So, one of the pieces which the Order has been thinking of and which I have decided to take the helm on is the concept of having a "religious life" part of the Order. Abbeys and the like have always been understood as part of the Order but haven't been played (to my knowledge) very much.
Well, that is beginning to change. We have an Abbey in Wilhelm now which is going to be consecrated and phased into use for the game and we also have a new character who happens to be a friar. All of this has gotten me going on ideas for the concept and I have personally volunteered and been given the helm for the Abbey project.
So, now we are left to decide how we are going to run all these things and how it will all work. My "vision" of sorts for abbeys is for monks and nuns to be more inclined towards a sort of "friar" concept insofar as they won't be cloistered. This will prevent enclosed RP and allow them and you to RP pretty freely and will open up lots of options. Pretty much, these are priests and consecrated lay people dedicated very strongly to a specific pastoral mission, especially in a "physical" manner. (like dedication to helping the poor, building Churches, writing pieces, specified preaching) as well as staffing another church in the area.
An objection has been raised to the idea of monks, which I will admit, has some validity in my view. The person was nervous about the idea not being very thematic and too close to an idea of "Fantasy Catholicism" for his taste. Consider this when you give feedback.
So far, I have given some thought to the ranks and robes to be worn by the monks/nuns.
Novice: New monk/nun. Wears a brown robe with black trim, no wimple or skullcap.
Monk/Nun: Professed monk/nun. Wears brown robe with black trim as well as a brown wimple/skullcap.
Choir Monk/Nun: Monk/Nun who is also a priest, the leadership for the abbey and also the well respected monks. Wear a brown robe with white trim as well as the normal black skullcap/wimple.
Abbot/Abbess: Leader of the abbey, wears white robes with red trim as well as the normal skullcap/simple and a pewter chalice and ring.
The abbey could have several purposes in RP:
-Penance
-Place for prayer, to spend time away from the city
-Meeting place or clergy that is away from the Cathedral
-Alternate source of clergy, support not so bent on the Inquisitorial aspect or the suppression of mages.
So what are your thoughts on all this? What kind of things do you want to see the abbey doing and what RP do you want to be engaged in with monks and nuns?
Abbots, Nuns, and Friars, Oh my!
I like the idea, and think it is quite thematic, personally.
One thing that you mention is the possibility of using it as a retreat, and I'd just like to expand on that. It was quite common, I believe for higher born women to enter a nunnery as a retreat from the world; perhaps she's a widow, recently had a conflict of faith and needs to recharge the faith batteries. Or perhaps she's simply being put out of sight and mind by family or in-laws. They wouldn't necessarily become full nuns for that matter, perhaps entering for a period of time before returning to her life and taking off the nun's robe. Naturally, the same services would be offered to men as well. Is this general idea viable, or would membership/residence of the abbey be restricted to Orderites only?
One historical thing if one looks, for example, at Venice at her most debauced is the use of nunneries as houses of ill repute/brothels- but I don't expect we'll be going there.
Personally, I'm not bothered by any similarities to Catholicism, because it is pretty hard to escape really given TI's themes, but could focus on the fact that Davism is an elemental (water/fire based) religion. I'd personally give some clothing freedom to the Abbot/Abbess; since there is only one of them, there is less need for a 'uniform', and given their placement, they'd probably quite influential in the community in the upper gentry range, on par with an Inquisitior or a full knight.
Anyway, I like the idea and have no word against it.
One thing that you mention is the possibility of using it as a retreat, and I'd just like to expand on that. It was quite common, I believe for higher born women to enter a nunnery as a retreat from the world; perhaps she's a widow, recently had a conflict of faith and needs to recharge the faith batteries. Or perhaps she's simply being put out of sight and mind by family or in-laws. They wouldn't necessarily become full nuns for that matter, perhaps entering for a period of time before returning to her life and taking off the nun's robe. Naturally, the same services would be offered to men as well. Is this general idea viable, or would membership/residence of the abbey be restricted to Orderites only?
