Individual Piety

[Starstarfish]

No one in their right ooc mind would reveal something so damaging that it threatens the reputation or life of their character, unless priming them for death and a reroll or liquidation.

But that's the very core of the disconnect - OOCly you realize that doing so is a risk you likely don't want to take. However, if the game is going to have actual meaty conflict and things for Order characters to address besides dangerous killer mages, that means people who are indeed willing to go and confess to things beyond the basic level. I also don't think I should in fairness advocate that people make things up that didn't occur in RP just to give fake confessions.

But if people want to roleplay good Davites - good Davites would confess things that are likely damaging and indeed dangerous because they would legit feel that the concern for their soul was worth more than staying alive. And that's the disconnect to work around.

[Kinaed]

People don't confess because it can get them into trouble, but the theme (as per the help files) is that confession is supposed to be inviolate and sealed. The issue as I see it is that the *players* in the Order have publicly declared that they will not allow people to confess things like magery, etc, without repercussion despite what the help files say.

As per HELP SINS AND ATONEMENT

"As such, confession and the cleansing that goes along with it are feared at
times even by the most loyal Davites. However, confessions between priests
and supplicants are forever sealed and private-- only able to be breached
by the Patriarch himself. Additionally, known sinners who refuse to repent
on their own will often receive a visit from Church Inquisitors, and
avoiding their reach is punished far more strictly than by those priests
conducting confession."

Basically, it should be considered doing something wrong and sacrilegious for a member of the Order to disclose sins or information to others about a confession. Typically clergy are not Inquisitors, and clergy are supposed to take confession. The clergy should tell a mage, "If you're really penitent about that, turn yourself in".

Also, I do hope that penance the Order places on people follows the Book of Penances. Most aren't that scary or arduous. "Go bathe in the river and contemplate your sin" or "wear a scarlet letter on your dress" doesn't really strike me as the end of the world or RP worth avoiding.

[Rhothrian]

Ok, I get that. However, I'm guessing that the number of people going to confession currently is quite small. Risk vs reward isn't adding up. You would typically see people confessing with material as they would a hook from pvent. I may not have ever seen a spider before but when the pvent is prompting me to tell the story of how I was bit I roll with it. Sure, you'll have the occasional braver player confessing something dangerous but what's the point if it's a sealed piece of information. Even then, its a rather empty gesture.

Folks can do all manner of other things and get RPXP in scenes that involve material they consider fun. Players need incentive to do things in any game system or it becomes something that just isn't utilized and exists in name only. I guarantee you that if there are coded incentives to confession you will see a rise in the use.

I don't particularly enjoy being hobbled for days after suffering an injury in combat but I accept it as part of this glorious combat system. I don't particularly like having to spend silver on an asset system to provide income when I was getting paid a decent amount from social status but I accept it as something that's probably going to be good for the game.

It seems as if even some are inclined toward seeing the priest as more of a politician or bureaucrat instead of a spiritual leader conducting rituals that provide benefit to mind and morale, so I'll post this again...

Alternate Sermon Idea:

What if sermon functioned in a similar manner as a rumor for the priest. They could select a theme based on some current event or whatever Erra Patter tie in they wished to speak on that day and people could interact as they wished to. The difference is that real names of the speaker as well as people who respond are released to the public and would bestow a onetime award to piety for participation as well as counting toward the influence total for that week for the speaking priest. This would simulate the priest and congregation sitting in the same space IC without forcing someone to sit through an actual event. In addition to the influence and piety awards the sermon could even act as a vote toward an appropriate city metric to the theme, flushed out during the construction of the sermon as a free vote. Now you have a situation where the powers that be will start seeking out members of the clergy for support, which opens up opportunities for other RP avenues.

“Fund our southside food drive and we will see about talking to the merchant’s guild to lower the taxes on certain imported goods.”

“Support our community outreach and education program to improve race relations and we will see if we can summon up funds for your city infrastructure plan."

[Starstarfish]

The issue as I see it is that the *players* in the Order have publicly declared that they will not allow people to confess things like magery, etc, without repercussion despite what the help files say.

Not to argue, but when did this happen? I've had people personally confess all kinds of things to me and they weren't arrested or punished. Indeed, there's been recommendations about people enjoying the scenes, so I'm not sure that it's as dire as is being presented. Granted, I've never actually had someone just straight confess to magery before they were already arrested for it.

