I want to open this thread to discuss something that's been bugging me for a while: is it useful actually having a formalised Physicians Guild? These are the current issues with 'yes' as I see it:
1. We've recently lost a good deal of members to death, inactivity, or GL responsibilities, and have lacked a solid set of core physicians for a while.
2. The majority of our seekers want to act as liaisons to/representatives for other guilds (perhaps to get their medicine/herbalism skills beyond 36), or make it clear that their membership in the Physicians is secondary to other concerns.
3. There's a tradition of people outside the guild claiming to be doctors with a considerable amount of experience. This not only means that they're 'on hand' to treat people, and don't summon registered guild members (our guild members can lose guild-related RP because of this), but that they don't operate within any sort of formalised system, which means that the guild promotions and requirements instantly lose value as a result.
Given all this, it's my opinion that it might be better to disband the guild and go back to the old model (dedicated physicians joining other guilds like the Knights/Reeves Lithmorran, Merchants, and Court). As it stands, we seem to have very little actual purpose, and our active guild numbers don't really support us being able to do much in-game (we currently only have four active members, two of which are barely active).
What does everyone think? Is it worth having a Physicians' Guild "just to have it"? Would it be better to disband it and bleed out our physicians into guilds in which their primary interest lies? I'd be very interested in hearing your opinions!
Shaylei
The future of the Physicians
I believe that the Physicians guild could be disbanded without negatively affecting the game. I think that, like scholars and mercenaries, the profession will always be a valid and interesting one that draws players in - and not in the least because it has nice, coded skills to back up IC claims - but it relies too much on other players/characters being willing to pay for RP.
Furthermore, many characters who get injured or sick either have enough of the skill to handle their own patching up, or they're in guilds with dedicated healers who can do it for them for free or cheap. Like Shaylei mentions, I've seen characters* joining up with the intention of increasing their skills past the 36 block and/or to benefit their primary guilds while contributing a bare minimum to the Physicians.
Interest in anything waxes and wanes and every guild's membership/activity fluctuates but with a guild like this one, it's harder to recover from the loss of active characters because the services they provide are so readily available elsewhere. Also (and speaking for myself here), it can be discouraging to sit alone with whererp on, waiting for patients only for there to be none, or to find out that they went to Bob the Barber, or that THEY waited alone in the hospital with whererp on waiting for YOU while you weren't able to be online.
I like that the guild creates an authoritative body as far as all things medical are concerned but I think this is something that could be handled just as easily by the Court (or Merchants, maybe?) simply appointing a single person to set policies. In this way, those who want to play medical personnel are still expected to abide by specific rules and there's a recognized authority, but there's also more freedom to pursue other avenues of RP - which is more useful to the majority of the pbase who already approach medicine and/or herbalism as a supplemental skill set.
The alternative to disbanding the guild would be to be more strict about who is allowed to practice medicine in Lithmore and I don't see that creating fun conflict. It also wouldn't solve the issue of people joining up to get the training to use in other guilds.
I do think it would be better at this point to let physicians serve directly in other guilds or work 'freelance' with the permission of an appointed official.
*I include my own character here!
Furthermore, many characters who get injured or sick either have enough of the skill to handle their own patching up, or they're in guilds with dedicated healers who can do it for them for free or cheap. Like Shaylei mentions, I've seen characters* joining up with the intention of increasing their skills past the 36 block and/or to benefit their primary guilds while contributing a bare minimum to the Physicians.
Interest in anything waxes and wanes and every guild's membership/activity fluctuates but with a guild like this one, it's harder to recover from the loss of active characters because the services they provide are so readily available elsewhere. Also (and speaking for myself here), it can be discouraging to sit alone with whererp on, waiting for patients only for there to be none, or to find out that they went to Bob the Barber, or that THEY waited alone in the hospital with whererp on waiting for YOU while you weren't able to be online.
