From OOC Discussion : Opening Up Southside.

[The_Last_Good_Dragon]

(Reported for unnecessary hostility, subsequently edited out by Staff)

However, I'm not entirely sure where I'm at on the ideas. I don't think that just making Southside mobs auto-steal from gentry members would solve much of anything for people wanting to go down there, and I think stealing items should be a PC only thing. Stealing money, maybe, but again that generally edges towards a place where I think PC Thieves should be empowered.

I do agree, however, that Orderites of all ranks should be allowed to go into Southside without much problem. Thematically there cannot be comments in the helpfile like "mages are not tolerated" yet Knights and Inquisitors barred access to pursue their holy goals at the risk of death. I would even think this extends to the Grand Inquisitor and the Earl Marshall — perhaps them most of all! A 'proper davite' would respect the opinions of these two well above any priest or squire!

[Helena]

I'd be happy to see southside become more lively. Not only because I also think it's a great place to RP, but also because northside's RP would benefit from it too.

> Absolutely agree with you on the splitting of the game! While there are some things in there that I don't personally agree with - like the mention of guildhalls and phomes - I do think that it's a really potent thing to consider.

I also feel that a discussion on the size of the game relative to the size of the playerbase is something we should consider having.

[Taunya]

However, I'm not entirely sure where I'm at on the ideas. I don't think that just making Southside mobs auto-steal from gentry members would solve much of anything for people wanting to go down there, and I think stealing items should be a PC only thing. Stealing money, maybe, but again that generally edges towards a place where I think PC Thieves should be empowered.

The mobs down there already do both, if you get caught and ask for 'mercy'. Silver first, and items if there's not enough silver on you. This suggestion would simply be removing the risk of injury and death for gentry. The problem with doing money only is that people can simply put all their money in the bank or in a container before entering. This isn't really so different from freemen having to pay bribes to enter many places Northside, except Southsiders take, they don't ask. Perhaps it could be scripted to only be stolen from once a day or something of the sort, though.

I do agree, however, that Orderites of all ranks should be allowed to go into Southside without much problem. Thematically there cannot be comments in the helpfile like "mages are not tolerated" yet Knights and Inquisitors barred access to pursue their holy goals at the risk of death. I would even think this extends to the Grand Inquisitor and the Earl Marshall — perhaps them most of all! A 'proper davite' would respect the opinions of these two well above any priest or squire!

I'd like to see the hatred of Knights be addressed ICly before this happens though, as there's IC reasons for it.
A freeman inquisitor would be welcome in Southside, we just haven't had any freemen inquisitors in a while.

[Voxumo]

I'd like to see the hatred of Knights be addressed ICly before this happens though, as there's IC reasons for it.
A freeman inquisitor would be welcome in Southside, we just haven't had any freemen inquisitors in a while.

I've thought about the Knight's being barred from southside thing alot today, and I think it actually makes more sense than I thought it did originally. My understanding, and how I've had it told to me icly, is that the Knights, while acting under the Inquisition, also act as "Generals" or other similar military figures, and or Elite Units in Lithmore's Army. Now this makes a bit more sense why they would be barred access, as Southside is known for its rebellious nature against the Crown. The Knights and Order were also separate guilds, and treated very much so as separate entities at the time this barring went into place.

As for the argument of Pages and Squires being allowed, I think it's kind of silly to exclude it just to a single rank. Wouldn't let Cadets from the reeves enter southside even though they aren't full-fledged reeves yet.

[Starstarfish]

Now this makes a bit more sense why they would be barred access, as Southside is known for its rebellious nature against the Crown. The Knights and Order were also separate guilds, and treated very much so as separate entities at the time this barring went into place.

I'd argue there is a difference between rebelling against "the Law" and rebelling against "the Crown" - and I'd argue that at times that concept of unlawfulness manifesting itself as the tremors of a Communist Revolution is moving things a fair bit theme wise. The Brotherhood is not as helpfiles have it presented meant to create a safe haven for mages. They are indeed, meant to be 'bound in their Davite' faith. Functionally, Knights being unable to access Southside because 'someone likely no one still playing remembers doing a bad thing' has meant that the Brotherhood and the Southside becomes the place to go hide if you are a mage.

