Blackballing
[This post is being cleared for the sake of being civil and avoiding harsh feelings between myself and the previous poster. Any differences will be handled privately through other channels.]
Last edited by chronodbu on Sun Jul 22, 2018 3:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
That said - I don't really think punishing a player for something posted in a medium not under the control of TI is feasible. It would reflect poorly on the game and we can't really be sure who exactly it might be unless they outright admitted to it.
Bad reviews do happen. My biggest concern is when they devolve to wishing actual harm on someone.
Bad reviews do happen. My biggest concern is when they devolve to wishing actual harm on someone.
I'm very glad to see engagement on this thread, though I'm sad to see that a lot of posts here focused on Reddit example solely. It was only one example in a generalized series of examples, only one or two of which could even actually be construed as being about me. While I am not without an ego, that focus speaks either of sour grapes or a genuine miss of what I've asked for and why.
There's a real question in this thread about how players feel about staff policy, and I thank those players who responded with their views about that. I'll ponder it a bit further before I take any stances and allow players to continue speaking on this thread because I feel like we've heard the polarized views, but possibly not the middle.
One thing I do personally think is that I got the impression that perhaps some people think that blackballing is justified because a person is frustrated. I disagree - by that thinking, committing crimes is justified because a person is unable to cope with their emotions. Imagine a world where murder is okay because a spouse was angered.
In my opinion, blackballing is simply wrong; it's a subset of bullying. It's one thing to dislike a person or disagree with them, it is another thing to attempt to ostracize or harm someone because of it. Being frustrated and acting out just shows that 1) the person in question cannot control their emotions and 2) the person in question is willing to do harm to other people. This may make them look bad, but the harm is still done to their target, which was their intent. For this reason, it is not a behavior allowed on TI, has not been since inception, and we will take action regarding players we feel engage in this OOCly.
There's a real question in this thread about how players feel about staff policy, and I thank those players who responded with their views about that. I'll ponder it a bit further before I take any stances and allow players to continue speaking on this thread because I feel like we've heard the polarized views, but possibly not the middle.
One thing I do personally think is that I got the impression that perhaps some people think that blackballing is justified because a person is frustrated. I disagree - by that thinking, committing crimes is justified because a person is unable to cope with their emotions. Imagine a world where murder is okay because a spouse was angered.
In my opinion, blackballing is simply wrong; it's a subset of bullying. It's one thing to dislike a person or disagree with them, it is another thing to attempt to ostracize or harm someone because of it. Being frustrated and acting out just shows that 1) the person in question cannot control their emotions and 2) the person in question is willing to do harm to other people. This may make them look bad, but the harm is still done to their target, which was their intent. For this reason, it is not a behavior allowed on TI, has not been since inception, and we will take action regarding players we feel engage in this OOCly.
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The_Last_Good_Dragon
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- Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2016 1:08 am
I don't think we all are treating "blackballing" under the same definition. Venting frustration, both about a game, player, or member of staff isn't inherently blackballing. Blackballing is a term applied to working behind someone's back in an effort to exclude them from whatever applicable situation. In a MUD setting, that usually translates towards doing things like telling someone not to RP with X person, whether implicitly or explicitly. I haven't seen that happen: what I have seen happen is players voice displeasure over certain decisions and attitudes by Staff, which more falls under what MUD Reviews are meant to be. Treating those reviewers negatively will probably just increase the nature of those complaints against TI:L, taking a probably mostly harmless situation into something much worse.
If we are treating any critical OOC discussion with others about a person's behavior as blackballing, then doing things like sharing snippets of a private conversation you have with a player to the rest of the staff and mocking the player's stance or the manner in which they have that conversation would probably fall under that umbrella, which is something that you, Kinaed, have recently done yourself.
If we are treating any critical OOC discussion with others about a person's behavior as blackballing, then doing things like sharing snippets of a private conversation you have with a player to the rest of the staff and mocking the player's stance or the manner in which they have that conversation would probably fall under that umbrella, which is something that you, Kinaed, have recently done yourself.
~~ Team Farra'n'Stuff. ~~
I have no idea what you're referring to with regarding to sharing snippets of anything, please contact me in game and show me what you're referring to? Please do not pick a public fight with me.
I do think that it is worthwhile to define blackballing clearly, because I do agree that perhaps there's a difference in opinion about what it is. That said, ultimately determining what is or isn't blackballing in the context of TI is the responsibility of staff, and even more explicitly, myself. We are committed to make it clear what the expectations are prior to enforcing them, however, and further in understanding our community before making such stances. Still, once decided, such things are not a negotiation; it's how we run our system.
I do think that it is worthwhile to define blackballing clearly, because I do agree that perhaps there's a difference in opinion about what it is. That said, ultimately determining what is or isn't blackballing in the context of TI is the responsibility of staff, and even more explicitly, myself. We are committed to make it clear what the expectations are prior to enforcing them, however, and further in understanding our community before making such stances. Still, once decided, such things are not a negotiation; it's how we run our system.
