Then again I'm biased in favor of the Merchants having strong things
Warrants should auto-blacklist
I enjoy the interguild roleplay that Blacklists create, both between the Reeves and the Order. I could see exceptionally high lawfulness or piety creating a pseudo-blacklist for known criminals and mages so that they can't buy anything Northside, but anything else would be strange. Blacklists are an incredibly powerful tool and combined with a warrant can basically knock someone out of the game, so it should have a high cost and a lot of effort put into it.
Then again I'm biased in favor of the Merchants having strong things
Then again I'm biased in favor of the Merchants having strong things
So, I admit I'm biased here for obvious reasons, but saying an outed mage/criminal shouldn't expect to be able to continue RP feels a bit... Iffy. If they are outside of Order/Reeve custody, then they absolutely should still have avenues to continue RP and influence the game-state.
Well, I should backtrack, I don't mean to throw shade at anybody's RP choices! How people handle being wanted is 100% up to them. I played primarily in a time where, yes, if you got revealed, it was time to go out in a blaze of glory. So the idea of NOT committing suicide by pyre while making as big a mess as possible when wanted is a foreign one to me. That absolutely does not make it a bad one and I apologize for that implication.
But I DO believe that it is reasonable to expect being exposed as guilty of a capital crime comes with significant penalties that will prevent you from living comfortably and easily thereafter and will make public exposure highly risky.
But I DO believe that it is reasonable to expect being exposed as guilty of a capital crime comes with significant penalties that will prevent you from living comfortably and easily thereafter and will make public exposure highly risky.
I feel this skims the lines of, "the NPCs are Davites". So, unless a shop is specifically coded to be spoopy, it does make sense that if there is a city-wide warrant out, it'd be hard for mages, etc, to find someplace they can buy from.
That said, there's plenty of shops outside city limits (Wilhelm, etc) where they could be considered to be 'out of the loop'. And maybe they could buy from there.
That said, there's plenty of shops outside city limits (Wilhelm, etc) where they could be considered to be 'out of the loop'. And maybe they could buy from there.
help policy triggers, help policy non-consensual, help sandwich
I totally understand, Erasmus. I'm just in a situation where my IC would absolutely not be directed towards any giant, dramatic displays of malevolent witchcraft in an attempt to find an honorable death, and it's already rather difficult to interface with the game in any way that does not result in my immediate capture.
Making it even easier to restrict me, or anyone else who ever gets outed, from being able to do much of anything... Like, I can't think of many reasons someone who's a criminal would leave their hideout except to A: meet with people, or B: go shopping.
An auto-blacklist leaves only option A on the field, reducing the amount of risks someones' likely to take, which just contributes towards the grey area of them existing and being wanted but the Order/Reeves not really being able to check every single tile for where they might be. It results in people like Yvette just... Sitting, in their hut/cave/ruin/whathaveyou, with no reason to engage in comparison to the risk, but also unable to simply liquidate by policy.
Making it even easier to restrict me, or anyone else who ever gets outed, from being able to do much of anything... Like, I can't think of many reasons someone who's a criminal would leave their hideout except to A: meet with people, or B: go shopping.
An auto-blacklist leaves only option A on the field, reducing the amount of risks someones' likely to take, which just contributes towards the grey area of them existing and being wanted but the Order/Reeves not really being able to check every single tile for where they might be. It results in people like Yvette just... Sitting, in their hut/cave/ruin/whathaveyou, with no reason to engage in comparison to the risk, but also unable to simply liquidate by policy.
There's no real good solution to this right now as things stand. As is, the blacklists ARE happening, and will probably keep happening, so I think fugitives are going to be in just as unpleasant a place either way - it's just gonna keep costing the Merchants beaucoup resources for zero good IC reason. (I do like Ruby's suggestion, though.)
On a related note, I do think it's rather odd there's no way to liquidate by policy when you're wanted. Yeah, I know it sucks for Order players - but that's why it's so key to go after people before they know they're caught! And it doesn't have to be a flat yes/no. There could be liquidation RPA for wanted folks - lay out your plan and if you succeed, yay, you get to run off and be happy in Tubor or somesuch for the rest of your life! If not, welp, you end up in the Order's hands and get your extra 30% deathXP.
On a related note, I do think it's rather odd there's no way to liquidate by policy when you're wanted. Yeah, I know it sucks for Order players - but that's why it's so key to go after people before they know they're caught! And it doesn't have to be a flat yes/no. There could be liquidation RPA for wanted folks - lay out your plan and if you succeed, yay, you get to run off and be happy in Tubor or somesuch for the rest of your life! If not, welp, you end up in the Order's hands and get your extra 30% deathXP.
