The R & S Words

[Leech]

Unfortunately, I don't think we can have an unemotional discussion about this topic - which is why it's usually shut down pretty quick when talked about on the channels - and I get it. It's something that some people have had to deal with. But to say that it adds no value to a narrative is just a flat out lie. This game is based on the narrative, and rape/suicide are both very horrible actions that (obviously, look at this forum) affect people very strongly. How can that not add more layers to a story? And is that not what we're all here for - the narrative and story?

The most prominent and recent example (and I'm getting a bit tired of always referring to it...) is Game of Thrones. No spoilers, don't worry. But in this last season we went through a very large story arc of a certain evil character showing us that he actually has a good deal of redeeming qualities. Then, what does he do? Rapes a family member. It's a hard pill to swallow, it makes everyone hate him once more, and it makes the audience feel uncomfortable and dirty. There were so many things going on in that scene - from hatred and anger to reflecting quite poignantly what the overall state of the relationship between the two characters was now at - and, most obviously, it told us how stupid we were for trusting that character, for thinking they could ever continue their good streak.

As an author you can say 'I'll have Joe kill an adult instead of a baby' but will it really have the same affect - or the reaction you want? Literature has the unique position of, in my opinion, being able to touch on these horrible things and shed light on them without promoting that people actually do it. Sometimes, literature is even a strong voice against rape culture because of its voyeuristic qualities (see, American Horror Story series, a show that will make you so completely uncomfortable because it has no qualms about throwing rape culture in your face, among other things).

Sorry, this is quickly becoming a tangent. In the end, Onyx is right - there will be the greater majority who will feel uncomfortable or outright angry about having these things in the game. I could sooner change your minds about politics than I could about this subject - but I did want to make my opinion a little clearer, after that last post.

[Geras]

Game of Thrones probably isn't the best example, because the producers said that seen was not meant to be perceive as rape, and they're just incompetent assholes.

[Kinaed]

I think that heinous things happening in literature are great for literature and the story. I also agree with Casimir and Cellan's stance - I think TI players are pretty mature, and as long as it's OOCly consensual, then the IC story should be as dark as those involved want it to be...

The problem is that real people generally are not hurt in the writing or portrayal of literature. In an RP situation, there's someone sitting in a chair, who may well be wigging out at the pseudo-experience. Someone who may well be under age. Someone who can't just put the story down and walk away without feeling an obligation to explain why.

This also isn't establishing a new game where these rules are being laid out, this is changing existing rules on the subject. Thus, changing them means sending a message that we want these topics in our environment, enough to alienate valuable players.

Rape in particular doesn't have the necessary player support, and in saying that, I'm not talking about numbers, I'm talking about passion. As much as Cellan, Casimir and I might generally be pro allowing whatever-the-heck-people-want-to-RP within theme, we probably only mildly care about having rape or suicide allowed. For us, what is allowed is mostly a theoretical exercise in logic. The people who are against allowing these changes are rabidly against it; several of them know the real fall out effects of these topics, either from direct or indirect experience, and it is not a theoretical question at all.

I'm not really concerned about the environment or attracting the wrong sort - we deal with assholes on a case by case basis, and I have no issues about dealing with someone for OOCly making unwanted sexual advances and not backing off when told they ought to. It's rare, but I can actually say that I've done it before. Rather, I just don't want to lose players over it, and I know we will. Good players. In some cases, friends.

The irony is that they may well walk away to a game that allows all of these things, but didn't alienate them by saying their passionate voices on the matter weren't important enough.

[Applesauce]

I'd just point out that Bennie was castrated with a dull knife so I don't think the bar is exactly set low on the violence and brutality in the game. Again, thats something players probably don't actually have to worry about happened to them and their loved ones...

I've been close to someone that committed suicide. It's a devastating event, whether the person is family, a friend, or just an acquaintance. But I would rather RP suicide myself or see someone RP suicide than play either side of serious physical torture (and I was a GI =P).

I know someone else who is vehemently against drug RP, moreso than I've ever heard anyone speak out against rape or torture RP. You're always going to offend someone, we all have different lines in different places and there's no way to globally allow ANY theme without crossing someone's boundaries.

As long as the "graphic" command exists, I feel that any theme can be allowed in a general sense. Whatever your personal limits are, if you're in a scene that you cannot excuse yourself from and refuse to play it, that command lets you accept the situation occurred without dealing with the particulars. It does reduce immersion, sure, and maybe the other person or people have to figure out a resolution without your input, but I think that's a small price to pay for not scarring a real life human being.

[Pixie]

I'm of the opinion, re: IC rape, that if a group of self-determining adults consent to play out a story arc, then they should be allowed to do whatever they want (within the bounds of the game's rules). We also have torture, infanticide, people skinning others alive, slavery, abortion, and horrible mutilations, but we don't outlaw them so long as all players involved are willing to take part (and not FTB). Why would we not also ban things like that?

I'm super late to the party. Still, exactly what Cellan said. I suspect I can be over-sensitive to a great many topics, but I would still be one of the biggest voters for "yes" on allowing any situation to be roleplayed between consenting adults.

[Zeita]

I've always been somewhat in the no rape RP camp, and in large part because I know that we've lost players before just from discussing the issue, because yes, it can be emotive. I've also seen the trauma that can result from same to people RL.

That said, and as Cellan and a few others rightly point out, we do allow players to partake in other heinous and traumatic RP, such that rape and suicide seem to be an odd place to draw exclusionary lines around.

To cut it short, this is supposed to be a brutal setting and I'd be alright with allowing these things to happen in game with the usual caveats (graphic, OOC consent).

Thanks for reading,
Zeita.