Subforum for Weekly Meetings

[Inertia]

Crossing over from the discussion about guildskills, I wanted to suggest a new subforum for the weekly meetings. Here, a log of the meeting could be posted so those who can't make the time don't have to miss out.

I would further suggest that implementation of ideas that come up during the meeting could be delayed by a day or two. This would allow more discussion on the subject, both by those who were present and ran out of time to get their opinion heard, and by those who weren't present but have some good insight into the pros and cons of the new ideas.

[Leech]

I agree, and during the meetings that I actually make, I'll try to remember to turn my logger on.

[Kinaed]

Hmm. Trying to phrase this nicely, but my usual eloquence fails me. Or maybe my diplomacy. Anyway, I mean no disrespect or offense to anyone with my philosophy and views. This is just me saying something I believe in, generally, about the world and how it works.

The people who do not attend have chosen not to because they have other priorities. Those priorities are valid, because everyone has a right to make their own decisions. Period.

However, if our meeting isn't a priority for someone, we are not obligated to concentrate our time or energy providing them crutches to facilitate their ability to participate in absentia. If it is a priority for them, then they should show up.

Ideas have a momentum. When people are excited about them, they are easier to implement. Waiting around for the consensus of other people who already don't care enough to attend dulls the energy that drives those ideas to fruition. I won't waste that very precious excitement to cater to people who didn't come to a meeting they could, if they felt it was important enough, have attended. And it's almost disrespectful to the people who did attend to imply that they should wait for the lollygaggers.

It's completely valid for notes to come out of the OOC Chat such as "We made <xxxx> decision as a group." The OOC Chat is a joint player & staff information sharing and decision-making forum. That is the purpose of the forum. It is held at the same time every week and with equal access to every single person (active or inactive, newbie or ancient, whatever) who cares to attend. You can log in an alt if you're in RP. You can idle out without rancor. You can come late or leave early. Whatever. Thus, there's not much barring most people from attending.

Any expectation that we should be posting notes like: "About 25% of the mud came together and generated <xxxx> idea. Can everyone who didn't show up to the meeting, please finally take the time to give us their two cents so we can finally get cracking?" is not what this forum is about. That's inefficient and coddling people who, for the most part, just can't be bothered. Yes, there are some (very limited) people who are not in a position to attend, and that's unfortunate, but life isn't fair. I'm not capable of making it fair, nor do I choose to waste my energy on impossible tasks. There's a forum. Show up or shut up.

If someone wants to take notes, I'm cool with that. Just please don't expect those notes to be in the aim of getting consensus from everyone who didn't attend unless the actual decision by the group was to 'seek further consensus'.

Now, I know that was probably offensive to a lot of people, especially as this note follows a situation where the OOC Chat group made a decision that didn't sit well with others who were affected. I'm sorry for any offense I've caused by my opinion, I just hope that people can understand where I'm coming from and why.

Thanks for reading,
Kinky

[SlyViolin]

Hmm. Trying to phrase this nicely, but my usual eloquence fails me. Or maybe my diplomacy. Anyway, I mean no disrespect or offense to anyone with my philosophy and views. This is just me saying something I believe in, generally, about the world and how it works.

The people who do not attend have chosen not to because they have other priorities. Those priorities are valid, because everyone has a right to make their own decisions. Period.

However, if our meeting isn't a priority for someone, we are not obligated to concentrate our time or energy providing them crutches to facilitate their ability to participate in absentia. If it is a priority for them, then they should show up.

That's true, if someone is online they have the option to attend the discussion or not. But as it is right now, you're punishing people who want to be there, who want to help shaping the world but can't because some relative decided to turn up, they have to do something for work. Life should ALWAYS come before a game.

My personal example : I need to take medication every night to control my bipolar. It makes me sleep. I can either choose between not attending the meetings and sanity. Or not taking my meds, being awake all night, attending and being able to contribute to the game but at the time risking a high chance a suicidal thoughts and depression.

If major decision was given a 3 day input I could still give constructive critisms without risking mental health.

Ideas have a momentum. When people are excited about them, they are easier to implement. Waiting around for the consensus of other people who already don't care enough to attend dulls the energy that drives those ideas to fruition. I won't waste that very precious excitement to cater to people who didn't come to a meeting they could, if they felt it was important enough, have attended. And it's almost disrespectful to the people who did attend to imply that they should wait for the lollygaggers.

The truly good ideas keep the momentum. A good idea will be just as good and exciting in 3 days time as well as a little better thought out. A bad idea will be exciting and then the bugbears will be found, though it'll be found out as the idea is already implemented. I'm not saying that the good ideas will miraculously be bugfree, but some of them would already be sorted out before being implemented. You would also have a lot less people complaining because they've had time to go away, think about the idea and be able to come back to it with clear and concise issues instead of being rushed to think about it in the space of an hour.

