Charali Racial Perspectives

[Geras]

Wait, the Daravi speak a language related to Charalin?

[wimple]

Wait, the Daravi speak a language related to Charalin?

Check out 'Help Daravi Overiew'

[Geras]

This makes zero sense.

[Geras]

My thinking is the Hillfolk, Daravi and Charalin should have a wary respect for each other as the "old" cultures of the region, viewing the others as more interlopers. The Daravi-Charalin relationship would be soured by the former's practice of slavery though.

I don't see the Charalin and Daravi as closely related though. To me they are polar opposites.

Genetics:

Charalin - fair
Daravi - swarthy

Charalin - steppe nomades
Daravi - sedentary agriculturalists

Charalin - matriarchal
Daravi - patriarchal

Charalin - flat society
Daravi - extremely hierarchical

Charalin - shamanistic magic
Daravi - demon/blood magic

So on.

[Geras]

(I realize I am veering off topic here).

To me, where the Charalin have had a large influence and a linguistic connection is two places:

1. Vavard. Originally a proto-Tubori trading post that assimilated a large chunk of the local populace (sometimes but not always by force), that prefers to ignore the obvious linguistic and physical similarities to their Charalin neighbours. Lithmorran influences are

2. Lithmore. The way I see the core of the Lithmorran Duchy is as something like Pannonia/Hungary. IE an isolated pocket of steppe, and them limit of the steppe cultures' influence. So I see core Lithmore as originally Charalin, with proto-Vandagan/Tubori influences creeping in from the north and up the river, and Daravi influences creeping in from the south.

What makes Lithmore special (and the eventual core of an empire) is that it is a meeting place for trade and cultures. So the pre-consolidation Lithmorrans had magical traditions blending Charalin shamanism, Tubori elementalism and Daravi blood magic/demonology/sorcery.

It was also the deepest location in the continent where Hillman goods could be loaded into Tubori river-born ships.

But I see the old Charalin layer as the carrier of fair-skin and fair-haired traits, just like how steppe nomads (the original Indo-Europeans and Bell Beakers) brought those traits to the heart of Europe in real life.

[wimple]

So I think we have a very different imagining of the Charali. I've never thought of them as Indo-European or Bellbreakers, more Mongolia. I don't think either of us is right/wrong on one place versus the other, just that it may be impacting why it doesn't seem to be a major contradiction for me.

I don't think the claim is that the Daravi and Charalin are super closely related or even that it's the same language? The help file only says: "It is said amongst scholars and veteran soldiers that the Daravi speak none of the civilised tongues prevalent in the kingdom, and instead speak a language closer to that of the Charali." Looking at that, perhaps my suggestion for the perspectives was too strong for the one I had that included language. Heck, from that wording, it could just be them characterizing the Daravi as barbarians, and the Charalin are the "nobler" of the barbarian groups that the soldiers would be familiar with.

Language can work in funny ways, so that connection doesn't really bother me. I have never characterized the Daravi as agriculturalists - I've always seen it as a desert/trading society. Even loose trading interactions between two trading groups could lead to crossover, and languages built upon trade or interactions with others are often easy languages to adjust or pick up, so are more prone to inclusion of language from other regions. And cognates/influences can spread across language families.

As far as connections - I've honestly never thought of the Charalin having any connection to anywhere else in the game. I don't think that help files indicate any linguistic similarities to Vavard, beyond the Charali using Vavardi and Lithmorran script for the written language they cobbled together. That to me is a situation of conquest and not cultural blending or similarities with languages. I've assumed the Vavardi similarities to some Charalin features is from colonizing and settling in Charalin areas rather than any connections prior. I don't think I see enough connections for Lithmore to be originally Charalin. My understanding of the Charalin heretical faiths is that they are very far afield from the other regions, including Davism, and I don't see much of their shamanism at the core of pre-Davist faiths. Some of the Charalin heretical faiths, however, do have cross-over with demonology which is a connection, one supposes, with the Daravi.

