at this point we are discussing what a phantom no one should or should not do.

[Helena]

Hey Starstarfish,

That thread did not begun as part of a mage VS order discussion, but as part of a clergy VS inquisition discussion. The case of confession only came up as an example of things where the inquisition forces an interpretation of the theme which may be an impediment to the flourishing of the clergy. That is, at least, what I am discussing about here.

Such discussions will always hurt the current RP, because there's always someone involved somehow. But staff thought worth discussing those things. So, I am sharing my experience because I think it is revealing difficulties. I can assure you that I understand how that discussion could interfere with my current RP, and that I do my best, ICly, to avoid this. And I think everyone does the same.