PvP, PvE, and You

[Sabrelon]

Hey there! So Kinaed, Inmortal, and I were having a conversation last night on OOC about the state of PvP and PvE in TI:L, and we wanted to open the discussion up to other people who are interested in the topic.

I come from games that have a heavy PvE element, with the players working together the majority of the time. This doesn't, however, leave out the possibility of people playing against one another, it just makes it less the rule, and more the cherry on top. I generally prefer this type of gamestyle, with emphasis on collaboration against a greater, constant threat, that gives a risk of defeat/death pretty regularly.

Now I know that Lithmore isn't exactly the kind of place that screams "I'm going to die horribly," but there is certainly room for more lethality outside of the city. Bandits, highwaymen, rogues that pilfer the roads, are all options to make the IG world a bit more deadly, while creating a collaborative environment for players to work together against. Say bandits show up on the eastern road, and their arrival effects trade, causing prices of certain things to go up? The same idea can be applied to a different scenarios, and might be able to change up the current PvE/PvP space.

What do you think?

[Dice]

I've long been of the opinion that some sort of more robust PvE component to TI - either magical, criminal, or both - would go a long way toward keeping the game feeling inventive, exciting and fresh between more sustained player or staff-driven stories!

I'd want to make sure the component was:
1) Varying/unpredictable to some extent;
2) Challenging and realistic;
3) Generally avoidable for those who want to be able to travel the wilderness without combat RP

In my ideal world, we'd have something like the Orkin Wood - a very explicitly dangerous area on-grid blighted by magic with cursed/tainted animals, difficult to get anywhere through - and also small, controlled bandit/highwaymen spawns.

[Kinaed]

The biggest issue I see is that anything automated is unlikely to be highly variable/unpredictable. PvE events, I adore, but generally seem to require a storyteller or plot master, otherwise it's just a coded barrier to a player doing whatever they want.

Can I get further examples of implementation people would like to see, or how the above ideas could be implemented well without a plot staffer/player storyteller involved?

Personally, I'd love to feel like the world was highly thematic - I recall when Takta put in mobs that cat called or threw poop at people that it was quite liked, so perhaps we can add some more automated context, but it won't be the same as a story arc. Anything like what most H&S games have with built-in quests wouldn't really have a believable timeline or integration into the world.

I'm not against a deadly zone like Orkin Wood. My original goal with the astral was for it to be pretty dangerous, but none of the staff seemed to want to see that besides me.

[Leech]

What would be the payoff of going through the Orkin Wood? Why would I ever want to go in there? Are there really some players who enjoy fighting npcs so much they would just slash through for fun? It seems like an element to cater specifically to those more inclined to hack and slash; which is fine, but I don't think it would be an element that many would take advantage of.

Really good PVE just can't be done outside the context of scripted quests, either with code or a storyteller. I'm a fan of the latter.

[Voxumo]

I kind of have to agree with Leech here. While it's all fine and dandy in thought, most of the time hacking and slashing at coded enemies just gets boring, because what to do they offer in terms of dialogue? What to do they bring to the rp table besides just a way to showcase one's combat prowess? It would get boring after awhile, because it would be the same shit, same dialogue from the enemies everytime. And this is a game about rp. Yeah most demon situations resort to combat, but at least in that combat you often have the demon talking back, providing some form of dialogue. It adds depth to the fight.

However as for the Astral being pretty dangerous, I'd be up for this if there was a way for the game as a whole to enter it. I mean right now the astral while not really dangerous to mages, given their bodies are not there, it's more of an annoyance. There's been plenty of times I've gone astral and run into astral creatures that kick my arse in combat, and flee code just does not want to work. But aside from that, it's never felt dangerous, except when the astral creatures invaded lithmore. Now that felt dangerous since now I had a combat character who couldn't just return to their real body when encountering it.

You know, maybe that could be a thing? While it doesn't really fix what's been said here, it would offer variety. Like if every so often a random spurt of astral creatures entered Lithmore due to the weakened barrier between Physical and Astral as a result of the Darkest days plot. Like just at random times with no prior warning. It could be believable, fit into the plot, and I don't imagine it would be too entirely difficult to do. Just a side thought.

And while yes I am on hiatus, I still intend on watching the forums, mostly out of curiosity.

[Dice]

I wouldn't call myself particularly hack and slash oriented!

What draws me to the existence of such a thing is the RP that'd exist around it if it was done right. Secrets and mysteries around the nature of the area, its cause. You could, I believe, use mobprogs and other building tricks to set the area up so that it was a quest - with things to discover, possibly even in the long-term a way to undo the damage. In the shorter term, there'd be interesting RP around wanting to explore it, map it out. And there'd be the RP of dealing with the risk of it overflowing into nearby areas. Needing to engage in this continual fight (ICly - you wouldn't want to set it up so you literally had to do this) to keep it under control.

Point being, it isn't about the actual fighting in the slightest, it's about the RP that can arise from having a source of conflict. But, yes, you do have to do it right to prevent it from devolving into a bunch of spam. I'm not proposing just loose random mobs in an area and call it a day - more that a thoughtfully designed situation, with staff commitment to facilitate interaction, could really add an edge to the world, and occupation for those who want more conflict than day-to-day RP provides.

[BattleJenkins]

I do think the current climate of the game is much more geared toward PvE than PvP - there is, generally speaking, lots of benefit to working together, and absolutely no benefit to causing trouble from a game rules / mechanics standpoint.

Something I would like to see is something that's sort of like staff-run plots, but run by trusted players who are given the opportunity create 'antagonist' characters that may have access to extra resources - like a greater sway over the vNPC populace, their own meager faction of NPC troublemakers, or other benefits that make them a meaningful threat to the status quo, with the understanding that they'll use this power to facilitate conflict and RP rather than shut it down, and most likely eventually meet their end at the hands of the 'heroic' playerbase.