Lithmorran Superiority - Is It a Thing?

[Giles]

Post edited because there was IC info. The subject pretty much says it all.

[Giles]

A quick note. I was going to bring this up at the meeting today, but I have a celebration to attend so will not be able to make it -- anyone may feel free to do so, however. I won't be ay any of today's events, either, but I should be around tomorrow for that Court thing.

[Rothgar]

To be perfectly frank, I believe that you're confusing an IC matter with an OOC one. I'm well aware of the event that you're referencing. While it doesn't necessarily detract from the statement that you're making - that TI:L is supposed to be a "Lithmorran First," environment and that people simply aren't RP'ing that - but it bares noting that the particular case that you reference more than likely happened for an IC reason, not necessarily out of an OOC wont to not be racist. As an example, Rothgar quite literally openly advocated for the genocide of "lesser races," and - perhaps more famously - the entirety of Southside at a Council Meeting, and met very little resistance from players of those races, even IC'ly. Indeed, I received many an OOC encouragement for playing such an avid, horrible person, and I look back on my time with that character very, very fondly.

With that said, we have had this thread before. Multiple times. I believe in each and every one, we note that while individuals aren't beholden to the "Lithmorran First," ideal (as has been said before, you cannot force people to be racist, just as you cannot - in theory - force any one person to RP a certain way, only encourage it), but the code certainly is, and has been demonstrably so over the course of the last few years, especially with the addition of "No barbarian races in GL spots," and the new "race relations" city Metric, which, when low, encourages NPC's to yell obscenities at "wrong" races. Of course, I don't disparage you for stating your frustration with the lack of open racism in the game - as I noted, it's a thread that we've had many, many times - and I believe that from an OOC standpoint you're mostly correct. With that being said, I firmly believe that code accurately represents the anti-not-Lithmorran sentiment within the Barony, and that your disenchantment lies mostly with the people that you're RP'ing with and around, and that is, unfortunately, something that cannot truly be changed.

[Giles]

Post edited because of IC info. Again, I was just seeking input. As was pointed out, I was beating a dead horse by posting this.

[The_Last_Good_Dragon]

There are, however, little aspects of the theme that impact PCs in a big, big way -- and a little clarifying from staff would be helpful. For example, what constitutes the sort of sin you absolutely HAVE to confess to a PC, for example?

From 'help Sins' —

(Note: It's fine for you to RP your character as receiving confession from an NPC, so long as the sins are minor and you confess to a PC Orderite occasionally.  Use your best judgment on what you feel is "minor.")

My rule has always been that if a Sin involves either another player as an accomplice or victim, it shouldn't be Confessed to NPC priests and not to a Player. This rule exists to keep people from "hiding" RP behind vNPC sources, or to use NPCs in an effort to justify their character's behavior in a way which counters theme. For example, if a Mage PC confessed to a Priest PC their maginess and that Priest then encouraged them to commit bad actions against "Sinners", if this came out it could be a really awesome RP point. If the same Mage PC "confessed" to an NPC Priest and used this to justify the same behavior, that RP suddenly becomes much more flat and lame.

It comes down to: You should not be using NPCs to 'force' your character into certain behavioral habits that impact other players. Minor sins are ones that any person can be expected to encounter in life. Everyone lies, everyone is quarrelsome, everyone has Acedia at some point. My personal definition is that the first 4 Sins — Magery, Heresy, Murder, and Betrayal — constitute "major" sins, with Fornication Without Blessing counting as such in certain situations (a Vavardi, for instance, likely doesn't consider fornication without blessing as a major sin).

The simple truth is that the rules surrounding confessing to NPC priests exist for twofold reasons: (1) to protect the Orderites from people dictating Orderite RP by excusing certain type of RP by avoiding interaction with Orderite PCs, and (2) to make sure people can be playing "Thematically" by not having to bog down Orderite RP with 24/7 confession.

You CAN always choose to have a Priest "recommend further Confession" up the chain of command, to qualify both that your character DID tell a Priest about the Sin in RP but to get ahold of a PC Orderite for actual RP and Consequence. Recently, I got ahold of the current GI about arranging a Confession scene, asking for permission to write a letter from the perspective of the NPC Priest that my character confesses to.

I'll just use myself as an example, and it is sort of a weird one because I basically play a married couple. If they sat around in private and idly joked about someone choking on his/her own vomit and dying, is that a sin that I need to go to Sibylle about? Or could I just vNPC priest that away and claim he said "oh, well, everyone has those thoughts" before giving them a bunch of prayers to recite?

Personally, in regard to "racism", I'd rather it be enforced via actual RP or just removed from the theme altogether.[/quote]

I'll just use myself as an example, and it is sort of a weird one because I basically play a married couple. If they sat around in private and idly joked about someone choking on his/her own vomit and dying, is that a sin that I need to go to Sibylle about?

This is very debatably not a Sin. Davism doesn't really support the idea that thinking something bad, or joking something bad, is a sin. A priest might regard this type of behavior as a Behavior which Encourages Sin, thusly something that needs to be corrected, but I think you might be confusing some IRL religions with Davism — which happens a lot! I do it a bunch, too; took me awhile to wrap my head around Davism Excommunication, for instance.

Or could I just vNPC priest that away and claim he said "oh, well, everyone has those thoughts" before giving them a bunch of prayers to recite?

However, yes, most people would agree that something like that would be a "minor" sin.

Personally, in regard to "racism", I'd rather it be enforced via actual RP or just removed from the theme altogether.

