Mages and You

[Voxumo]

Hello again fellow TI Players. I would like to take some time from you and go over something important to the game. Now as you all likely know, have heard, or don't know, last saturday I tried to do a scene for the game on my mage, Rhea Sommus, and it ended in her death. While I do not dispute the death, it opened my eyes to a few problems the game has, not necessarily codewise, but problems none the less. But before I get into these problems, I'd like to preface with a bit of information.

What does TI: Legacy stand for? It stands for The Inquisition: Legacy. What is The Inquisition, the Inquisition is a force that seeks to eradicate magery. Right off the bat the name gives away the theme, The order against Mages, or in a broader sense, Non-mages against mages. Even on the front page under Theme it goes to reinforce this notion. As such the game needs mages, and it needs order members to truly function. Reeves, Merchants, Physicians, Brotherhood... The game could work without them all. They are not necessarily needed for it, but it would be very boring otherwise without them. This leads into my main point.

To take a reference from Star Wars "Let the Mage win (On Occasion)". What am I trying to say here? Well it truly goes beyond just letting the mage win. As I stated above, mages are a needed part of this game, or more correctly the RP they bring is needed. When you capture a mage, you more than likely destroy any further mage related rp they could have brought to the game as a whole, for 80% of mages who are captured by the Order end up dead. Now I'm not saying you should let mages go all the time, but if they aren't attacking you, or causing damage to anyone else, what is the harm with potentially letting them go, if it means further rp for you and others? And letting them go doesn't have to mean your character is a failure at their job. For example you could pose taking aim and firing at the fleeing mage, but gosh darnit they were a tad too fast and your arrow missed... darn. For example, let me reveal what I had intended to do with Rhea after the river square scene. The first thing I had intended on doing was to take someone up on their offer to sacrifice their character and use that to summon a court demon. You know what I intended to do with that court demon? Have it kill someone rhea hated? No. I intended to ask it to further rhea's own magery, and allow her to have control not only over Air, but Shadow/Void as well. Of course code would not support this, and I was prepared for that, it would have been an entirely rpable thing, much Fechos. With this I had planned on doing more public scenes, maybe not as big as what was at River square but decent sized. I mean afterall a mage who can 'control' two different elements, the two most prevalent elements on Urth, Void and Air? That would be terrifying would it not? And on the mage side, using prior knowledge of the Fallen manus tower, and the new 'rpable' element, I had intended to try and get mages to join together, and reform the manus, whether by code or just rp. But no, all this potential future rp... down the drain in one fell swoop, all because I decided to try to do mage rp out of the norm for you all. On top of that, how often does the game get mage related rp that isn't just 'Oh I'm going to summon a demon and let it loose on the city' or "I'm going to use my magery to kill someone'? With rhea I made it a point to avoid that stereotypical mage rp, and instead focus mage-related rp that did not rely on killing or maiming. Not once as Rhea did I actually kill someone, or really attack them, minus Rhun but even then I looked for someone who was willing to get their character involved knowing full and well it would likely end up with their death. I know how hard it is to lose a character, and that is why I've never actually killed a player-character on any of alts, 3 years I haven't enacted a pkill outside of pyrings or executions. And even though it would have been easier to just go the 'killer' mage route, I wanted to give the game something different, something that would hopefully have a more lasting impact, and give others something different to rp about.

Now before someone says the all-powerful phrase "But Vox, playing a mage is about risk." Let me provide a counterpoint to this ridiculous phrase, which I hear thrown about as some excuse all the time in mage-related topics. Yes, playing a mage is a risk, it makes that very clear when you choose magery at the start, that your character is more likely to die than others. However let me point out one big thing: Mages don't owe you rp. They don't have to put their character at risk just to give others rp of the mage kind. Nothing is forcing them to. Heck if mages so chose to they could hide their magery completely and only keep it between mages, preventing others from ever getting mage related rp. But no, most mages are willing to take that risk to bring others rp, for the sake of the story. It is also incredibly disheartening when you are trying to give said rp to other people, branching out, putting your character at risk for the sake of others... and all that work you've done is thrown back in your face, and taken for granted, as if you owe it to these people to sacrifice your character for the sake of their rp. There is a reason very few mages currently do anything close to what rhea did, and it's because it's not worth it in the long run. So remember this next time you are confronted with a mage trying to bring mage related rp to the rest of the game, and they aren't attacking, remember that they don't have to put their character at risk to bring you rp that is integral to the theme of the game.

