As some of you are aware from the OOC channel, I am planning to take a crack at reviving the University a little bit. I am looking for suggestions at what sort of things people want to see the University doing. So far, some ideas have been: formalized degree program, public lectures, more player books.
I plan to personally work on giving at least a few public lectures here and there as well as produce a book. Now, one of the big things I'd like you to look at would be the degree system I've drawn up. Here is a rough idea of what I'd like.
DEGREE SYSTEM OF THE ROYAL UNIVERSITY OF LITHMORE
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BACCALAUREUS LITTERARUM (B.Litt.)
The Bachelor of Letters is the basic degree course open to all persons willing to pursue it regardless of class. The Bachelor of Letters signifies a body of knowledge associated with being learned.
To earn the B.Litt., a person must register as a student of the University and be enrolled for at least a year. They must also attend a University lecture. Having met these requirements, they may petition the Dean for the degree. The petition includes a formal interview with the Dean on their studies.
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THE MAGISTER DEGREE
The Magister degree is the secondary and specialized degree open to students. It represents the holding and mastery of specific knowledge to the point of be considered more or less able to teach it on a basic level to others. Admission to pursue the degree is customarily restricted to gentry or those sponsored by guilds to study for the degree though others may be admitted at the Dean's discretion.
There are three classes of magister degrees available (in order of precedence): SACRAE THEOLOGIAE MAGISTER (S.Th.M.); JURIS MAGISTER (J.M.); MEDICINAE MAGISTER (M.M.); PHILOSOPHIAE MAGISTER (Ph.M.).
The Ph.M is a degree in general "philosophy" and includes the natural sciences, business, and other forms of "general" knowledge. It is the lowest in precedence of the magister degrees. There are no specialized requirements involved with the pursuit of the Ph.M.
The S.Th.M. is a specialized degree in matters of theology and canon law. Receipt of the S.Th.M. requires approval of an ecclesiastical authority. The Order assists the University in establishing curriculum requirements. It is the highest ranking magister degree in the order of precedence.
The J.M. is a specialized degree in matters of law and is the baseline degree required to be considered learned in the law. The Court and Reeves assist the University in establishing curriculum requirements. It is the second highest ranking magister degree in the order of precedence.
The M.M. is a specialized degree in matters of medicine. To be given the degree requires the approval of the Royal Physician's guild who assist the University in admitting candidates for the degree as well as developing the curriculum. It is the third highest ranking magister degree.
Most of the magister degrees include specialized coursework developed in working with the guilds of the city. However, they are all similar in that they all require the candidate to have been registered as a candidate for the degree for two years and, upon petition, must submit a sample of work to the Dean of the University.
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THE DOCTORATE
The most prestigious degree available from the Royal University, the Doctorate represents the full body of knowledge necessary to teach, write on, and work in a given field at the very highest level. Holding a doctorate in any subject suggests the highest level of expertise, as such, it is an extremely competitive program to enter and not a task to be undergone lightly. Admission to study as a doctoral candidate is at the discretion of the Dean of the University.
There are three classes of doctorates available, listed here (in order of precedence): SACRAE THEOLOGIAE DOCTOR (S.Th.D.); JURIS DOCTOR (J.D.); MEDICINAE DOCTOR (M.D.); PHILOSOPHIAE DOCTOR (Ph.D.)
Doctorate curriculum, like that of magister degrees, is developed in cooperation with other guilds. The S.Th.D. and M.D. can only be granted with permission of the Order and Royal Physicians, respectively. Requirements also vary by degree. However, all doctorates share some requirements, namely the person must have completed magister coursework, have spend three years enrolled as a doctoral candidate, and having completed these requirements, must submit a petition to receive the degree to the Dean of the University. The petition must include the sponsorship of either a noble, a clergyman of bishop's rank or higher, the head of a guild, a person with a doctorate, or a professor of the university.
Before a petition can be decided upon, the candidate must perform a viva voce for his degree. At the viva voce, the person must submit a piece of academic work to the Dean and give a public lecture on their topic in the presence of the Dean or his agent. Following, the Dean may decide to reject or accept the petition and give the degree.