One historical thing if one looks, for example, at Venice at her most debauced is the use of nunneries as houses of ill repute/brothels- but I don't expect we'll be going there.
Personally, I'm not bothered by any similarities to Catholicism, because it is pretty hard to escape really given TI's themes, but could focus on the fact that Davism is an elemental (water/fire based) religion. I'd personally give some clothing freedom to the Abbot/Abbess; since there is only one of them, there is less need for a 'uniform', and given their placement, they'd probably quite influential in the community in the upper gentry range, on par with an Inquisitior or a full knight.
Anyway, I like the idea and have no word against it.
I was thinking that while Orderites would be the primary staffers of the abbey, non-Orderites would definitely be welcome to take time in retreat, etc. Nobles and those of higher blood would likely be especially welcome. People may also recieve time at the abbey as a penance from time to time. I really like the retreat ideas though, thanks for bringing it up. (And no, no brothels!)
I especially consider it to be an alternative to the busy city clergy. With bishops and such being involved in the business of running the Order, the abbey and its clergy would be able to have a more dedicated to a specific pastoral mission... probably decided by the abbot with the consultation of the monks/nuns and the Cardinal and such.
As to the abbot and abbess, we are stilling trying to hack out exactly what the nature of his or her office will be. That will include rank, clothing, and such. I would like to be able to give more freedom to him or her in clothing while retaining some distinctly monastic features (like hoods) and probably would have a cool symbol of office. However, we're still working it out.
Thanks!
I especially consider it to be an alternative to the busy city clergy. With bishops and such being involved in the business of running the Order, the abbey and its clergy would be able to have a more dedicated to a specific pastoral mission... probably decided by the abbot with the consultation of the monks/nuns and the Cardinal and such.
As to the abbot and abbess, we are stilling trying to hack out exactly what the nature of his or her office will be. That will include rank, clothing, and such. I would like to be able to give more freedom to him or her in clothing while retaining some distinctly monastic features (like hoods) and probably would have a cool symbol of office. However, we're still working it out.
Thanks!
I do like the tone of abbey life that you're evoking in your descriptions, and feel that it would make for a nice contrast to cathedral-based churchery. Also, it is a good route for characters that don't want to go down Inquisitor road, as well.
I could see it becoming also a center of (order approved) knowledge, education and research. I've often noticed that the university/scholars guild (when we had one) doesn't really find full traction on the game, but if some of that function is brought in under an arm of the Order, it may do very well.
It could also serve as a hospice/infirmary.
I'll give it some more thought and chat with you when I'm able to log on to TI (at work right now.)
-Charm.
I could see it becoming also a center of (order approved) knowledge, education and research. I've often noticed that the university/scholars guild (when we had one) doesn't really find full traction on the game, but if some of that function is brought in under an arm of the Order, it may do very well.
It could also serve as a hospice/infirmary.
I'll give it some more thought and chat with you when I'm able to log on to TI (at work right now.)
-Charm.
Now, this talk of 'retreat' is precisely what I think is bad about the idea. We don't have a huge playerbase to spread around, so having a place where people go to hide away is not a good idea, even if the idea is for religious RP.
The 'friar' aspect as it was called seems fine to me. A place for priests who want to focus on a specific aspect of the Order to go. That I'm fine with.
What I -don't- want, and what I want to avoid with a fiery passion, is having any sort of retreat or cloister situation. You can perfectly fine have religious/clergy RP in the cathedral without getting into the Inquisition, just very few do. Mass, confession, even advice or more personal teaching are all perfectly valid.
I also want to avoid looking to 'historical Catholicism' for suggestions. I think Davism has extreme potential to be both very interesting and very unique. Islam and Catholicism both have a single god (The Lord of the Springs in Davism), and they both have a messiah/prophet figure (Dav, in Davism), and they both seek (or sought in the past) to weed out heretical figures (mages in Davism). However, they are very different religions. I don't see why Davism can't have those similarities and still be a very different religion with its own quirks and things to learn about.