Also I know this may come across as bitching and complaining, but you have to remember something, I have played both sides of the coin. I've played a reeve, a knight, and an inquisitor and I've also played my fair share of Mages. So I'm not just basing this on one side of the coin. Heck I've played 23 characters, 14 of which have been mages. I've been around the block. But only with rhea and Misune, who both lasted 2 ooc years with misune still going strong, have I really had a chance to sit back and observe the game's reaction to mages, icly and oocly. So I like to think I have some idea of what I am talking about.

[Pixie]

I appreciate what you're saying and honestly do understand your frustrations. I would have to counter, though, that the Order has no compelling IC reason to let go of mages once they have them, while they have every compelling reason to to burn them even on the maybe better-than-half chance they're a mage. If you're risking someone's eternal soul by not burning them alive, by god you're going to burn them alive.

Something I would like to see a whole lot more of that the general consensus in the game leans against, though, are more "evil" (not the right word) members of our powerful law and religious organizations. An Orderite who's demented enough to say to a weak little mage in their custody: "I'll let you go, and in exchange you will continuously provide me intelligence from the mage community." until they're no longer useful, then righteously has them burned.

It's only semi-related to your post, but stuff of that sort could potentially lengthen RP between opposing groups. Make it last longer than a few minutes in Ahalin and the burn code. Some corruption would go a long way toward allowing wiggle room in still-thematic RP between mages and others.

A crooked as hell Reeve or five would also be amazing for RP between criminals and the Reeves, but it's off-topic, and I also love our strictly law-abiding modernish moral sentiments Reeves.

[Voxumo]

I appreciate what you're saying and honestly do understand your frustrations. I would have to counter, though, that the Order has no compelling IC reason to let go of mages once they have them, while they have every compelling reason to to burn them even on the maybe better-than-half chance they're a mage. If you're risking someone's eternal soul by not burning them alive, by god you're going to burn them alive.

I think my words may not have come across properly. I'm not expecting the order to let mages go, that would go against theme. I'm meaning more in the actual 'arrest' phase of things. If a mage is already captured...well I don't think it would make much sense to let them go by that point.

But to further your point, I would totally support more 'crooked' people. But the thing is, having tried and played a crooked reeve and Inquisitor before... You have people on the game who have so much influence, that ultimately they destroy any chance of that before it starts. Like I played kain le destral... a somewhat crooked proconsul. He made a deal with the brotherhood, that in exchange for letting them beat up a certain prisoner, they would deal with someone who he and they believed to be a mage. Kain was willing to work with his sworn enemies for what he believed to be the greater good. Was it necessarily right? Well it depends on perspective, in his mind he was right, but in the law he wouldn't be.

[Geras]

What I think would be nice is more means for mages to protect their identity and persons. Right now (or at least last time I played a mage) you get 1 fun/big thing before your days of walking around in public are done - whether that 1 thing is successful or not.

[Voxumo]

Well Air mages do now have a spell that protects them from Damage, but also prevents them from attacking as well. It used to work while flying, so you could do a scene, have it on, and fly away to be able to do more scenes in the future... But apparently that was seen as unfair to others since it nullified any chance of them to capture said mage, so they removed the ability of the two spells to work together.

[Leech]

You can always ask people. That's how I got away from ninety percent of death scenes; I simply asked, and I posited ideas in the framework of: "Wouldn't X be really cool for these characters, and further RP, while also giving you something to do with your otherwise meaningless tavern-rp existence?" RP here definitely isn't as non-consent as people make it out to be. But, you also have to be ready for people to tell you to frak yourself. I got a few of those -- not necessarily in those words -- and in those instances I in fact didn't give those people my villain RP. So it's definitely a matter of not killing yourself for the playerbase and instead finding those few players you can work with instead to really spread what enjoyment and plot you have to offer -- eventually, it'll ripple out to those people who didn't want to give you a creative license on a scene.

