So this is meant more to brain storm than as any sort of complaint.
What sort of outcome would make you willing to risk your character's life/wellbeing by using magic?
The reason I ask is because of a discussion I had with a player of a Knight, who mentioned that the Knights have very little real reason to actively pursue mages, mostly because the most common or regular mage actions (like shadows, breathbinder) are more annoying than dangerous, and those are the most common actions because they carry almost no risk to the mage.
So my question is, what sort of outcome would you want to be able to achieve to put your character in substantial risk? Death is an obvious one (ie murder), but it's also the most well supported by magic (and stealth) already, and the most boring one. Kidnapping is a bit more interesting, and a bit less well supported, though there are still a lot of tools.
What else would you want to be able to do, and willing to take a risk to do it? I think a lot of mages feel that its not in there rational self interest to do a lot. Doing something against your char's interests for the "lulz" just feels forced. What could change that? This applies to stealth as well, though stealing stuff of monetary value provides a bit more impetus for thieves to be active.
On the flip side, more ways to reduce that risk a bit would probably help, like magical disguises that aren't obvious in your inventory. You'd still have a risk of getting got while doing the act, but less before and after.
Anyways, thoughts? What would you want to be able to do?
Why use magic?
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Applesauce
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A lot of truly dangerous magic has been removed over the last 2 or 3 incarnations of TI, and maybe that's declawed mages a bit TOO much... As you say, there's not really a reason to be afraid of the average mage, other than mattack's range.
To answer the question, if I were a mage and wanted to do a thing, it would have to be big. Attack the GI, Cardinal, Queen, that sort of thing. The war against mages starts at the highest levels, so gotta take down a general to really make it worth the risk, IMO.
To answer the question, if I were a mage and wanted to do a thing, it would have to be big. Attack the GI, Cardinal, Queen, that sort of thing. The war against mages starts at the highest levels, so gotta take down a general to really make it worth the risk, IMO.
For me it's less about ability and more about the central question: why would I put my PC at risk to do these things? Villain RP is RP I don't enjoy and has the potential to lose me my character.
I think the only thing that would induce me toward using magic to make an outcome happen would be if it were seriously implied by my RP and magic were the only way to make it so. I see healing spells, for example, as a lot better way to do that than more offensive capability. If you can intervene to help save a life... suddenly it becomes a lot more tempting. So perhaps we need more situations where magic can do the wonderful and the wondrous, as well as the awful.
Now, that's because I tend to play PCs who, while certainly grey, are more heroes than villains. If I were to go outside my comfort zone and think about villains... it comes down to risk, yeah.
The tools that you can use with minor risk tend to not be sufficiently good/fun RP - breathbinder and all, as mentioned above. But with major risk? Usually, if you want to SUCCEED, you need to have put a ton of time, effort and XP into your character - and by that point you will be invested, and you won't want to lose them.
Mages have been balanced, and I think that's a good thing. But it also means you can't roll up a PC of sufficient strength to really challenge people without serious investment, and that side of it is not.
(This is why I would LOVE to see a disposable character mechanic, almost like a permanent villain quest, where at any time you could get a nicely powered-up villain under the agreement that if you don't do X thing you app'd the PC for by Y time, they get revoked.)
I think the only thing that would induce me toward using magic to make an outcome happen would be if it were seriously implied by my RP and magic were the only way to make it so. I see healing spells, for example, as a lot better way to do that than more offensive capability. If you can intervene to help save a life... suddenly it becomes a lot more tempting. So perhaps we need more situations where magic can do the wonderful and the wondrous, as well as the awful.
Now, that's because I tend to play PCs who, while certainly grey, are more heroes than villains. If I were to go outside my comfort zone and think about villains... it comes down to risk, yeah.
The tools that you can use with minor risk tend to not be sufficiently good/fun RP - breathbinder and all, as mentioned above. But with major risk? Usually, if you want to SUCCEED, you need to have put a ton of time, effort and XP into your character - and by that point you will be invested, and you won't want to lose them.
Mages have been balanced, and I think that's a good thing. But it also means you can't roll up a PC of sufficient strength to really challenge people without serious investment, and that side of it is not.