It's completely valid for notes to come out of the OOC Chat such as "We made <xxxx> decision as a group." The OOC Chat is a joint player & staff information sharing and decision-making forum. That is the purpose of the forum. It is held at the same time every week and with equal access to every single person (active or inactive, newbie or ancient, whatever) who cares to attend. You can log in an alt if you're in RP. You can idle out without rancor. You can come late or leave early. Whatever. Thus, there's not much barring most people from attending.

There's nothing I can fault here, other than saying it relies on the person being logged in AT THAT SPECIFIC TIME. Life should come first and we all have surprises happen. We aren't all on at the time said discussion. A three day leeway would give people on all time to contribute if they want.

Any expectation that we should be posting notes like: "About 25% of the mud came together and generated <xxxx> idea. Can everyone who didn't show up to the meeting, please finally take the time to give us their two cents so we can finally get cracking?" is not what this forum is about. That's inefficient and coddling people who, for the most part, just can't be bothered. Yes, there are some (very limited) people who are not in a position to attend, and that's unfortunate, but life isn't fair. I'm not capable of making it fair, nor do I choose to waste my energy on impossible tasks. There's a forum. Show up or shut up.

If someone wants to take notes, I'm cool with that. Just please don't expect those notes to be in the aim of getting consensus from everyone who didn't attend unless the actual decision by the group was to 'seek further consensus'.

It's not that we want to be included and feel like special snowflakes. It's we don't want to be told that WE a community suggested and decided this together and noone objected so we implemented it. SURPRISE TO ANYONE NOT ONLINE IN THAT HOUR YOU'VE BEEN LUMPED INTO THE 15 PEOPLE WHO WERE ONLINE AND DIDN'T HAVE THE SAME CONCERNS YOU HAVE.

Of course people are going to raise concerns about certain issues that affect them. As a team of staffers, you'll get a lot less rage and anger directed towards you guys when people do have the chance to step away, think about it, come back. Right now all criticism you'll be getting is purely reactionary to changes already implemented, and instaneous reactions are usually aggressive and abusive.

While small changes won't be a problem to implement instaneously. Huge ones that affect all of the player base should allow all of the player base to criticise. Right now we are who can't be there at that one chosen hour out of one-hundred and sixty eight possible hours, your input isn't as valued as those who could be.

Three days. It's not that long. Everyone who can log in those will have equal opportunity in those 72 hours can have their say.

Inertia and Leech request forum updates. Personally I think it will reach a bigger audience if weekly minutes of the meetings are pasted in the ingame boards. Just a summary of what was discussed, things implemented, this rejected, things you're looking input for.
Right now people who can't attend only know what was approved because it's suddenly a fact of life now.

My 55 cents.

[Kinaed]

Like I said, I don't mind if someone takes the time to make notes about the chat and posts them. I don't personally want the responsibility and don't feel capable of committing to it because it's often exhausting to run the meeting and I'm very, very time poor at the moment.

There's a lot of other commentary in Sly's post that I feel needs to be addressed, however. I can't say I'm right, because I think things like how people should act are very subjective. Rather, I want people to understand my point of view because, arguably, my philosophy on how to handle the process of developing TI is what people have to deal with.

What I'm making clear is that the OOC Chat is a place where decisions happen because it's a place where decisions are intended to. People are welcome to come, not come, or whatever. Yes, the meeting requires you to be logged in, but everyone knows for weeks in advance the scheduled time. And yes, shit happens to prevent attendance, but if you miss a meeting at work, do you expect your company to shut down and wait for you before continuing with its operations?

We don't wait six OOC months for GLs who go inactive to come back again, even if they explain about how they've been in the hospital while their guild withered away to nothing. We're not insensitive to the fact that they were in the hospital, nor did we wish them ill. We're very sorry to hear that life has been tough and not particularly fair. We're happy when they come back, and we don't blame them for being gone. We respect their rights to have a life. But. During that six months meantime, there's a guild out there that needs a GL to manage that guild. I have a duty of care to TI. I do not have a duty of care to someone's broken leg; there's the hospital for that. Similarly, the staff progress TI, and we won't stop for passive, inactive, or non-participatory people.