You also have to understand that everyone, mage or not, has great plans. Death sucks, especially when it means giving up those plans, but it happens. Sandwich time, y'know?

Minorly related, I seriously don't know why people are so bent out of shape with maintaining secret identities. Try going loud and proud. You'd be surprised at how long you last, and just how much RP you'll get in the interim. It also pressures you to find really creative outlets to RP safely in -- notably, storyteller scenes, because those are the most consent based where you can be like 'peace, I'm outtie.'

(Also, you did a LOT with Rhea. Don't be disappointed with what you didn't accomplish, but instead look at what you did and celebrate.)

[Voxumo]

Oh I agree with you about essentially starting out small. It's why alot of Rhea's starting plots were between players who I knew would be open to certain things not supported by code. For example the scene with Silverclaw in the Crossroads, where rhea used Illusionmold to give herself wings, furthering the illusion that she was flying via the wings, instead of just via some spell. Codewise Illusionmold allows for one pose worth of illusion, which really doesn't offer much in the way of rp, doesn't allow people to react to it because by the time they do react, it's already dissipated by code standards. I knew Silverclaw would be more open to rp that wasn't strictly supported by code. The scene in the river square was my hopes that perhaps, just maybe people cared more about rp and plot than being the temporary hero... and I was proven wrong.

Also yeah, death sucks, I know that quite well with the amount of characters I've had. I was more so using that as an example of RP that could have been.

However about the secret Identity bit... That's a whole another story. The current mage community is the worst mage Community I've had the honor of being a part of on this game. But that's not to say there aren't those who are great in it.. but the bad outnumber the good in this instance. It's like I've mentioned to a few people in tells, trying to get these mages to work together is like trying to herd cats, next to impossible. Heck I've even touched on this icly with rhea. Everyone's afraid of taking risks on their characters, so much so that the mage community would rather be hermits than branch out to other mages, outside of the astral realm, yet they forget there can be no progression in this game without risks.

[CatsandMilk]

This is interesting. I'm new to TI, and before I read your point of view, I was determined to oust any mage I came upon or suspected of being a mage. Thanks to your post, I see that there has to be a bit more consideration for the ecosystem of this delicate world we play in. Mages are a part of this ecosystem. It is nice to consider the roleplay and spice that mages bring. I won't be quick to turn them in. Thanks Voxumo

[Dice]

I feel like there's sort of an inappropriate undercurrent in this thread chastising people for choosing to RP in a way that was entirely IC and logical in the situation, and as one of the players involved, I want to challenge this assumption with a different perspective. And I'm going to do so bluntly and openly. Hopefully this won't be perceived as a personal attack, but I think by directly addressing WHY I disagree it may help in the future.

Simply put, it isn't really fair to expect people not to kill your PC when your PC does something that merits getting killed and gives everyone every opportunity in the world to do it. Can you ask? Of course. Should those requests be considered? Absolutely. But I think even when you ask, you have to keep in mind that you are in fact asking for a favor, and that comes with an obligation: meeting the other people involved halfway.

What do I mean by that?

* Don't make them look ICly stupid for arranging the outcome you want.

Don't ask a Knight or Reeve to have conveniently forgotten their manacles that day when they have them, or to forget to search you, or fail to block an obvious exit, etc., just so you can get out alive. If they make those mistakes, by all means take advantage! But don't ask them to screw up inexcusably for your sake. And ESPECIALLY don't mock them later ICly for being failures if they failed because they were accommodating. You may recall in this scene your character made a very big deal of every failure the Knights/Order had ever made - success became nearly an IC necessity to deal with that. Additionally, given the "using magic in broad daylight in front of a dozen people", you put the lawful PCs in a situation where letting you escape, especially given the huge numerical advantage, would have only been rubbed in their faces ICly later.

* Don't ask people to accommodate your escape in a situation where it makes no sense.

Pursuant to that... asking to escape from a 10 v. 1 is really asking people to strain their disbelief a lot, even given the specific situation you were in. And in a more general sense, if bad guys can sling around magic openly in huge crowds in broad daylight, them getting away with that actually violates good story to my mind. Actions need logical consequence to support good stories.

