I can hardly agree that this would stagnate RP. Messengers are a thing and so are pboards which can -easily- do what you want. If anything, the lack of using messengers to make things happen and seeking out OOC methods to arrange RP have damaged the roleplaying atmosphere of the game extensively.
As for Discord - Discord should absolutely NOT be being used to arrange RP and influence anything in the game.
Blackballing
I think it's worth going to the reddit thread and upvoting Giles' comments and posting a quick reply for anyone who has time.
Look, I think the people with really toxic comments aren't playing here anymore, so I don't think there's much that can be done.
Personal comments aside though, I do think they make some legitimate points, and I hope even though the message is meant to be hurtful that some of the other points can get their due consideration.
What we have I don't think is a toxic culture among current players, but a toxic culture among ex-players. That's something that still can be addressed though. We've lost some of our best players over the years to IMHO needless conflict with the imms and people being unwilling to just give someone a pass every once in a while. Every time we lose a pillar of the community, it means others leave with a bitter taste in their mouth too.
Not a popular message I know. Sorry.
Look, I think the people with really toxic comments aren't playing here anymore, so I don't think there's much that can be done.
Personal comments aside though, I do think they make some legitimate points, and I hope even though the message is meant to be hurtful that some of the other points can get their due consideration.
What we have I don't think is a toxic culture among current players, but a toxic culture among ex-players. That's something that still can be addressed though. We've lost some of our best players over the years to IMHO needless conflict with the imms and people being unwilling to just give someone a pass every once in a while. Every time we lose a pillar of the community, it means others leave with a bitter taste in their mouth too.
Not a popular message I know. Sorry.
Just popping back in for a moment. This post is coming from a much more objective source than myself, and I'm posting it on their behalf.
The reviews make some clear points about people's displeasure with the game. It's clear that any conversation about those topics in the OOC meetings, the forum, or even reviews are being shot down with the keywords 'blackballing' or 'harassment', so that frustration needs to be manifest somewhere.
Therefore take a look at what the posts are actually saying. Kinaed said she hasn't read the reddit thread - maybe she should and pick out what people are actually saying, separating them from the pent-up anger. Maybe look at the TMC review which was pretty constructive until the finger-painting comment. Perhaps even do this with someone else present to keep the read-through constructive.
The only way to stop these negative comments is to not do what they're accusing and focusing on improving your game. (And it is your game)
One option is to deny the opinions in the review, and if that's the case the admin need to look at how the players reached these conclusions and why they're discontent with the game.
It has become clear that the reviews that get the most attention are the ones that insult Kinaed. Perhaps that's why the reviewers have done it, but it's not having the effect they wanted of getting their points addressed - only their insults re-posted in OOC meetings.
When the concerns aren't addressed, the next 'fix' for the reviewer is to ask for Kinaed to be removed, collaborate with someone else to deal with policy that might listen to their concerns, or step back from the game.
The summary of all these reviews is that people are so passionate about the game that they're being vocal about it in any medium they can, but it's very clear that none of the reviews are asking for the game to be shut down.
Also the idea that these posts are from a single disgruntled person is ludicrous. That the up-votes on the dissenting reddit post comments has doubled since it was posted by Kinaed speaks volumes. A lot of people are sharing these opinions but not wanting to express them, which is the real cause of the issues.
For those unfamiliar with reddit, making a brand new account to post a very positive comment about something that recently received negative press is a common tactic which is shunned by the community - I wouldn't take this personally.
The best fix for the negative reviews are to look at them critically, understand what has caused them and address it directly. (Whether it's transparency in policy, making solid rules people can play by, giving GLs more automation etc etc). The absolute worst thing here is to punish more people for having strong opinions, because they will double down and become more insidious.
I'm sorry I couldn't post this to the forum myself. It is through no negative feelings to anyone involved from either side of the argument. I haven't been banned from the game or the forum in the past.
TL;DR: look at the reviews constructively, read through the criticism and make it into something constructive. Establish why your players are not saying this in the open.
Rothgar Astartes, Fyurii Rynnya, Nils 'Smith' Mattias, Edward Darson, Curos Arents.