Yes, in the past, it's been played pretty by-the-book that it's a stand-in for Catholicism. However, I think we could stay true to how it's meant to be and still expand it in a new, interesting direction, even as players, by writing IC literature and discussion on the forums. If anyone else is interested, I can write a new post with some ideas I had.
For now, though? I've covered why I disagree with some sizable parts of the monk/nun idea.
The 'friar' aspect as it was called seems fine to me. A place for priests who want to focus on a specific aspect of the Order to go. That I'm fine with.
What I -don't- want, and what I want to avoid with a fiery passion, is having any sort of retreat or cloister situation. You can perfectly fine have religious/clergy RP in the cathedral without getting into the Inquisition, just very few do. Mass, confession, even advice or more personal teaching are all perfectly valid.
I also want to avoid looking to 'historical Catholicism' for suggestions. I think Davism has extreme potential to be both very interesting and very unique. Islam and Catholicism both have a single god (The Lord of the Springs in Davism), and they both have a messiah/prophet figure (Dav, in Davism), and they both seek (or sought in the past) to weed out heretical figures (mages in Davism). However, they are very different religions. I don't see why Davism can't have those similarities and still be a very different religion with its own quirks and things to learn about.
Yes, in the past, it's been played pretty by-the-book that it's a stand-in for Catholicism. However, I think we could stay true to how it's meant to be and still expand it in a new, interesting direction, even as players, by writing IC literature and discussion on the forums. If anyone else is interested, I can write a new post with some ideas I had.
For now, though? I've covered why I disagree with some sizable parts of the monk/nun idea.
The TI religion is Davism, not Catholicism.
I'm okay if we mimic the philosophy. That's a different story, but there's a line there where religion and philosophy cross.
We mimic medieval Catholicism in only that we steal our IC cultural slightly from medieval Europe where Catholicism was strong, but as a staff member, I have to say that I do not want to see the religion become any more heavily Catholic. The ranks of the Order are novice, acolyte, priest/priestess, inquisitor, bishop, archbishop, cardinal. Right there, we're looking at enough pseudo-similarities (but also extreme differences, thank goodness), that we've received criticism from Catholic players who simply are offended. Note: This is a fact, we've had people who were offended contact staff.
Let's face it - the church on TI, by modern definition, is evil. Sure, they're following their own moral code for the game's theme, and that's great, but OOCly, we all know that the Davite church, amongst their many roles, is also mechanism for intolerance. If we liken it too strongly to Catholics, we're making a statement (even unintentional) about Catholicism and judging their history. I don't want to see that happen, and I don't want it to be the game we're running.
In general, I want to leave the game to the players, but I think this is about how we as a game act. I won't approve the changing of ranks to monk/nun/friar. I'd really love to see more things fleshing out how Davism is different from Catholicism, like their beliefs about the creation of the universe coming from the Lord of the Springs, and the springs themselves being pure. The worship of water and the strength there, how it evolved from a worship of the elements and nature, etc.
I'm sorry for offending anyone, and I hope this statement doesn't hurt Bennie's feelings, who obviously is a passionate, creative player. I just see going down the route of Catholicism with our intolerant religion being a bit like acting out our prejudices (see stereotypes) in a holistic way that's truly, deeply offensive.
I'm okay if we mimic the philosophy. That's a different story, but there's a line there where religion and philosophy cross.
We mimic medieval Catholicism in only that we steal our IC cultural slightly from medieval Europe where Catholicism was strong, but as a staff member, I have to say that I do not want to see the religion become any more heavily Catholic. The ranks of the Order are novice, acolyte, priest/priestess, inquisitor, bishop, archbishop, cardinal. Right there, we're looking at enough pseudo-similarities (but also extreme differences, thank goodness), that we've received criticism from Catholic players who simply are offended. Note: This is a fact, we've had people who were offended contact staff.
Let's face it - the church on TI, by modern definition, is evil. Sure, they're following their own moral code for the game's theme, and that's great, but OOCly, we all know that the Davite church, amongst their many roles, is also mechanism for intolerance. If we liken it too strongly to Catholics, we're making a statement (even unintentional) about Catholicism and judging their history. I don't want to see that happen, and I don't want it to be the game we're running.