In other words, I think the key here is not just expecting people to let you go, carte blanche, because of the idea that you're creating story. We're all creating story, and everybody values different things in their RP. Obviously we shouldn't be OOCly invested too much in whether we catch mages/criminals or not, but the same coin holds on the other side then - nobody should be OOCly invested too much then in whether their bad guy's plans succeed either.

If you want accommodation, design a situation where you have a reasonable chance of success so that accommodation doesn't have to come directly at the cost of the accommodating character's reputation. Make it a win-win situation for everyone. And people WILL play along. I've done so in the past, and so have others (particularly for Leech's alts, as he notes - we all remember how many times Casimir/Naer escaped death, right?) I worked with Leech's alts because it was good story, because he always had good escape plans, because he designed the situations in ways where I wouldn't have to RP utter stupidity to play along, and?

Because he asked nicely.

I want to stress how important I think it is kindly and respectfully to other players if you want them to work with you. You never asked anyone OOCly to work with you to devise a logical and reasonable way you could escape. Instead, you OOCly insulted me when I asked you to come back rather than insta-flee, which kept me from really wanting to work out an alternative solution. You've also continued to insult me/others involved with the cracks about people wanting to be a hero rather than wanting to make good story, and that honestly does not make me want to work with you in the future.

In short, I think if you meet people halfway and treat them with respect, you really will get away with a lot more than you did in that scene.

[Voxumo]

You say you don't intend to make it a personal attack, and yet you do very clearly. I don't deny that I probably could have handled that whole situation better, aka have a better escape plan, and truth be told, I did have a different plan in place at the start, but because a certain player happened to not be on, and despite my multiple attempts at getting ahold of them during the two weeks, they ignored it. And having been on a limited time schedule, which was delayed already 2 weeks, I had to work with what I had, or risk losing a chance which could not be reproduced with the same effects.

And I didn't make anyone look stupid icly because of things I had arranged with them, everything I pointed out was their own mistakes, and I didn't expect people to accommodate my escape in a way that didn't make sense. Everything that rhea said, as in noting the failure of the Knights/Order, was failures on their part that I didn't ask anyone to do. Failure to protect the daravi camp, completely on them, failure to protect the chalice, completely on them, Failure to capture Rhea in the crossroads, that was admittingly done completely by code. I've never once asked for a determined outcome, and I wasn't asking for that in this case either. I just expected people to use some common sense. You have a mage who is flying at a sprint speed, so pretty fast. Would it be feasible to really fire off two arrows, from two different characters and have them hit immediately? It could be possible, though you don't hear much of anything about people duck hunting with a bow. Yet because code is partial, of course an arrow will hit like it was auto-aimed. The whip that was used... that's a little bit of a stretch but I wasn't going to argue it. And no one was prepared for her to fly off, that is part of the reason I rped the lead up to the take off the way I did. I even gave hints that she was planning on flying off, aka the inhuman gulp of air. For some reason people thought I was going to be going into the river... Which I could see, but none was prepared for the flight upwards. That was my main qualm, and the fact that code screwed me over in the end.

And I wouldn't say I insulted you oocly, because if I remember correctly, you said 'wait a second or something similar to that' I had already left the room because well I didn't halt quick enough, but I came back fully knowing what was gonna happen. Though truth be told, I may have said something that I am not remembering right this instant... it wouldn't be the first time. If it was a small scene, I probably would have tried to arrange something, but this was a scene with ten plus people, odds of me managing to get out of there by arranging something, slim to none, especially given some of the people in that scene. Though I did get rather insulting after rhea had been knocked unconscious and ended up floating, because that wasn't expected at all. I honestly assumed the spell would have deactived. But I became insulting because it was ridiculous. 45 minutes, 15 of which rhea could have escaped if I was feeling more vindictive, and you guys couldn't get a plan together. But instead of being an ass and running off, I decided to stay and give you all a chance, and when no one could agree I took matters into my own hands and just made up some excuse for why rhea's magic failed her and ended her.

And no one's chastising anyone for doing what they would icly, we are just trying to have people consider before they attack, especially if it enriches and furthers rp, because try and deny all you want, killing off any character will never offer the type of rp that could have been if they were left alive. The only rp it offers is the pat on the back and 'Hey, you get to be praised for a day or two and then people will forget'. Aka, the hero rp.