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In summary, the system would be three tiered with a single bachelor's degree (in letters) followed by more specialized magister's and doctorates. The specialized degrees would require something to be produced (like a book) and the doctorate would also require a public lecture. Further requirements would also be worked out with guilds that relate to the degree (the Court and Reeves for law, the Order for theology, the Physicians for Medicine).
How does this look to people? Any suggestions?
The University
I like the basic idea, but...
1) Less Latin. In fact, I'd prefer we drop any Latin entirely.
2) I'd like to see more 'action' requirements and less 'time' requirements. I.e., actual production.
3) This is a bit controversial, maybe, and I don't mean any offense... but with any University system, I think we need to ask this question. What is this giving to the game? Public lectures can be fun on occasion, but suffer from the same problem as performances - one person sits there tossing out huge emotes, a lot of other people sit there nodding.
So back to #2... people producing books or even technologies (within our comfort level for the game) could create impacts on play, I think. But as learning is going to be necessarily somewhat circumscribed by the culture/technology... not a lot of real science, but a lot of commenting on commentaries...
So how can we make this a system that really adds to the game for people? What will degrees do (beyond the gentry thing, I suppose)?
1) Less Latin. In fact, I'd prefer we drop any Latin entirely.
2) I'd like to see more 'action' requirements and less 'time' requirements. I.e., actual production.
3) This is a bit controversial, maybe, and I don't mean any offense... but with any University system, I think we need to ask this question. What is this giving to the game? Public lectures can be fun on occasion, but suffer from the same problem as performances - one person sits there tossing out huge emotes, a lot of other people sit there nodding.
So back to #2... people producing books or even technologies (within our comfort level for the game) could create impacts on play, I think. But as learning is going to be necessarily somewhat circumscribed by the culture/technology... not a lot of real science, but a lot of commenting on commentaries...
So how can we make this a system that really adds to the game for people? What will degrees do (beyond the gentry thing, I suppose)?
1) Alright, I'll drop Latin. It'll just be: Baccalaureate of Letters (B.L.), Master of Theology (M.Th.), Master of Law (M.L.), Master of Medicine (M.M.), and Master of Philosophy (M.Ph.), Doctor of Theology (D.Th.), Doctor of Law (D.L.), Doctor of Medicine (D.M.), and Doctor of Philosophy (D.Ph.). Viva voce will just be Final Assessment or something. I think that's all of it.
2) What I'd like to see as the purpose of the University would be two-fold. First, it would be around creating things for the game. Books were the original idea, but I hadn't thought of technologies. If we could get people doing work like that, it could generate some pretty cool things. Second, is the idea of thematic development. In two areas, namely theology and law, things can be confusing regarding what is and isn't kosher in those fields. What is heresy and what is just a fringe belief? What is the body of law? The University could bring together people who are very skilled in their respective IC fields to generate that thematic content in an IC forum, which could be very valuable.
3) How do we make this valuable to players? First off, being able to call yourself a doctor of _____ is fun. Also, it might be interesting to also make degrees have an effect on influence like wealth does. A famous academic's word is worth a little more than that of an unlettered peasant. That might also lead to the degree system being a way for freeman and gentry to gain influence they might not otherwise have access to. That makes education the sort of class-smashing thing it really can be. A freeman can gain influence and note through being a brilliant academic despite the fact he has little rank or wealth to his name.
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Thanks for the suggestions. This far from being done and I think if we work on it, we could really make something interesting out of the University aside from a cool place to wander from time to time. It could become a very interesting addition to the theme that stands as the academic force between all the various guilds.
2) What I'd like to see as the purpose of the University would be two-fold. First, it would be around creating things for the game. Books were the original idea, but I hadn't thought of technologies. If we could get people doing work like that, it could generate some pretty cool things. Second, is the idea of thematic development. In two areas, namely theology and law, things can be confusing regarding what is and isn't kosher in those fields. What is heresy and what is just a fringe belief? What is the body of law? The University could bring together people who are very skilled in their respective IC fields to generate that thematic content in an IC forum, which could be very valuable.
