Arrest improvement

[chronodbu]

You also have to realize that in a setting like this, if you resist arrest you're gonna earn something blunt to the noggin.

Guards aren't nice. They can't be because that's pretty much inviting disaster when someone can just as easily shank you. If you resist instead of coming peacefully, they can and do have the right to beat the crap out of you so they can drag your sorry butt back to a jail cell whether it's deserved or not.

[Dice]

I'm not arguing because I have some odd reluctance to beat the hell out of people - it's thematic, and I've done it plenty of times with people resisting arrest even for really minor crimes.

I object because it doesn't make sense to me, even given the nature of medieval manacles - if it's not happening, it's not happening. But I had to comment because it's a bit annoying to have the reasons for your objection mischaracterized!

[Applesauce]

People fight arrest all the time in the real world and they don't have to be knocked unconscious to get cuffs on them. They get shoved down, pinned, grappled, cuffs slammed on, etc. (I know because my parents just LOVE watching Cops...) I think it's exceedingly rare that people actually get beaten into submission to be arrested because there really are these less-damaging approaches used every day.

Typing "submit" already covers that case. You can refuse at first, and after an exchange of emotes/contests regarding grappling attempts, submit later in the scene if and when it makes IC sense.

You can contest skills without combat, and you can contest stats without combat. You can even contest random numbers if you want. And yes, if they still refuse you have to smack them down. Don't even tell me no one ever gets knocked unconscious or killed during an arrest attempt IRL.

However, it sounds like people are arguing instead about players avoiding the IC consequences of their actions, and just refusing to ever type "submit" regardless of the situation they're in. That's cheating, as already described in the thread, and imms typically whoosh the person to jail for you if they're OOCly avoiding arrest.

[Geras]

Typing "submit" already covers that case. You can refuse at first, and after an exchange of emotes/contests regarding grappling attempts, submit later in the scene if and when it makes IC sense.

Trouble is, the judgement call of at what point it is realistic to submit is going to vary from player to player.

I think it's preferable to resolve these difference through code rather than counting on everyone to be the best RPer ever.

[Kinaed]

A player judges what is right for their character to submit or pursue. They decide what is realistic for their characters.

A combat scene with a character who doesn't want to murder someone could involve the hilt of the blade in their emotes. If the victim of a hilt of the sword to the head thinks that'd make them submit, they should do it. If they think they won't and the hilt isn't enough, then they won't and it's up to the arrestor to try something more - the code will wind it down to a basic binary result: did person A win or person B.

Without AI, it is not possible for code to be nuanced enough to completely realistically determine those decisions, and if people genuinely do have varying ideas of realistic, then a system designed to provide contextual 'how did you get to the conclusion that person A won' will automatically leave people dissatisifed because, by definition, people have varied expectations.

I view this as the subtle issue that pvents had when we first designed them; a rewrite has made people much happier with pvents in general. The only difference was how much the game assumed control of character events.

I'm not prepared to go further into that with arrest code. Right now, it's very clear - someone attempts to arrest you; you submit and allow it to happen or you fight. You can change your mind to submit at any time, otherwise, they have to beat you in the combat for the arrest to succeed.

Simple, non-judgmental about how people do any of it. How is for everyone to bring to the table as role-play.

[Leech]

I think it's the people who don't submit until they have 'You are knocked out of combat and unconscious by the several big, probably bleeding bruises to your head from that guy's blade-hilt' that annoy most people. I know it's annoying for me, especially when ICly they are up against a big bulky Farin and are playing a short, miniature, lanky Tubori. It doesn't give that big, bulky Farin the tools to strut around their character they've probably worked hard on, and RP as being a big, bulky Farin - if that makes sense.

I personally don't want changes to the arrest code so much as I want a non-consensual way of grapple (wrestling) combat using strength, dex, and mv to pin somebody and get cuffs around them (or do other things to them). But that's just me, and I haven't kept up with most of this thread.

[Applesauce]

I personally don't want changes to the arrest code so much as I want a non-consensual way of grapple (wrestling) combat using strength, dex, and mv to pin somebody and get cuffs around them (or do other things to them). But that's just me, and I haven't kept up with most of this thread.

There is, with contest.

Player1:
> emote grapples Victim like a mofo!
> contest Victim str

Player2:
> emote shouts, "I'm being repressed!"
> contest Grappler

Game:
Grappler handily defeats Victim! (or whatever the code output is for contests)



Player1 has then successfully non-combat grappled someone and Player2 SHOULD probably submit. If they don't then they're twinky jerkbags. Or if they have a legit reason not to submit other than "because I'm standing here stoically" then they can express it in additional emotes and contests.

Contest doesn't involve mv in the calculations, but it should do enough to cover whatever RP either side might come up with. You can even counter with different statistics, so if Player1 wants to contest Str because he's a big bulky Farin, Player2 might return with "contest Grappler dex" to try to evade, or "contest Grappler cha" to talk his way out.

[Tremere]

Okay, I'm sure it's probably not been noted, but after the initial wave of this, I stopped posting because my intention of this suggestion wasn't to attack people, but to try and bring up an issue that I saw with the existing code. It has since turned into accusations of not being able to handle the consequences and things like that. Really disappointed in how that came up. The main argument I am hearing against it is not wanting to have too much code involvement. If we don't want code involvement, why even have this system in the first place?

We have the code system there. And right now the only two options are submit or beat the shit out of them. Yes there is manhandling that has to be done to put them on, but that should be done with some sort of coded grapple check rather than just beating the shit out of someone if possible. In cases where someone is passively resisting, it doesn't make sense to take out a hammer or a sword and just beating them down, not rply (unless you are the sort that would do). The only reason this suggestion was brought up was to bring some flexibility into an inflexible code system that we have. I find the very idea of saying we don't want more code involvement in something that is already a coded system a silly argument to make. I know that no coded system is perfect, I'm not saying this will be perfect either, but it will allow for more nuanced and different approaches and I think giving more options is better than restricting them. A sort of grapple system for this would be a -great- addition I think.

[Applesauce]

And right now the only two options are submit or beat the shit out of them. ... In cases where someone is passively resisting, it doesn't make sense to take out a hammer or a sword and just beating them down, not rply... The only reason this suggestion was brought up was to bring some flexibility into an inflexible code system that we have.

Those are not the only two options, has been my point. The "contest" and "roll" commands already exist, and were added specifically to cover these types of viable roleplay that combat and other systems didn't necessarily cover.

I'm not saying adding new grapple stuff is bad, only that it seems like another way of doing the same thing. "Grapple victim" or "contest victim str"? Either way, one person wins and the other person loses, and either way it's the codebase that determines the outcome and makes it Official.

Sorry if it seems like I'm participating in a perceived thread hijack, but I really think this does what you're after, and exists today. Pretty sure I don't know any other way to explain it though, so I can avoid further replies if it doesn't seem helpful.