Re: Being Wanted In The New Age
Erasmus, while in the past it was the norm to die on the altar of theme because there were no alternative power structures and all the RP that mattered required you to be Not Outed, this has changed a little. Not completely, obviously being a wanted criminal by either the Reeves or Order makes your life much harder, but sympathetic characters exist and your character can have a reason to Exist While Outed. Still the world's most dangerous game of Werewolf, but less so than it was. The game has changed! I think most people got tired of that cycle, though in practice we've still seen plenty of pyrings and executions.
There is open opposition, and it's reached a state where it has some amount of subversive support. Not a lot, but enough to have an effect and provide a safety net for characters who everyone else wants dead or would watch be burned alive or drawn and quartered.
Re: Warrant and Blacklist
Knights should absolutely have a warrant button like the Reeves do, but they shouldn't be given the only direct Merchant 'PVP' tool. They definitely shouldn't be given another guild's only PVP tool entirely for free. It should also probably not do the same thing - Knight NPCs (there are few of them in comparison) should respond at a rate according to Piety, they should receive Order reports from known criminals, etc., but it ideally leaves all the Reeve parts to the Reeves if they want to do a warrant.
In regards to the blacklist, in a relatively decentralized economy it takes great effort to communicate clear information to and enforce the cooperation of every shop-person known to man. The idea that everyone would Just Do It when there's a warrant out isn't entirely unreasonable... most of the time, sometimes Piety is Terrible. But the idea that the Knights have the infrastructure and mercantile connections to enforce universal blacklists easier than the Merchants do stretches both ooc Guild Roles and IC suspension of disbelief. The technology and logistics just aren't really there. Lithmore is especially tightly-knit for a pre-Renaissance city so I can at least imagine the Merchants being able to do that by trying very hard, but portraying their single real power other than Making Stuff to be kind of... an awkward annoyance and a formality the Knights should have anyway... I'm not really behind it.
I can't be bothered to check for 100% sure if everybody in the backrooms at a large retail store is 100% supposed to be there, I do not imagine most shopkeeps are going to be checking people for ID or are willing to risk being stabbed to death or sacrificed to a demon or whatever for not serving them some ale unless there is a significant top-down power structure exerting direct and focused attention on it. Especially if they stand to lose money.
Being Banned From Life isn't an easy thing to enforce. 10 IP every so-often is honestly too easy imo, but it works for the game.
Re: Being A Criminal
As a player whose character is wanted by both the Reeves and Order, I expect my life to be relatively difficult and for the authorities to have tools which allow them to do what they would theoretically be capable of doing. I also expect there to be ways to counteract those tools in themely ways (city metrics, disguises, etc.) so that it is a 'give-and-take' game of cat and mouse. This makes it an interaction, rather than a funny joke we tell ourselves before a character is inevitably slaughtered for public entertainment and horror.
While in the past it might have been the norm to consider your character expendable, careful consideration of risk and reasonable expectation of a chance of short-lived victory is more common today. This does mean that my opportunities to RP on a fugitive character are relatively slim, but I'm more than willing to fight a hard, unbalanced fight so long as it feels like I have some agency. 'I am wanted by the cops' in the case of warranting is perfectly normal and good, 'the cops told the money people not to talk to me' is also perfectly normal and good, but given how powerful it is, it should probably have a cost attached and require more than one player's input. Cooperation among the guilds is a good thing. If the mechanic for making it happen sucks, change the mechanic rather than sidestep it.
Also note that for any reason someone with Merchant influence might *not* want to blacklist someone, and by giving the Knights this power you completely eliminate that RP opportunity. Sure they might die for it, but that's the fun.
Re: Escape Liquidations
Additionally - 'escape from Lithmore but For Real' rolls sound like a good way to arbitrate for people who want to liquidate. System similar to jail escapes... probably more likely, though. It's actually very hard to catch criminals outside of a city, they can kind of just leave from anywhere especially if they can, I don't know, do the things mages can do or have magical friends who can do the things mages can do.
Erasmus, while in the past it was the norm to die on the altar of theme because there were no alternative power structures and all the RP that mattered required you to be Not Outed, this has changed a little. Not completely, obviously being a wanted criminal by either the Reeves or Order makes your life much harder, but sympathetic characters exist and your character can have a reason to Exist While Outed. Still the world's most dangerous game of Werewolf, but less so than it was. The game has changed! I think most people got tired of that cycle, though in practice we've still seen plenty of pyrings and executions.