The last person to my knowledge who confessed to a Priest about magery also in the same scene threatened to kill said Priest so I'm thinking that kind of influenced that.

In the eyes of both members of the Holy Order and layfolk alike, the Order exists to protect the people from the foul taint of sin, of which magic is the darkest manifestation.

Any use of the taint will inevitably lead to further corruption, eventually ending in evil and madness. When the taint has progressed far enough that a person is able to use their wicked powers, only fire can cleanse the soul and make it acceptable to the Lord of the Springs.

How does letting a mage confess and simply continue to taint themselves and others around them fulfill that stated purpose? At what point does that priest have some higher duty to do something?

Also, I do hope that penance the Order places on people follows the Book of Penances. Most aren't that scary or arduous. "Go bathe in the river and contemplate your sin" or "wear a scarlet letter on your dress" doesn't really strike me as the end of the world or RP worth avoiding.

In my experience, yes, they've been along those lines.

The only thing that is difficult to suggest is visits to the Springs themselves as I've heard that staff don't prefer organizing/sending folks off-grid to far away places.

[Rothgar]

“Fund our southside food drive and we will see about talking to the merchant’s guild to lower the taxes on certain imported goods.”

Players notice this, Brotherhood gets involved with Orderite business, and someone winds up either bullied out of the game or dead. This has actually been tried multiple, multiple times (to the point where Order involvement is a pretty heavy joke with Orderites in Southside) - the most recent time this was done, three people wound up dead, and the group that started the outreach programme fought among itself to the point where murder was involved. Additionally, the Order talking to the Merchants has historically never gone well, and always ended with either A) The Order attempting to frak over the Merchants or B) The Merchants attempting to frak over the Order. 9/10 times, it ends in tears and probably some murder.

“Support our community outreach and education program to improve race relations and we will see if we can summon up funds for your city infrastructure plan."

Last time we ran this plot, it lead to an invasion of the Charalin Plains. I'll let you connect the dots on how that went.

People don't confess because it can get them into trouble, but the theme (as per the help files) is that confession is supposed to be inviolate and sealed. The issue as I see it is that the *players* in the Order have publicly declared that they will not allow people to confess things like magery, etc, without repercussion despite what the help files say.

I'd pay you cash money to find a character that'd stick around for more then 2 weeks, who'd take a confession about a person being a mage and kept quiet about it. Besides, if you completely ignore that sort of confession, doesn't that go against tenants of Davism about Taint? I mean, that's not a coded thing anymore, so I can understand how people completely ignore it, but if you know a character is a Mage, wouldn't you have to make a judgement call about calling them out for the purpose of... I don't know, saving others? Saving the City?

Basically, it should be considered doing something wrong and sacrilegious for a member of the Order to disclose sins or information to others about a confession. Typically clergy are not Inquisitors, and clergy are supposed to take confession. The clergy should tell a mage, "If you're really penitent about that, turn yourself in".

Typically, yes. Clergy should take confessions. We do what we can with what we have. Last Clergymember we had literally got run out of town by a couple of overenthusiastic combat characters, and we haven't had a priest that's stuck around more than a week since then.


Lets just be honest, and call a spade a spade. Orderite RP is all over the place, theme is wacky as Arien, the Order is completely broken, and we're seriously struggling to pick up the pieces. Every now and again, someone will pop into the guild for a week or two that helps out, but most times people just dip from the Order without saying or doing anything. Or, even better, someone will join the Order with the sole purpose of mucking it up for the rest of us, which is always a gas. This thread isn't doing much for my faith in the system, to be quite honest.

[Starstarfish]

Sure, you'll have the occasional braver player confessing something dangerous but what's the point if it's a sealed piece of information. Even then, its a rather empty gesture.

Even if it doesn't become a wide spread piece of info, it can certainly provide some inner conflict with the person it's shared with. And even if RP wise they never say a word to anyone, given that there are people about who can indeed read thoughts, it could still get into RP in some manner, even if RP wise the priest in question didn't reveal it. So I wouldn't say it's an empty gesture.

I sort of like the sermon idea, it was something I sort of suggested at some point about people being able to post confessions in a rumours like fashion as well. So even if people can't scene, they could post confessions that people could follow up on later.