[Sparkles]

1. Vavard. Originally a proto-Tubori trading post that assimilated a large chunk of the local populace (sometimes but not always by force), that prefers to ignore the obvious linguistic and physical similarities to their Charalin neighbours. Lithmorran influences are

That's ... not the history of Vavard though. It was never a "proto-Tubori" trading post. Vavard was founded by large numbers of the Merchants Guild fleeing Lithmore at the destruction of the early Consolidation. They built a capitol city and a Navy, built up an army, and seemingly had every intention of attempting to remain independent. They are very much akin to RL European groups who moved to 'the New World' declared it was theirs now and simply took over. Prior to that the Charali were living in those areas.

Vavardi then is a dialect of Lithmorran that broke off from the main, like I imagine Latin developed into any of the romance languages. Yes, some Vavardi clearly ignore the realities that they have at least some Charali ancestry some characters do this as an active choice as a character quirk.

2. Lithmore. The way I see the core of the Lithmorran Duchy is as something like Pannonia/Hungary. IE an isolated pocket of steppe, and them limit of the steppe cultures' influence. So I see core Lithmore as originally Charalin, with proto-Vandagan/Tubori influences creeping in from the north and up the river, and Daravi influences creeping in from the south.

The Charalin were on the Plains not in Lithmore. We have no evidence anywhere in helpfiles, the Wiki, or IC texts that supports the idea the Charali ever lived in Lithmore. One could argue if they were looking for an earlier culture in Lithmore that would be the Hillmen. Why Lithmore became what it is, is no doubt a very interesting question but I don't think we should try and change the known history to fit a theory.

[Geras]

That's ... not the history of Vavard though. It was never a "proto-Tubori" trading post. Vavard was founded by large numbers of the Merchants Guild fleeing Lithmore at the destruction of the early Consolidation. They built a capitol city and a Navy, built up an army, and seemingly had every intention of attempting to remain independent. They are very much akin to RL European groups who moved to 'the New World' declared it was theirs now and simply took over. Prior to that the Charali were living in those areas.

Vavardi then is a dialect of Lithmorran that broke off from the main, like I imagine Latin developed into any of the romance languages. Yes, some Vavardi clearly ignore the realities that they have at least some Charali ancestry some characters do this as an active choice as a character quirk.

We're what, 250 years in from the Consolidation? That's not long enough for a language to split. That's like the time depth between English dialects in England's far flung colonies. It's not really comparable to the fissioning of Latin into Romance languages as that occurred over a much longer time span and involved assimilating large and diverse pre-exisiting cultures.

I think Vavard certainly expanded greatly with the influx of Consolidation refugees, but there must have been a pre-existing presence they built on.

The Charalin were on the Plains not in Lithmore. We have no evidence anywhere in helpfiles, the Wiki, or IC texts that supports the idea the Charali ever lived in Lithmore. One could argue if they were looking for an earlier culture in Lithmore that would be the Hillmen. Why Lithmore became what it is, is no doubt a very interesting question but I don't think we should try and change the known history to fit a theory.

Then why do Lithmorrans more closely physically resemble the Charalin than the Hillfolk?

[Geras]

So I think we have a very different imagining of the Charali. I've never thought of them as Indo-European or Bellbreakers, more Mongolia. I don't think either of us is right/wrong on one place versus the other, just that it may be impacting why it doesn't seem to be a major contradiction for me.

Keep in mind that the Indo-Europeans and Bell-Beakers are part of the same phenomenon as the Mongols. All these groups are steppe nomads. The Mongols are just the last major group of steppe nomads to arrive on the scene. The Indo-European expansion was the first wave of steppe nomads to span the Eurasian Continent, reaching from Spain to Mongolia, China and India.

Re: the Daravi - I look at them as similar to the great civilizations of the Levant and Near East. Granted, after the Sumerians and the Egpytians, these civilizations themselves were conquered by nomadic pastoralists, but still. I could buy a shared history if the Daravi had cultural features similar to the Charalin, but they don't. They are polar opposites.

[Geras]

This is how I view the relationships between groups personally. Connections further left on the image mean they are older.

https://imgur.com/pnhuLrH

And here's a similar tree from a real world paper about human genetics:

https://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/ ... 02967.g004

The paper:

https://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/ ... en.1002967