Honestly, I think y'all are just making this whole reddit thing even worse.
When I first read it when it came to light like a week ago, there was some brief discussion (among just TI players) and maybe one comment from somebody else in the community. Now there's more comments, from OTHER TI players, arguing with the earlier TI players, trying to do some kind of shitty damage control.
We're assuming that the community at /r/MUD gives a shit, which I promise you, they probably don't. TI is not on their radar of MUD discussion, and the drama probably is just going to make more people avoid it.
I think Rothgar is probably right here, this is getting blown way out of proportion. People are taking it too personally and too seriously. People get heated, go say shitty things on a public forum, that's the nature of the internet. If you want to police that around these parts, it's obviously acceptable as you are the master of your domain, but you're getting into weird territory when talking about hunting after these witches who are making negative comments somewhere else. Who cares? Anybody who is at all drawn by the description of the game will probably check it out anyways, because every MUD has issues with people getting mad and posting bad reviews.
As far as Discord goes, the cat is out of the bag on that one. You have to strike a balance between providing modern ways to support a community, like discord, and reducing OOC scheming/whatever you want to call it. These forums aren't good for a community. There's a reason the running joke is that 'this is where ideas go to die.' The problem that most mud administrators are going to find is that people are going to find ways to connect anyways. You can make it harder, sure, but at this point all the connections have been made. I'm not advocating for either side here, just noting that you're not going to be able to achieve what you want.
When I first read it when it came to light like a week ago, there was some brief discussion (among just TI players) and maybe one comment from somebody else in the community. Now there's more comments, from OTHER TI players, arguing with the earlier TI players, trying to do some kind of shitty damage control.
We're assuming that the community at /r/MUD gives a shit, which I promise you, they probably don't. TI is not on their radar of MUD discussion, and the drama probably is just going to make more people avoid it.
I think Rothgar is probably right here, this is getting blown way out of proportion. People are taking it too personally and too seriously. People get heated, go say shitty things on a public forum, that's the nature of the internet. If you want to police that around these parts, it's obviously acceptable as you are the master of your domain, but you're getting into weird territory when talking about hunting after these witches who are making negative comments somewhere else. Who cares? Anybody who is at all drawn by the description of the game will probably check it out anyways, because every MUD has issues with people getting mad and posting bad reviews.
As far as Discord goes, the cat is out of the bag on that one. You have to strike a balance between providing modern ways to support a community, like discord, and reducing OOC scheming/whatever you want to call it. These forums aren't good for a community. There's a reason the running joke is that 'this is where ideas go to die.' The problem that most mud administrators are going to find is that people are going to find ways to connect anyways. You can make it harder, sure, but at this point all the connections have been made. I'm not advocating for either side here, just noting that you're not going to be able to achieve what you want.
I can't really lay the blame at the feet of the immortals on this. I've yet to see a ban that didn't come after multiple issues with the player involved or a player leave in a fit over something that the staff couldn't justify. This game's immortal staff has been fairly transparent compared to many others I've played on. The problem is that some of us are friends with the players involved and when that sort of feeling becomes involved, it's easy to fall into the trap of blaming it on the person or persons who upset them.
I'm saying this from the point of view of someone who has both played and staffed as an immortal on other games, so take it how you will:
The feeling that we're owed anything by staff, especially by the game's administrator, is an entitlement issue on the part of the playerbase. If someone doesn't like the admin's choices, they're free to go somewhere that suits them better where they can have their happy fun times at their own discretion. I feel airing grievances over issues is perfectly okay if they're done in a constructive manner, but ultimately the decision comes down to the staff members who run the game and the administrator who both runs and pays for our play. I'm saying this as someone who has and still will write about things I do or don't like regarding game changes.
If for example Kinaed wants things a certain way, then that's something that should be accepted. We, in no way, dictate the running of the game, its code base, or its theme.