There is open opposition, and it's reached a state where it has some amount of subversive support. Not a lot, but enough to have an effect and provide a safety net for characters who everyone else wants dead or would watch be burned alive or drawn and quartered.
Re: Warrant and Blacklist
Knights should absolutely have a warrant button like the Reeves do, but they shouldn't be given the only direct Merchant 'PVP' tool. They definitely shouldn't be given another guild's only PVP tool entirely for free. It should also probably not do the same thing - Knight NPCs (there are few of them in comparison) should respond at a rate according to Piety, they should receive Order reports from known criminals, etc., but it ideally leaves all the Reeve parts to the Reeves if they want to do a warrant.
In regards to the blacklist, in a relatively decentralized economy it takes great effort to communicate clear information to and enforce the cooperation of every shop-person known to man. The idea that everyone would Just Do It when there's a warrant out isn't entirely unreasonable... most of the time, sometimes Piety is Terrible. But the idea that the Knights have the infrastructure and mercantile connections to enforce universal blacklists easier than the Merchants do stretches both ooc Guild Roles and IC suspension of disbelief. The technology and logistics just aren't really there. Lithmore is especially tightly-knit for a pre-Renaissance city so I can at least imagine the Merchants being able to do that by trying very hard, but portraying their single real power other than Making Stuff to be kind of... an awkward annoyance and a formality the Knights should have anyway... I'm not really behind it.
I can't be bothered to check for 100% sure if everybody in the backrooms at a large retail store is 100% supposed to be there, I do not imagine most shopkeeps are going to be checking people for ID or are willing to risk being stabbed to death or sacrificed to a demon or whatever for not serving them some ale unless there is a significant top-down power structure exerting direct and focused attention on it. Especially if they stand to lose money.
Being Banned From Life isn't an easy thing to enforce. 10 IP every so-often is honestly too easy imo, but it works for the game.
Re: Being A Criminal
As a player whose character is wanted by both the Reeves and Order, I expect my life to be relatively difficult and for the authorities to have tools which allow them to do what they would theoretically be capable of doing. I also expect there to be ways to counteract those tools in themely ways (city metrics, disguises, etc.) so that it is a 'give-and-take' game of cat and mouse. This makes it an interaction, rather than a funny joke we tell ourselves before a character is inevitably slaughtered for public entertainment and horror.
While in the past it might have been the norm to consider your character expendable, careful consideration of risk and reasonable expectation of a chance of short-lived victory is more common today. This does mean that my opportunities to RP on a fugitive character are relatively slim, but I'm more than willing to fight a hard, unbalanced fight so long as it feels like I have some agency. 'I am wanted by the cops' in the case of warranting is perfectly normal and good, 'the cops told the money people not to talk to me' is also perfectly normal and good, but given how powerful it is, it should probably have a cost attached and require more than one player's input. Cooperation among the guilds is a good thing. If the mechanic for making it happen sucks, change the mechanic rather than sidestep it.
Also note that for any reason someone with Merchant influence might *not* want to blacklist someone, and by giving the Knights this power you completely eliminate that RP opportunity. Sure they might die for it, but that's the fun.
Re: Escape Liquidations
Additionally - 'escape from Lithmore but For Real' rolls sound like a good way to arbitrate for people who want to liquidate. System similar to jail escapes... probably more likely, though. It's actually very hard to catch criminals outside of a city, they can kind of just leave from anywhere especially if they can, I don't know, do the things mages can do or have magical friends who can do the things mages can do.
Given the way people are responding to this topic and to me personally, I think I'm going to set this one aside. But before I do I want to be 100% clear:
My perspective is exactly as plague stated: I want the "authorities to have tools which allow them to do what they would theoretically be capable of doing." That's all. Like for an example, alongside supporting this auto-blacklist feature, I would want blacklist to be made more 'permeable' - southside stores should sell to cloaked people, any method of disguise magical or mundane should have a solid chance of fooling it, etc. etc.
I do not think it's a bad thing for people to be able to play known mages/heretics. I do not think those characters have the slightest obligation to ANYONE go chase the pyre. I do not want those characters dead, not on a personal level or a "what's best for the game" level. I never meant to imply that, but it seems like I did, and so I apologize for that. It's natural for tensions and tempers to flare sometimes given people are invested in anything they spend this much time in, but I really adore everybody on this game.