I like that the guild creates an authoritative body as far as all things medical are concerned but I think this is something that could be handled just as easily by the Court (or Merchants, maybe?) simply appointing a single person to set policies. In this way, those who want to play medical personnel are still expected to abide by specific rules and there's a recognized authority, but there's also more freedom to pursue other avenues of RP - which is more useful to the majority of the pbase who already approach medicine and/or herbalism as a supplemental skill set.
The alternative to disbanding the guild would be to be more strict about who is allowed to practice medicine in Lithmore and I don't see that creating fun conflict. It also wouldn't solve the issue of people joining up to get the training to use in other guilds.
I do think it would be better at this point to let physicians serve directly in other guilds or work 'freelance' with the permission of an appointed official.
*I include my own character here!
Thanks for your feedback, Inertia. I agree with you on most counts; skill in medicine is very widespread, and often people will just treat themselves with <36 skill, rather than seeking out a physician and paying for the work. This not only means that the guild misses out on valuable RP/diminishes in actual importance, but also that being a dedicated physician simply isn't a lucrative trade; one must supplement with other pursuits if they're against purchasing silver with QP.
I'm not sure, however, that the current situation is actually creating any "fun IC conflict", however. Most of this stuff is happening behind the scenes, and there are no real punishments that one can enforce for someone healing themselves (or others) in their lounge room. The Merchants, for example, can close down businesses. I'd be interested to hear more on this point, though!
I'm not sure, however, that the current situation is actually creating any "fun IC conflict", however. Most of this stuff is happening behind the scenes, and there are no real punishments that one can enforce for someone healing themselves (or others) in their lounge room. The Merchants, for example, can close down businesses. I'd be interested to hear more on this point, though!
Perhaps you could go the legal route, either making it illegal to practice without being a member or having a license (which the guild can sell).
I think to make the guild more viable (if that is the route that is chosen), there would probably need to be some benefits to treatment from a guilded physician and/or added benefit for getting treated at the hospital.
Alternately, if that route is chosen, I'm sure that the merchants would happily welcome physicians and herbalists (who we've hosted previously). With the benefit of blacklisting, one could more easily shut down the non-guilded as needed. Perhaps the guild could alternately be adopted as a sister guild, with seperate operation but allied/integrated administration (similar to the order/knights).
As a merchant GL, I'm happy to work out a solution that suits the physicians best, if they do opt to disband.
I think to make the guild more viable (if that is the route that is chosen), there would probably need to be some benefits to treatment from a guilded physician and/or added benefit for getting treated at the hospital.
Alternately, if that route is chosen, I'm sure that the merchants would happily welcome physicians and herbalists (who we've hosted previously). With the benefit of blacklisting, one could more easily shut down the non-guilded as needed. Perhaps the guild could alternately be adopted as a sister guild, with seperate operation but allied/integrated administration (similar to the order/knights).
As a merchant GL, I'm happy to work out a solution that suits the physicians best, if they do opt to disband.
How would that work for people who want to work with the Knights or the Reeves, Hera? Would there be a purchasable permit, in that case (at a reasonable amount), for physicians who don't want to join the guild (or can't because of GL responsibilities)? I'd be on board with that, or would perhaps alternatively suggest the Physicians to become a sister guild to Knights/Reeves, or maybe Court?
I'd say a purchasable permit sold by either a shop (with money flowing back to the guild) or directly by [insert appropriate guild member]. If possible, if the item could be set to deteriorate after a year IC that would be grand, otherwise they could have a written expiry date on them.
They'd need to be enforcable, either by enacting a new law (something for the upcoming royal council?) or as a bit of staff handwavium in order to reach the new equilibrium.
I could certainly see the Reeves, Physicians and Court being aligned as sister guilds, as they share some commonality: secular, state sponsored to varying degrees and relating to either governance or care for the population.
They'd need to be enforcable, either by enacting a new law (something for the upcoming royal council?) or as a bit of staff handwavium in order to reach the new equilibrium.