3) How do we make this valuable to players? First off, being able to call yourself a doctor of _____ is fun. Also, it might be interesting to also make degrees have an effect on influence like wealth does. A famous academic's word is worth a little more than that of an unlettered peasant. That might also lead to the degree system being a way for freeman and gentry to gain influence they might not otherwise have access to. That makes education the sort of class-smashing thing it really can be. A freeman can gain influence and note through being a brilliant academic despite the fact he has little rank or wealth to his name.
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Thanks for the suggestions. This far from being done and I think if we work on it, we could really make something interesting out of the University aside from a cool place to wander from time to time. It could become a very interesting addition to the theme that stands as the academic force between all the various guilds.
Last edited by Bennie on Wed Apr 17, 2013 5:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
If you're performing, and people are just nodding, you're doing something wrong. >.>
I've actually been thinking about that a lot, because I've noticed that the few masses my characters have went to have been really boring. A lot of head nodding, as you said. I think people are just scared to get in others' faces, and possibly for good reason.
I'm interested in getting involved with the University, but my online time has been sporadic at best lately. I really do enjoy the books that are already in the University Library though. Especially the Lithmorran ABCs.
I've actually been thinking about that a lot, because I've noticed that the few masses my characters have went to have been really boring. A lot of head nodding, as you said. I think people are just scared to get in others' faces, and possibly for good reason.
I'm interested in getting involved with the University, but my online time has been sporadic at best lately. I really do enjoy the books that are already in the University Library though. Especially the Lithmorran ABCs.
Player of: Alexander ab Courtland
Dice essentially wrote the post I would have.
I don't object to defining degrees and perks for completing formalized University programs, but I am concerned about how 'active' this RP would be, how sustainable the efforts, and how much the proposed system overlaps into established guilds' territory.
As I understand theme, it's intentional that the citizenry only understand the basics of secular law (help summary of laws); those wanting a better understanding are expected to contact reeves or become reeves, themselves. Children with a particular interest in a field may receive advanced training for their vocation (help Lithmorran education). And especially when it comes to questions of religion, I would say that the Order would very much prefer to be involved.
In my mind, the existing guilds should be overseeing this aspect of education - Reeves should be lecturing on the laws, Orderites should be lecturing on theology, Bards on muscial theory, Merchants on economics and embroidery, etc etc. This increases their value and relevance in game.
It's probably easy enough to support Professors who are sanctioned by the guilds to give lectures on these sorts of topics, though it does beg the question, Why isn't this happening already? My assumption is that 1) guilds haven't been large or active enough to bother with it, 2) lectures are too much like work, 3) audience RP tends to be fairly boring, no matter how interesting or interactive the subject.
Also, since social mobility is supposed to be relatively restricted, the University's existing purpose only has limited use right now as well. Even accepting that played characters are the cream of the crop, creating a fast-track system to elevate their standing may weaken a social structure that I already find can be difficult to support through RP.
I believe in the past that the University/Scholar's guild has struggled to thrive for various reasons, and foremost among them (in my opinion) is that they never had something uniquely their own. It's a shame because the University is a pretty large place to play, and I personally enjoy geeking it up over IC topics. I'm still happy to see the University have a presence in the city, and I think your best bet would be to encourage existing guilds to invest their own resources into supporting degree/training programs.
I don't object to defining degrees and perks for completing formalized University programs, but I am concerned about how 'active' this RP would be, how sustainable the efforts, and how much the proposed system overlaps into established guilds' territory.
As I understand theme, it's intentional that the citizenry only understand the basics of secular law (help summary of laws); those wanting a better understanding are expected to contact reeves or become reeves, themselves. Children with a particular interest in a field may receive advanced training for their vocation (help Lithmorran education). And especially when it comes to questions of religion, I would say that the Order would very much prefer to be involved.
In my mind, the existing guilds should be overseeing this aspect of education - Reeves should be lecturing on the laws, Orderites should be lecturing on theology, Bards on muscial theory, Merchants on economics and embroidery, etc etc. This increases their value and relevance in game.