So if anyone feels personally hurt or targeted by my stance here, I'd like to encourage you to please reach out to me so we can talk it over.
My perspective is exactly as plague stated: I want the "authorities to have tools which allow them to do what they would theoretically be capable of doing." That's all. Like for an example, alongside supporting this auto-blacklist feature, I would want blacklist to be made more 'permeable' - southside stores should sell to cloaked people, any method of disguise magical or mundane should have a solid chance of fooling it, etc. etc.
I do not think it's a bad thing for people to be able to play known mages/heretics. I do not think those characters have the slightest obligation to ANYONE go chase the pyre. I do not want those characters dead, not on a personal level or a "what's best for the game" level. I never meant to imply that, but it seems like I did, and so I apologize for that. It's natural for tensions and tempers to flare sometimes given people are invested in anything they spend this much time in, but I really adore everybody on this game.
So if anyone feels personally hurt or targeted by my stance here, I'd like to encourage you to please reach out to me so we can talk it over.
I don't feel like your posts came across that way. I think you played at a different time and you have some different understandings/expectations than some other people and that what you said wasn't anything close to "perhaps they should simply die then". I did want to expand on how things might have changed since then, imo for the better, but I also think other approaches to Being A Crimer are perfectly valid.
I speak to "My Fun", and sometimes that's different from other people and that never means anybody's fun was wrong.
Also hi I want to touch base reach out on discord
I like the idea of powerful tools which have reasonable counterplay. I do think the separation of power is important though, as well as the IP cost. The Order has a ton of IP on average so I imagine they can meaningfully interface with that part of the mechanic even right now - if the Merchants can't afford a blacklist, surely the Order can help front the IP?
I work under the assumption that coding time is relatively limited as well. I didn't imagine a complete rework of the blacklist command. I would also be in support of it being a more complex thing representing the different layers of infrastructure. I'm not sure how realistic an expectation it is in terms of getting implemented, so for me I was looking at a pretty binary decision between "knight insta-blacklist" and "status quo" for the most part.
Warrant ABSOLUTELY should be a power the Knights have though, it's actively strange that that's not a thing. It should just be a Knight version of warrants for Order criminals and all the things associated with that.
... infamy titles would be so cool too...
I speak to "My Fun", and sometimes that's different from other people and that never means anybody's fun was wrong.
Also hi I want to touch base reach out on discord
I like the idea of powerful tools which have reasonable counterplay. I do think the separation of power is important though, as well as the IP cost. The Order has a ton of IP on average so I imagine they can meaningfully interface with that part of the mechanic even right now - if the Merchants can't afford a blacklist, surely the Order can help front the IP?
I work under the assumption that coding time is relatively limited as well. I didn't imagine a complete rework of the blacklist command. I would also be in support of it being a more complex thing representing the different layers of infrastructure. I'm not sure how realistic an expectation it is in terms of getting implemented, so for me I was looking at a pretty binary decision between "knight insta-blacklist" and "status quo" for the most part.
Warrant ABSOLUTELY should be a power the Knights have though, it's actively strange that that's not a thing. It should just be a Knight version of warrants for Order criminals and all the things associated with that.
... infamy titles would be so cool too...
I think the intent behind knight arrests is more geared around catching them by surprise and thus having NPCs alert them actually makes things worse, though this doesn't address the longterm known escaped mages that are widely publicized because secrecy has gone out the window.
As for blacklisting, it's not that it's viewed as willfully ignoring the fact that these are mages and just happily selling to them, but that keeping this information distributed to every shopkeeper on the city in good terms and knowing who they are and why they shouldn't sell to them is a large effort. The times that this is done should be a meaningful choice that this is worth doing, and longer lists are necessarily more complicated for the shopkeepers to keep track of. It shouldn't work better against random shopkeepers than against your average Merchant PC who doesn't necessarily keep abreast of every happening.
As for blacklisting, it's not that it's viewed as willfully ignoring the fact that these are mages and just happily selling to them, but that keeping this information distributed to every shopkeeper on the city in good terms and knowing who they are and why they shouldn't sell to them is a large effort. The times that this is done should be a meaningful choice that this is worth doing, and longer lists are necessarily more complicated for the shopkeepers to keep track of. It shouldn't work better against random shopkeepers than against your average Merchant PC who doesn't necessarily keep abreast of every happening.
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