And what that lead to, in my experience myself as a Priestess, and for several other Priests I sent there to preach/help the needy, etc, is that mages can openly threaten violence on Priests without recourse. I feel like 'then get a retainer' is a cop out, myself as it provides the same function - protection, while purposefully stealing RP

I just don't think such will have the desired effect, and will instead lessen the "Intrigue" of the southside.

In fairness, the "intrigue" of the Southside or really any hidden part of the map is lost to the player after the first time it is found. There is never the same 'thrill' in discovering something you already knew about the second time. What this does functionally do, however, is create the situation where the people who have the money to buy the very things the Brotherhood has to offer cannot access those services. And the bounty board while a good and amazing resource, is not indeed a substitute for roleplay. It comes with functionally no risk and there's little if ever any followup RP about it.

If we have people, including people newer to the game mentioning they are having difficulty finding RP - if we actually want to grow/regrow as a community, I'd say we might need to consider how we work on our appeal. And I'd say over time reading the forums, I get the sense that we like the idea of expanding and adding new people to community, but only if it doesn't cost older players their "special something" that they "earned." We want to grow our newbie population, we might need to consider not setting the barriers so high.

[Starstarfish]

"My character is so angry, better go south and rampage a bit*

Also, to my understanding there were way more characters who did this than just Knights. Mages overall as a group tend to rampage and kill statistically and they aren't banned from say … the Hospital where historically they've caused insane levels of trouble.

[wimple]

RP in the Southside tends to be like RP anywhere else - it really depends on characters and character actions. If people are, say, running one of the businesses down there and promoting events, it is hopping. If they aren't? Less so, unless you're involved in activities down that way that aren't General Board events. On the flip side, a few weeks ago, I would sit in Blind Horse for a while after a similar sort of complaint and there was typically RP in there - people would swing by when they saw it. The past few weeks, though, I've been too busy to play regularly and while I may have logged in to check my messages and seen someone down there, haven't had time to drop by. That was the start of the summer vs. August when life can pick up for people on school schedules, which may impact this sort of thing. The last big events that way - speech by Tennie and the play - were towards the early end of summer.

I think most of those blocks against different class/guild types aren't really the impediment to RP. When I ran Blind Horse or Stardust we still got nobles and gentry down there. I've had characters both arrested by Knights/Reeves down there and take part in raids by those organizations. Those blocks have led to lower level characters getting RP - I've had characters hired to handle issues down there, seen players be hired to go down to events as spies, etc.

I think rather than mechanically changing that part of the grid, perhaps making Southside characters as a need (sort of like on the app board, but maybe not requiring an app - or perhaps on the app list with a QP or other incentive bonus if they hit so many RP hours) would be more effective. That gets people thinking about those characters and running them. As a general idea, a space on the forums or the boards where players could spitball ideas for events that could be run in different areas might be beneficial as well. These aren't necessarily things that would require a ST to be run, a whole bunch of supplies (although you can get staff support for game-wide events if you need them), or necessarily even things that people would need to be associated as running a specific location, but gives people ideas and options for attracting RP to a place beyond just sitting in it on WhereRP and waiting. Frankly, I'd think that'd be useful all around, as this seems to be a pretty frequent sort of complaint by players. I think think creating scenarios vs. waiting for scenarios is a skill that players sometimes don't know how to bridge and the game's current culture can sometimes* be against.

Just to be clear, that last point is a deviation from this topic, and I apologize. It isn't meant as a criticism of anyone sitting in Blind Horse - it's good data to know that people aren't biting on public RP down there. It's more just thoughts and remarks after reading the OOC meeting and having seen some new player frustration over not knowing how to get into RP streams effectively.

*- YMMV on that. I see a lot of people making events and doing things. However, I have personally experienced it. I got lots of OOC opinions that I was wasting my time when I went to open Savage Training, which hasn't been the case.

[Starstarfish]

When I ran Blind Horse or Stardust we still got nobles and gentry down there.

Were the 'border guards' coded then like they are now, just as a curiosity? If so, how did people generally deal with that?

[Taunya]

There are costumes you can buy, or make with a level 0 tailoring recipe.

[Starstarfish]

There are costumes you can buy, or make with a level 0 tailoring recipe.

How do those actually work?