I'm sorry, this may sound mean, but life's not fair. The boss won't halt the company waiting for you to show up at work despite the car accident, and neither will I wait for people who have other priorities before getting on with TI's. No one wants anyone to have a car accident, and no one is unsympathetic to someone who had one - but expecting the world to stop for that... well, that's unrealistic. Issues outside of TI are what people must work around in their lives in general. I cannot be responsible for then. Even if I could, I wouldn't. It's not healthy for me to take on that level of responsibility for other people. My ability to affect your world starts and ends with your login. I might be sympathetic and even helpful, but when I choose to be and to what degree is a serious case-by-case, and not something anyone is entitled to by any means.

That's not about my being a jerk, though I know it might come off that way, it's about being functional - you and me both, in our own ways, in our own spaces, together. If someone has one of these outside-TI issues, it is most definitely their responsibility to be proactive about managing the impacts it has to their life and hobbies. I'm not saying I don't care or am not interested in helping, but I am saying I'm not going to sacrifice TI for it, nor do I think anyone should expect me to.

For the people who don't like that stance, I'm sorry - we'll just have to agree to disagree on the point.

As to the particular issue that got everyone's bee in a bonnet? It was on the forums for almost a week before the OOC Chat started. Giving people 3 days wouldn't have done squat. Anyone who didn't come to the chat could easily have had their say on the forums. People didn't. Also, the staff actually didn't bring the forum post up, the players did. So, in short - the problem on the whole was about people being blaise, then getting up on high horses and acting like something heinous was done to them when, in fact, despite all indicators that this topic was floating around and an open invitation to be a part of that week's discussion, people were just too passive to act in their own best interests. It's like blaming someone for drowning when you refused to stand up in the knee-deep water. The Lord helps those who help themselves and all that jazz.

If we insist on giving people 3 days or whatever time for everyone to review, it would dilute and diffuse the intent and strength of the OOC Chat. It's too valuable to castrate like that on behalf of people who chose not to look out for themselves. We've been holding this chat for so long, in fact, it's clear that the risk of something unpopular happening is particularly minor. Also, frankly, everyone that was in that room either agreed or failed to participate to say they didn't, meaning most likely there's a lot of people out there who like the changes and a few squeaky wheels torturing everyone else over it. Not all changes are liked by everyone. There will often be a level of discontent with any major structural game change. It's like if I like it way A, you like it way B. Well, if those are our options, one of us is gonna be pissy. Storm in a teacup. Not worth restructuring TI's design process over.

It's not that I don't care about the opinions of those who don't attend the OOC Chats or am trying to shut you guys up, nor do I have an issue with you constructively expressing your opinions about things that go in. What it comes down to is that those who didn't come to the meeting, regardless of reason, don't have a right to criticize and lash out at everyone else. Have a differing opinion and want to share it? Sure. Be a bastard smearing bile all over the OOC Channels, in IMs and tells, talking trash, trying to shame people who participated or agree with the change? Rage and anger? No way. Absolutely not. Grow up. That's not how people treat one another in civilized society. Period.

(Mind, I've only experienced said rage and anger from one person, but then again, he's the only person beyond Takta that actually addressed me to talk about the issue. And Takta is the one who secured the XP bonus and skill adjustments to ease the pain. Those who are unhappy with what she negotiated on your behalf may want to come and negotiate with me themselves, right? Just be kind, as I'd be kind to you. None of the bile and accusation please.)

I do think that people have a right to an opinion, most especially when things impact them. That's not in question at all. There's a constructive way to approach staff to resolve issues and see if we can work out problems that are realized... but people poisoning the community because they feel disenfranchised (especially when they weren't) have a fundamental different worldview to me. In my eyes, no one was a victim here. I held a meeting with a bunch of players, we worked something out, we moved ahead - in a manner players familiar with the process could predict and even elect to participate in. It's like people who don't bother voting complaining about the government. Sometimes you have to take responsibility for what you didn't do, not just what you did.

I know, I write novels. Sorry about that.

Also, once again, please allow me reiterate that this is a statement of philosophy. It is not intended to single anyone out or point fingers, but rather help people understand what exactly they can expect from me. A philosophy isn't fundamentally right or wrong, but rather something either you identify with or you don't. It's okay to say you think my stance is kaka, but it is my stance, and hopefully I've explained why enough that people can respect it, even if they don't necessarily agree.

[Leech]

It was on the forums for almost a week before the OOC Chat started. Giving people 3 days wouldn't have done squat.

The topic that was on the forums was actually about learn master slots. Guild skills didn't come up until after the OOC chat - unless I completely missed it.

As for the other things, I can't say I care much, although I would like to point out the amount of work that it puts on Az when they have to go back in and change a system because of a backlash by the players - work that could be avoided if the things were talked about, and hashed out, more.

In my playing here, I figured the suggestion board was where staff got player insight when needed, and where ideas were posted, and the OOC chat was to maintain staff transparency.