I'm saying this from the point of view of someone who has both played and staffed as an immortal on other games, so take it how you will:
The feeling that we're owed anything by staff, especially by the game's administrator, is an entitlement issue on the part of the playerbase. If someone doesn't like the admin's choices, they're free to go somewhere that suits them better where they can have their happy fun times at their own discretion. I feel airing grievances over issues is perfectly okay if they're done in a constructive manner, but ultimately the decision comes down to the staff members who run the game and the administrator who both runs and pays for our play. I'm saying this as someone who has and still will write about things I do or don't like regarding game changes.
If for example Kinaed wants things a certain way, then that's something that should be accepted. We, in no way, dictate the running of the game, its code base, or its theme.
[STAFF: This post was reported for direct player insults, which have been edited out.]
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Nobody here is pretending we're owed anything by Staff. Kinaed came into this thread to look for opinions. The people who are bringing up these reviews are pointing out that there ARE areas that can be addressed, and there is some valid criticism. They aren't saying 'This is your fault and we are all worse for it.' I mean, some might be, but not an overwhelming majority by any means.
That said, the core group of this game has played for years. Most of them are WELL AWARE they can leave at any time they choose. That doesn't mean we can't have a vested interest in voicing concerns or opinions about the direction of the game. Kinaed, and other staff, are free to take any or none of it into consideration. The core group of this game is composed primarily of people that've played for numerous years, they have a desire to see the game go in a good direction just as much as staff do.
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Nobody here is pretending we're owed anything by Staff. Kinaed came into this thread to look for opinions. The people who are bringing up these reviews are pointing out that there ARE areas that can be addressed, and there is some valid criticism. They aren't saying 'This is your fault and we are all worse for it.' I mean, some might be, but not an overwhelming majority by any means.
That said, the core group of this game has played for years. Most of them are WELL AWARE they can leave at any time they choose. That doesn't mean we can't have a vested interest in voicing concerns or opinions about the direction of the game. Kinaed, and other staff, are free to take any or none of it into consideration. The core group of this game is composed primarily of people that've played for numerous years, they have a desire to see the game go in a good direction just as much as staff do.
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The_Last_Good_Dragon
- Posts: 254
- Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2016 1:08 am
I think it doesn't hurt that my Discord handle and my reddit account are the same, eh? But both Evrald and Rothgar are correct -- if I'd wanted to remain anonymous for the post, it wouldn't have taken anything but a couple of minutes to obfuscate my opinion. A few more and I could make an effort to impersonate someone -- it's REALLY not that hard. I made that post knowing that people would recognize me because I personally feel like if you want to express a counter-opinion you shouldn't feel the need to do so anonymously; I did edit out the phrase "a frail ego" from it as that was meaninglessly pugnacious of me.Voxumo wrote:The supposed anonymity is debatable. I know exactly who the top reply to the reddit post is, given their choice in wording and posts in the actual game, and we can at least assume one of the other posters is the same person who wrote the mudconnect review given their choice of phrasing.
However, to address the question asked, I think that trying to monitor systems off of TLI is both futile and ineffective. People will find ways to share their opinion if sharing their opinion / venting frustration is the goal. It is remarkably easy to impersonate someone on these domains, or in the case of IM's quite easy to doctor a log in your favor.
I think, often, some players lose sight that this game is, ultimately, less a "game" and more a "writing community". Things like tells and Discord, the OOC channel, etc. keep this place as a community — few of us honestly care about the game mechanics of it, as these ultimately only exist to support the writing and the role-play. Players WILL link up regardless and find ways to vent their frustrations, both privately or, when they feel the need to, more publicly. Staff will never, ever, ever be able to change that.
chronodbu wrote: I'll personally use the Baronial Council as an example - I've worked hard for Roland because I genuinely like him and my characters have had legit reasons to like him over Celeste. I know others have supported him as well, but the vocal side of our pbase who want to make it an OOC issue have poisoned the well so harshly that we're seeing this explosion.
Re-Edit-Edit — I had some stuff here that doesn't really contribute to this discussion — I guess it's still up in the following response, and while I am a bit tired of the language used, I'm going to back away and apologize for making it an issue. There's more appropriate avenues to express this thought!
Last edited by The_Last_Good_Dragon on Sun Jul 22, 2018 3:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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