It's probably easy enough to support Professors who are sanctioned by the guilds to give lectures on these sorts of topics, though it does beg the question, Why isn't this happening already? My assumption is that 1) guilds haven't been large or active enough to bother with it, 2) lectures are too much like work, 3) audience RP tends to be fairly boring, no matter how interesting or interactive the subject.
Also, since social mobility is supposed to be relatively restricted, the University's existing purpose only has limited use right now as well. Even accepting that played characters are the cream of the crop, creating a fast-track system to elevate their standing may weaken a social structure that I already find can be difficult to support through RP.
I believe in the past that the University/Scholar's guild has struggled to thrive for various reasons, and foremost among them (in my opinion) is that they never had something uniquely their own. It's a shame because the University is a pretty large place to play, and I personally enjoy geeking it up over IC topics. I'm still happy to see the University have a presence in the city, and I think your best bet would be to encourage existing guilds to invest their own resources into supporting degree/training programs.
In fact, that was my idea. I never intended to revive the Scholars but what I was hoping to create was an institution in the University where the guilds could formally engage in education.
Different fields would each have a faculty in charge of them (A Faculty of Theology, Faculty of Law, etc., etc.) who would be associated with one or more relevant guilds. Those guilds would appoint the rector of the faculty and select the professors/instructors to the positions. The University staff, all of one or two people who volunteer (I'd be happy to volunteer to start) who manage the admissions listings, coordinate the activities, and decide on degree petitions. Other than that, the faculties are more or less responsible for their own work. They manage professors, start projects, do lectures, publish books, and everything else. The common identity of the University means that people have a place to come to learn about the various aspects of certain topics as well as expediate the ability for the various faculties to work together on areas of mutual interest.
For me, one the strongest arguments here is the creation of advanced knowledge (That which lies beyond the general knowledge found in helpfiles). Frankly, I have no idea what the legal theory is in game right now and my impression is its heavily arbitrary as is the theological theory surrounding what is and isn't heresy. If I'm accused of something, heresy or a crime, I'm pretty much at the mercy of an individual who can decide what, in his mind, heresy is an isn't. I understand that is part of the theme in someways but I think it should at least be tempered by a semi-established canon created by consensus of the "learned" of the realm.
These are just my thoughts. Of course, we could develop all that knowledge on the forums, but I'm of the mind that what can be dealt IC probably should be dealt IC as much as possible. Anyways, we have a University and at least the theory of degrees. Why not use them?
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Also, thanks for all the help, guys. Its really appreciated. I would very much like to see the Scholars/University become part of the game again in some fashion (not likely as a guild, as I already said) and figuring out how best to do that is a daunting task to say the very, very least.
With a little luck and determination though, we can figure it all out.
Different fields would each have a faculty in charge of them (A Faculty of Theology, Faculty of Law, etc., etc.) who would be associated with one or more relevant guilds. Those guilds would appoint the rector of the faculty and select the professors/instructors to the positions. The University staff, all of one or two people who volunteer (I'd be happy to volunteer to start) who manage the admissions listings, coordinate the activities, and decide on degree petitions. Other than that, the faculties are more or less responsible for their own work. They manage professors, start projects, do lectures, publish books, and everything else. The common identity of the University means that people have a place to come to learn about the various aspects of certain topics as well as expediate the ability for the various faculties to work together on areas of mutual interest.
For me, one the strongest arguments here is the creation of advanced knowledge (That which lies beyond the general knowledge found in helpfiles). Frankly, I have no idea what the legal theory is in game right now and my impression is its heavily arbitrary as is the theological theory surrounding what is and isn't heresy. If I'm accused of something, heresy or a crime, I'm pretty much at the mercy of an individual who can decide what, in his mind, heresy is an isn't. I understand that is part of the theme in someways but I think it should at least be tempered by a semi-established canon created by consensus of the "learned" of the realm.
These are just my thoughts. Of course, we could develop all that knowledge on the forums, but I'm of the mind that what can be dealt IC probably should be dealt IC as much as possible. Anyways, we have a University and at least the theory of degrees. Why not use them?
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Also, thanks for all the help, guys. Its really appreciated. I would very much like to see the Scholars/University become part of the game again in some fashion (not likely as a guild, as I already said) and figuring out how best to do that is a daunting task to say the very, very least.