[Voxumo]

Lets just be honest, and call a spade a spade. Orderite RP is all over the place, theme is wacky as Arien, the Order is completely broken, and we're seriously struggling to pick up the pieces. Every now and again, someone will pop into the guild for a week or two that helps out, but most times people just dip from the Order without saying or doing anything. Or, even better, someone will join the Order with the sole purpose of mucking it up for the rest of us, which is always a gas. This thread isn't doing much for my faith in the system, to be quite honest.

I'll never forget the page who became grand inquisitor overnight... I still can't believe that was even allowed to happen, even with the "Excuse/Backstory" that was provided.

[Rhothrian]

Lets just be honest, and call a spade a spade. Orderite RP is all over the place, theme is wacky as Arien, the Order is completely broken, and we're seriously struggling to pick up the pieces. Every now and again, someone will pop into the guild for a week or two that helps out, but most times people just dip from the Order without saying or doing anything. Or, even better, someone will join the Order with the sole purpose of mucking it up for the rest of us, which is always a gas. This thread isn't doing much for my faith in the system, to be quite honest.

To be honest, I'm hearing a lot of complaining in your reply but nothing really toward the lines of actually providing a viable solution toward incentivizing players into becoming priests again. If you want status quo in that regard with clergy who play for a week, feel hollow and bored as a concept without much real purpose and then bailing then please continue to be a naysayer. A few things failed in the past so we should never attempt a new approach? If you want to see a bolstered role which is providing tangible benefit to players within the community then add to the thread. We are all ears

I’m sorry if you are a little bitter over past events that haven’t gone the way you wanted them to, but things change. We also didn’t have an asset system making the city metric even more important than it was back then. Why murder a priest when you can bribe and or influence them to vote the way you want them to? Even if they are murdered is that not driving the Rp and conflict that people say they are looking for here? I don’t want my character to die any more than I think you want yours to, so what does that mean? Go through the motions and pretend you are performing your role and never do anything political or with economic ramifications that may get your killed? Is this not why we have death exp? Perhaps you as a priest might pick your battles carefully as well to avoid involving yourself in compromising deals until you can protect yourself or are savvy enough to make appropriate allies. Increase the stakes of the game and increase the danger.

Interdependency is what builds strong cooperative activity within communities regarding multiplayer games across the board, period. Any well-balanced system will have various examples of this present. I get that TI has some unique aspects about it but that doesn’t change that fact. Priests as they exist currently aren’t necessary or needed other than promotion into the inquisition. If that is all you want them to be it’s a little disappointing to hear but so be it. In my opinion, they need their own mechanic that is beneficial to others and a purpose other than providing RP hooks that no one wants to participate in, I strongly suspect because of ooc tendencies.

In no other game played have I seen a shortage of spiritualists, be it tabletop, muds or mmorpgs because THOSE clergy provide a function necessary for the survival of the other characters that seek them out. In TI, conflict is not common at all compared to other platforms as RP is the focus, with everything else being secondary for most players. In that regard, the priest needs to be given a viable purpose that will provide an important and desired function for other members of the community affecting aspects that MOST find of value. Obviously, the religious RP alone isn’t getting it done.

[Starstarfish]

Go through the motions and pretend you are performing your role and never do anything political or with economic ramifications that may get your killed? Is this not why we have death exp?

One thing to ponder and consider is that Priests don't have a "skill set" so to say to naturally funnel into DeathXP - IE - you can in theory run a Priest with no actual coded skills and only RP.

I think that could be an interesting thing to consider actually, adding some Priestly skills of some kind though I can't ponder off the top of my head what they might be at the moment. It might flesh out the role a bit compared to the other Guilds if the Order did have some Guild restricted skills of some kind.

[Rabek]

To reiterate what has been said by others (and myself): code can never save a situation where theme and RP is the problem. You can propose all the mechanical solutions you want, but if people can't or won't roleplay it, that makes no difference on a roleplaying game.

And as long as everyone in the guild is continuously thrown under the bus for the sake of keeping the GL slots filled (like the aforementioned page-to-GI, or the last time I tried to play Archbishop, or my friend who tried to play an Orderite scholar who only ever got grief or ignored for it), the problem won't be solved no matter how many toys get thrown at the Order.

You seem keen on repeatedly dismissing the opinions of people who actually play(ed) Orderites. Maybe don't do that.

The problem is social, not mechanical. New toys might draw someone in for a week or two, but they'll just be driven out again.