In general, I want to leave the game to the players, but I think this is about how we as a game act. I won't approve the changing of ranks to monk/nun/friar. I'd really love to see more things fleshing out how Davism is different from Catholicism, like their beliefs about the creation of the universe coming from the Lord of the Springs, and the springs themselves being pure. The worship of water and the strength there, how it evolved from a worship of the elements and nature, etc.
I'm sorry for offending anyone, and I hope this statement doesn't hurt Bennie's feelings, who obviously is a passionate, creative player. I just see going down the route of Catholicism with our intolerant religion being a bit like acting out our prejudices (see stereotypes) in a holistic way that's truly, deeply offensive.
Its fine... I completely understand. It didn't work out and that is fine.
As to the Catholicism thing, I can relate to not wanting to make a statement about the Church. I myself am devoutly Catholic and am actually in the process of entering seminary for priestly formation. As such, I would in no way wish to make a statement like that.
I was hoping to create an area of Davism that may break the intolerant mold (which is obviously what the concept of the Inquisition and such is). My thoughts were, even though Davism as a whole is evil, that doesn't mean you have some gems in a very dark setting.... However, I get that this likely won't work.
I am completely fine abandoning the Abbey project at the discretion of Zin and the Staff.
As to the Catholicism thing, I can relate to not wanting to make a statement about the Church. I myself am devoutly Catholic and am actually in the process of entering seminary for priestly formation. As such, I would in no way wish to make a statement like that.
I was hoping to create an area of Davism that may break the intolerant mold (which is obviously what the concept of the Inquisition and such is). My thoughts were, even though Davism as a whole is evil, that doesn't mean you have some gems in a very dark setting.... However, I get that this likely won't work.
I am completely fine abandoning the Abbey project at the discretion of Zin and the Staff.
I would think the simple equal-opportunities of men and women within all levels of power in the Church of Dav sets it aside plenty from real-world Catholicism all by itself ... but true, no need to offend anyone.
I like Bennie's idea of making the church more three-dimensional and nuanced though (which is the main jist of his suggestion as far as I understand), letting Order RP be more than vigilance, arrest, interrogate, burn. Even an extremist religion like Davism ought to have more normal rituals and behavior for daily life, inherited from older the Lord of Spring theology (which predated Davism, as I understand it). Maybe one could hint at this in some other way than introducing equivalents to real-world religious hierarchies.
.
Empheba
I like Bennie's idea of making the church more three-dimensional and nuanced though (which is the main jist of his suggestion as far as I understand), letting Order RP be more than vigilance, arrest, interrogate, burn. Even an extremist religion like Davism ought to have more normal rituals and behavior for daily life, inherited from older the Lord of Spring theology (which predated Davism, as I understand it). Maybe one could hint at this in some other way than introducing equivalents to real-world religious hierarchies.
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Empheba
I would be favorable to working on this kind of thing from an angle different than the abbey. The Order is, as one can notice, very small right now. I think an increase in the non-Inquisitor aspects would be welcome and add an interesting dimension to the entire theme. Involvement with other guilds would be good too. For the most part, the Order seems to work on its own with the occasional talking to the Knights and Reeves for arrests. Getting more pastoral clergy working in the Nobles and such would be welcome.Empheba wrote:I like Bennie's idea of making the church more three-dimensional and nuanced though (which is the main jist of his suggestion as far as I understand), letting Order RP be more than vigilance, arrest, interrogate, burn. Even an extremist religion like Davism ought to have more normal rituals and behavior for daily life, inherited from older the Lord of Spring theology (which predated Davism, as I understand it). Maybe one could hint at this in some other way than introducing equivalents to real-world religious hierarchies.
.
Empheba
Especially with the chaotic situation we have now, having priests and bishops around the court and near nobles would be interesting. Also, involvement with merchants and trabadours to work on common goals would be great. Sadly, we don't have the man power for that right now, but prepping for that kind of thing may attract people to the Order in the future.
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