I could certainly see the Reeves, Physicians and Court being aligned as sister guilds, as they share some commonality: secular, state sponsored to varying degrees and relating to either governance or care for the population.
Sorry this wasn't more clear! I said:Cellan wrote:I'm not sure, however, that the current situation is actually creating any "fun IC conflict", however.
To put it another way, if the guild is NOT disbanded, the only way that comes to mind for them to become/remain viable as a standalone entity is to aggressively pursue people who practice medicine outside the physicians guild, e.g. how merchants will blacklist and/or call for Reeve enforcement against non-permited crafters outside the guild ("You don't have permission to do that so I'm going to cut you off from your money," essentially). As Herazade is suggesting, perhaps it would be enough to bring people in line IC.Inertia wrote:"The alternative to disbanding the guild would be to be more strict about who is allowed to practice medicine in Lithmore and I don't see that creating fun conflict."
If freelance physicians were all rounded up into the guild and some sort of rules were in place that liaisons to other guilds had to be physicians first or something, I think there would still be obstacles that are difficult to overcome, including:
- most injuries are minor and most characters can patch themselves or know someone who will do it for them for free or cheap
- the demand for code-healing probably lags behind the potential supply of doctors, even if they ARE all in the guild
- even with highly visible medical iconography, if you're not in the hospital with whererp on and you're not already friends with a potential patient, it can be difficult for players to find who they need and easy for doctor types to feel discouraged if they're spending a lot of time alone, waiting
At this time I would still vote for disbanding the physicians as a formal standalone guild and - in case this was also not made clear in my first post - if it's ultimately decided that the guild should remain, I will still be here attempting to brainstorm more ways to make membership less potentially frustrating.
Everyone has likely heard me say at some point that I think the Physicians shouldn't be a guild, really, so it's no surprise where I stand given my history of complaining on the topic.
I mostly am weighing in to say let's NOT give them to the merchants. The merchants are already given a huge range of different guildskills and options, and I think it would be a bit topheavy to also give them medicine and herbalism. I much prefer the model of no official guild at all for Physicians, but Physicians in every guild and also freelance at the Hospital. It would be easy enough to put a board up at the hospital where doctors who could be seen could post their names, and put the morgue under Reeve control instead.
I mostly am weighing in to say let's NOT give them to the merchants. The merchants are already given a huge range of different guildskills and options, and I think it would be a bit topheavy to also give them medicine and herbalism. I much prefer the model of no official guild at all for Physicians, but Physicians in every guild and also freelance at the Hospital. It would be easy enough to put a board up at the hospital where doctors who could be seen could post their names, and put the morgue under Reeve control instead.
I wonder if it's perhaps time to consider a revamp of at the very least how medicine works? Admittedly I was never a fan of, say, herbalism being a guildskill specific to physicians, considering (and Hera can correct me on this) that does some tying into chandlery as well, but that's another rant for another thread at another time.
I see medicine on TI as a sort of treatment ladder similar to medicine in real life. There are things John Q. Passerby can fix on his own - scrapes, some infections, that kind of thing. But the major major junk, requiring actual effort, should probably put you in the hospital for at least as long as it takes them to thread you back together. Perhaps it's time to look at an option wherein the more major the damage, the more involved the treatment, the more skilled the doctor required? With potentially requiring - again, depending on the treatment needed, use of specific items that can optionally only be available at the hospital. Actually give people a reason to go there, aside from the physicians guild could do with some RP (which I agree with, just for the record).
right now, say someone's involved in a brawl or something, they wind up sporting a flesh wound the comparative size of Vandago. From a purely RP perspective, the natural response is if you're with someone, they drag your sorry butt to the hospital, throw you in a bed, scream for a doctor. Right now (and again, Cellan can and probably will correct me on this), nothing codely stops a physician from grabbing a surgical kit, wandering over to where the fight happened, patching up the unfortunate sucker, la dee da everybody's happy until the next time some poor fool bleeds. So a person could stick with the guild long enough to grandmaster medicine and optionally herbalism, leave the guild, set up their own mobile medical service and be just as qualified/capable and have just the same kind of resources as a current member of the guild. IMHO, if you want the guild to mean something besides free training in skills, it kind of needs to - well, you know, mean something.