A noble can order a commoner (Gentry or Freeman) whipped for literally any reason, and thematically the Reeves must honor this request. If someone isn't giving the respect Giles feels like he deserves, you have the power to enforce this via actual RP. There doesn't need to be a "crime" committed—however, there is a PURPOSEFUL IC disharmony between many Noble powers and Davite expectations. Davism is not an inherently racist religion. The only special qualification to Lithmorrans by the religion is that Lithmorrans can visit the "Upper Springs" and all others must visit "The Lower Springs" on their required pilgrimage. This is more out of respect to Dav himself as Prophet-King of the Faith than a belief that other races are inherently inferior. Davism teaches that nobles should not abuse their power, but obviously this isn't always the case.

Also, just because you are not seeing Racism in action doesn't mean that it isn't happening, and how players choose to express that racism can differ. Lithmore City is literally the melting pot of this Kingdom — people in it are exposed to other races at a far more pronounced clip than anywhere else in the world, and therefore it's certainly to be expected that racism is more muted there that it exists off-grid. By emphasizing certain elements of theme as more pronounced off-grid, it enables players to justify their character's behaviors — and for other PCs to choose whether their characters justify behaviors in the same fashion. In a general sense, theme suggests that only those playing Hillmen and Charali (and Daravi, when that happens) to EXPECT racism to be a foundational conflict for their RP.

This shouldn't stop people from making scenarios where their PCs feel superior to others based on the Duchy they were born in, especially for nobles. I'm confident many people can attest that Farra dul Baildana felt that Vavard was superior to all other Duchies and that this bled through at times in her RP. Farra also felt that the Farin and Tubori were only a small step above Charalin and Hillmen, though she couldn't explicitly state these prejudices as often as she felt them due to her concern with public image (Yes, she was concerned with that! ). She was a woman who at times employed Charalin in her Retainers in order to "Keep Face" but, when issues of Charalin treatment came up, tended to try to repress them down. (Which other players might be able to attest to, and is also reflected in the Hevstina domain file.)

Also, the Queen has already commented about Lithmorran Superiorty, after a fashion, by opening up the recent Baronical Council Vote to all Duchies, where thematically this has been a Lithmorran-only power. A "traditionalist" Lithmorran noble might be very miffed at this, where-as nobles of other Duchies might see this as the dying motions of that thematic Lithmorran superiority. Certainly, the past 40 or so IC years (time dictated by actual RP) supports this notion that Lithmore relies more on outer Duchies than they might care to admit, like the US State of Texas relying on the rest of the United States more than it cares to admit.

[Giles]

Team Farra -- thank you for that, as it is has given me stuff to think about! In particular, I like this part about the Queen, Lithmorran superiority, and the Baronial Council: 'A "traditionalist" Lithmorran noble might be very miffed at this, where-as nobles of other Duchies might see this as the dying motions of that thematic Lithmorran superiority'.

That is an insightful comment, and I appreciate it.

I also appreciate your clarifying that thinking something isn't really a sin.

[Starstarfish]

I have to admit and I hinted at it at the OOC meeting, but there's been a trend the past year or for RP incidents to spark OOC discussions that sort of have that air of disclaimer of "not inspired by a true events" like an episode of Law and Order when you know full well the RL sensational news story it's based on. I will admit that being in the OOC realm and feeling the need to explain or justify RP is awkward and it spreads thin the line of whether this is the -character- having a problem with some of certain thing or this is the feeling of the -player-.

Furthermore, no one other than one character (I can think of) is actually racist.

How do you, for example know what other people think or feel? How do you know what inspires each of their decisions? People do not always RP their character more open about their feelings in a way that matches what you want/expect. But potentially, people are being this way and you miss subtle hunts and clues. Without getting too political, it's a bit like RL where few people will indeed says "I have X people," but you figure things out by them saying things like, "X people are always Y" or "You are pretty Y for an X person." I can without a doubt tell you this does happen.

There are some fairly active racist rumors and rumor comments, that is one way some of those folks are participating in that RP.

Honestly, if he were to hear about a Lithmorran marrying a foreigner (amongst the gentry/nobility), he would probably think: "What, you couldn't get a Lithmorran spouse?"

Both of the present and the last Queen married "foreigners" for the purpose of political alliance, so I'd imagine that would be a thing he's also aware of.

He is also sort of weirded out that pretty much every GL in the city is from another Duchy.

First remember that the 1st GL positions do not represent just the -city- they represent the entire Kingdom and thus the entire Kingdom is being drawn in.

I know we're not supposed to share IC info here, so I'll be vague, but Giles doesn't consider a baron from a foreign land his equal. He certainly doesn't consider an untitled noble from a foreign land an equal.

Which might be true overall but whom ICly is in a position to agree with that? Freemen, Gentry, even Guildleaders who rely on those other nobles for support and silver would be a bit suicidal to trash them openly and could very much expect it to be a trap for a noble to try and encourage such talk himself.

[Starstarfish]

Personally, in regard to "racism", I'd rather it be enforced via actual RP or just removed from the theme altogether.

Enforced in what manner? Again, this recurring idea of late that if people don't X the way I feel people should we should just change theme I honestly feel is sort of an extreme reaction.

[Balistir]

So I don't know what the hell is going on here but I'm throwing in my two cents... Racism is 100% perfectly fine. It's used quite frequently. Infact it's thrown around enough that the Charalin are abused, Tubori are called drunkards(even gentry) and in general people are shit on. What's this about Racism needing to be enforced? It's already being enforced by the players. It doesn't need anything more than that.