The problem with critical OOC discussion with others is whether or not the player is constantly doing it to everyone around them about that person. There's a point where it crosses the line of telling someone your opinion and actively painting that person into a corner of being a social pariah.
You don't have to specifically say "don't rp with that guy" to blackball. It's just as easily done by manipulating everyone around you into avoiding them and/or creating a negative atmosphere for them.
You don't have to specifically say "don't rp with that guy" to blackball. It's just as easily done by manipulating everyone around you into avoiding them and/or creating a negative atmosphere for them.
I've sadly seen examples of both, and I think both are harmful. The toughest ones are when people think they're not blackballing, and to that end I agree with The_Last_Good_Dragon that we need to be explicitly clear about what blackballing is, maybe with examples. It is very easy to vent and cross the line, or even just cross the line trying to discuss an issue - but if that's the case then the line has to be clear and highly visible for everyone, whether they agree where the line sits or not.
I just want to mention, asking others to a reddit post specifically to upvote or downvote is against reddit's rules. It's fine to encourage people to have a look at posts on reddit, but specifically asking them to vote will cause more harm than good. I'd encourage anyone linking to a reddit post change the url to start with np.reddit.com (no participation) to avoid what's known on reddit as 'brigading'.
What I'm gathering at this stage is that people in general *do* agree blackballing is wrong, but they may disagree on what blackballing actually is or feel that dealing with it is futile.
I'd love for people to tell us what they believe is blackballing, and what they believe is not blackballing and why. This will help me update our Blackballing helpfile with examples and comments about enforcement.
NOTE: From a staff standpoint, it's hard to see the source of blackballing whether it happens on TI or off - it usually does occur on private channels that we do not monitor either in-game (tells) or elsewhere (Discord or a host of other IM services; potentially Reddit as mentioned). What we usually see are the results without a clear source, even if we know who is likely the source is. This is why so much of the blackballing that staff actually know about goes unpunished or unremarked - detection is weak. Any thoughts on how to address this are welcome.
I'd love for people to tell us what they believe is blackballing, and what they believe is not blackballing and why. This will help me update our Blackballing helpfile with examples and comments about enforcement.
NOTE: From a staff standpoint, it's hard to see the source of blackballing whether it happens on TI or off - it usually does occur on private channels that we do not monitor either in-game (tells) or elsewhere (Discord or a host of other IM services; potentially Reddit as mentioned). What we usually see are the results without a clear source, even if we know who is likely the source is. This is why so much of the blackballing that staff actually know about goes unpunished or unremarked - detection is weak. Any thoughts on how to address this are welcome.
Well, Kinaed, all of your questions were answered in multiple previous posts : how to deal to what you perceive as blackballing, what the "blackballing" you're referring to actually is, why you shouldn't even bother with it, and why you're playing directly into the hand that others are feeding you. I'm a little confused as to how you still have all these questions.
For what it's worth, no one's blackballing you. By the very definition of it, which is here :
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackballing)
Like I said in my post - like multiple people said in multiple posts and multiple reviews that you evidently just haven't read - most of these reviews are overwhelmingly positive. They're generally really shining for the MUD, and generally paint an overall incredibly positive picture of it. Then, as a footnote, they say that the staff are generally horrible. They just don't take a shine to YOU. No one's going around with a club or a pitchfork and forcing people not to play. No one's forming a secret little group and trying to take down TI one review at a time. These reviews are just that - reviews. They're warnings to other and/or future players left by people who have played in the past.
In example, I left a garbage review of a hatchet I got a few weeks ago. It rusted, it's shit, and the weight of it sucks. I need good stuff to go camping, because my time is, generally, pretty valuable. Am I blackballing that company? Am I, and the other people who left negative reviews, blackballing the company? Is my review utterly worthless because I called the designer a man who's never been into the brush? Should I be punished by Amazon because I hurt the feelings of those who designed and built it?
For what it's worth, no one's blackballing you. By the very definition of it, which is here :
"reject(ing) (someone, usually a candidate applying to become a member of a private club), typically by means of a secret ballot.
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackballing)
Like I said in my post - like multiple people said in multiple posts and multiple reviews that you evidently just haven't read - most of these reviews are overwhelmingly positive. They're generally really shining for the MUD, and generally paint an overall incredibly positive picture of it. Then, as a footnote, they say that the staff are generally horrible. They just don't take a shine to YOU. No one's going around with a club or a pitchfork and forcing people not to play. No one's forming a secret little group and trying to take down TI one review at a time. These reviews are just that - reviews. They're warnings to other and/or future players left by people who have played in the past.
In example, I left a garbage review of a hatchet I got a few weeks ago. It rusted, it's shit, and the weight of it sucks. I need good stuff to go camping, because my time is, generally, pretty valuable. Am I blackballing that company? Am I, and the other people who left negative reviews, blackballing the company? Is my review utterly worthless because I called the designer a man who's never been into the brush? Should I be punished by Amazon because I hurt the feelings of those who designed and built it?
Rothgar Astartes, Fyurii Rynnya, Nils 'Smith' Mattias, Edward Darson, Curos Arents.
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