I'll use the Merchants Guild as an example, because people keep referring back to that. Aside from the fact it's an awesome springboard, what with pretty much everything most of the crafts need right there for those characters who can't afford their own, but there are certain benefits to actually being in the guild (discounts on retooling items is a big one). That among other things is why that guild's actually overrun in some areas now.
Anyway, just tossing this over here based on what I'm seeing both in RP and from thumbing through the thread while I have 5 minutes. This may end up being a long-term sort of project folks are going to have to sit down and hammer out for specifics pretty much no matter which way it goes, I'm fairly sure.
I see medicine on TI as a sort of treatment ladder similar to medicine in real life. There are things John Q. Passerby can fix on his own - scrapes, some infections, that kind of thing. But the major major junk, requiring actual effort, should probably put you in the hospital for at least as long as it takes them to thread you back together. Perhaps it's time to look at an option wherein the more major the damage, the more involved the treatment, the more skilled the doctor required? With potentially requiring - again, depending on the treatment needed, use of specific items that can optionally only be available at the hospital. Actually give people a reason to go there, aside from the physicians guild could do with some RP (which I agree with, just for the record).
right now, say someone's involved in a brawl or something, they wind up sporting a flesh wound the comparative size of Vandago. From a purely RP perspective, the natural response is if you're with someone, they drag your sorry butt to the hospital, throw you in a bed, scream for a doctor. Right now (and again, Cellan can and probably will correct me on this), nothing codely stops a physician from grabbing a surgical kit, wandering over to where the fight happened, patching up the unfortunate sucker, la dee da everybody's happy until the next time some poor fool bleeds. So a person could stick with the guild long enough to grandmaster medicine and optionally herbalism, leave the guild, set up their own mobile medical service and be just as qualified/capable and have just the same kind of resources as a current member of the guild. IMHO, if you want the guild to mean something besides free training in skills, it kind of needs to - well, you know, mean something.
I'll use the Merchants Guild as an example, because people keep referring back to that. Aside from the fact it's an awesome springboard, what with pretty much everything most of the crafts need right there for those characters who can't afford their own, but there are certain benefits to actually being in the guild (discounts on retooling items is a big one). That among other things is why that guild's actually overrun in some areas now.
Anyway, just tossing this over here based on what I'm seeing both in RP and from thumbing through the thread while I have 5 minutes. This may end up being a long-term sort of project folks are going to have to sit down and hammer out for specifics pretty much no matter which way it goes, I'm fairly sure.
I don't think making medicine harder is the answer (though admittedly I would welcome a revamp to the system, which I think has several issues in regards to difficulty curves).
Ultimately, the real problem with the Physicians is they're just not enough to hang a guild on. There isn't enough medical RP to be had to support an entire guild, and while it's not as if it's impossible to make some, it doesn't really provide enough compelling, fun sort of play on a day-to-day business to support a guild, in my view.
Also, the existence of a guild makes people think it's a role that needs more people in it, so it entices people to create more and more doctor chars that find no space for them in RP and often get tired of it and disappear.
Fewer guilds means more players in each guild, and that level of concentration is great for helping players network and ensure that guilds stay functional as folks go idle and disappear.
Ultimately, the real problem with the Physicians is they're just not enough to hang a guild on. There isn't enough medical RP to be had to support an entire guild, and while it's not as if it's impossible to make some, it doesn't really provide enough compelling, fun sort of play on a day-to-day business to support a guild, in my view.
Also, the existence of a guild makes people think it's a role that needs more people in it, so it entices people to create more and more doctor chars that find no space for them in RP and often get tired of it and disappear.
Fewer guilds means more players in each guild, and that level of concentration is great for helping players network and ensure that guilds stay functional as folks go idle and disappear.
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