With a little luck and determination though, we can figure it all out.
I've nothing against this idea; I think it's great.
I wonder, though, how (for instance) a doctorate in medicine would chime up with the training given in the Physician's Guild. In short, I wouldn't like to see the authority of the Physicians' leaders to confer the title of "Doctor of Medicine" on their students undermined. What would the university system bring to this particular training? Would it be seen as superior to the training given at the Hospital, or is it merely a chance to specialise in one particular area of medicine? I think that things like this would need to be addressed.
I wonder, though, how (for instance) a doctorate in medicine would chime up with the training given in the Physician's Guild. In short, I wouldn't like to see the authority of the Physicians' leaders to confer the title of "Doctor of Medicine" on their students undermined. What would the university system bring to this particular training? Would it be seen as superior to the training given at the Hospital, or is it merely a chance to specialise in one particular area of medicine? I think that things like this would need to be addressed.
Here's my caveat: I was there when the original scholars' guild was opened, and had characters there through several iterations.
My ex ante position is that if you can amass a group of people who want to engage in this kind of roleplay, that's great; but at least in the past, it's never been sustainable, to the point where I'd argue (strongly) against making anything having to do with the University a requirement for anything else. In other words, TI used to require Knights to get the equivalent of Bachelor's Degrees or something. (As you can readily tell, that's not something that's persisted.)
On the other hand, the idea of a page struggling to learn the alphabet amuses me.
In any case, my problem with the University-- which can be addressed with some thought-- is that at its outset, it was sort of plopped into TI without much consideration as to what having a preeminent institution of higher learning located in the middle of Lithmore's Capital would or should do. These are some questions that you need to answer before going forward:
1. What is the objective quality of this education?
2. How accessible is this education to people, and how much should it cost?
3. How widespread, if at all, is the University's influence?
4. Where does the University get its funding?
And, as far as 'impact on the game', you need to consider the ideal state of how you'll interact with others via roleplay.
I think a critical mass of people do not like 'audience' RP. If you hold lectures, I'm not going to attend. But if you cleverly disguise lectures as walking into other scenes and having a discussion, I might stay.
Finally, I would suggest to whoever's spearheading the University effort, since the idea of the University is not really prevalent in our RP although we know that it exists, that you roleplay out essentially the inception and beginning years of the institution. It might be more fun, for instance, to create Oxbridge rather than run it wholesale? That's clearly your call, but the largest problem with the University at the moment is, quite honestly, I think a lot of us do not know what to do with it, so we just sort of pretend it doesn't exist.
My ex ante position is that if you can amass a group of people who want to engage in this kind of roleplay, that's great; but at least in the past, it's never been sustainable, to the point where I'd argue (strongly) against making anything having to do with the University a requirement for anything else. In other words, TI used to require Knights to get the equivalent of Bachelor's Degrees or something. (As you can readily tell, that's not something that's persisted.)
On the other hand, the idea of a page struggling to learn the alphabet amuses me.
In any case, my problem with the University-- which can be addressed with some thought-- is that at its outset, it was sort of plopped into TI without much consideration as to what having a preeminent institution of higher learning located in the middle of Lithmore's Capital would or should do. These are some questions that you need to answer before going forward:
1. What is the objective quality of this education?
2. How accessible is this education to people, and how much should it cost?
3. How widespread, if at all, is the University's influence?
4. Where does the University get its funding?
And, as far as 'impact on the game', you need to consider the ideal state of how you'll interact with others via roleplay.
I think a critical mass of people do not like 'audience' RP. If you hold lectures, I'm not going to attend. But if you cleverly disguise lectures as walking into other scenes and having a discussion, I might stay.
Finally, I would suggest to whoever's spearheading the University effort, since the idea of the University is not really prevalent in our RP although we know that it exists, that you roleplay out essentially the inception and beginning years of the institution. It might be more fun, for instance, to create Oxbridge rather than run it wholesale? That's clearly your call, but the largest problem with the University at the moment is, quite honestly, I think a lot of us do not know what to do with it, so we just sort of pretend it doesn't exist.
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