(This is why I would LOVE to see a disposable character mechanic, almost like a permanent villain quest, where at any time you could get a nicely powered-up villain under the agreement that if you don't do X thing you app'd the PC for by Y time, they get revoked.)
That's a great idea. And yah, what I'm trying to get at is ideas other than sheer offense. Offense is important of course too, but I feel things are more lacking on the "other" category.I see healing spells, for example, as a lot better way to do that than more offensive capability.
There are certain forms of information that I would be willing to take large risks for. Keeping tabs on someone's location, what they say and do, or being able to read their mail would all be pretty valuable. And a scarlet letter is something I've mentioned before at length.
On the cost side, one thing I think is a bit frustrating is that even if you pull off your plan successfully, there's a pretty good chance your identity will be found out by means of your voice or build or something like that. It'd be nice if successful plans had much less of a chance of getting you identified. :/
I've never had a reason not to use magic, honestly. I love it, it's incredibly useful, both if you don't reveal, and also if you choose to do so. With the right spell and a carefully worded messenger, you can basically kidnap anybody. You can do awesome stuff to people who are willing, to. Autumn subsisted off of me asking people if I could do X to them without Y (usually being my death) happening by their hand during the scene. I had the great privilege of most of them saying sure.
I don't like the idea of goody-two-shoes healing spells, but I'm very pro-mages-are-evil and we need more reinforcement of the fact. We get a lot of morally ambiguous, or outright heroic mages, and an incredible lack of people who really dig deep into demonology, void energy, and necromancy. Sure, we've had our share of people who summon the dead, but it's usually a straight up zombie-fest. I rarely (it's happened!) hear about people raising fully-thinking, resurrected loved ones (with QP and the spell, obviously). Or magey transmuting of people's arms into octopus arms.
I don't like the idea of goody-two-shoes healing spells, but I'm very pro-mages-are-evil and we need more reinforcement of the fact. We get a lot of morally ambiguous, or outright heroic mages, and an incredible lack of people who really dig deep into demonology, void energy, and necromancy. Sure, we've had our share of people who summon the dead, but it's usually a straight up zombie-fest. I rarely (it's happened!) hear about people raising fully-thinking, resurrected loved ones (with QP and the spell, obviously). Or magey transmuting of people's arms into octopus arms.
Player of: Alexander ab Courtland
Correct me if I'm wrong though, but wasn't Autumn kind of motivated for the "lulz"? Which is great, but naturally pretty rare. What I'm suggesting is more rational reasons to use magic to further some long term goal, whatever that goal may be.
I think evil's a matter of perspective a lot of the time. I agree with the sentiment though. I'd prefer to look at it as mages being scary. What I'd like to see is more brain storming of how to make them scarier (like the octopus arm you mentioned).I don't like the idea of goody-two-shoes healing spells, but I'm very pro-mages-are-evil and we need more reinforcement of the fact.
One way to make healing more interesting would be to borrow a page from contemporary vampire lore: healing involves consuming the blood of the healer, and results in a permanent bond between the healed and the healer... perhaps with some disturbing implications for said bond. Makes the spell less goody-two-shoes.
I'm a big fan of ambiguity, and I think magic should cut both ways. There are almost certainly unabashedly evil spells (Fire of Life, anybody?) but there's no such thing as a good spell that can't be used for evil ends. So I think we can't run the risk of making magic TOO obviously and undeniably evil; I think that's as bad as making it too good.
I think making magic worth using is more important than making it scarier, atm; as Geras points out, most mages aren't Autumns with an explicit goal of causing trouble and a lot of 'free' power given to them by a villain quest. This is in no way a slight against Autumn, who I THOROUGHLY enjoyed, but I think we have to make magic appealing to the -average- mage... who is likely not an explicitly evil PC, but somebody trying to get along in normal life. You want to be scary as a mage, you've got the tools right now, though I am in favor of darker spells... I just think making spells that a larger proportion of mages wish to use is a slightly more important goal.
And, to do that, magic needs to be suitable for achieving a wider range of goals, without being too risky and without being too overpowered. (So easy, right?)
Utility spells are where it's at, I think. Spells that give people an edge in situations or allow them to achieve things otherwise impossible. I mentioned healing primarily because it's a good example of a situation where most mages, even ordinary folks, would be tempted to use magic. The dispel spell previously mentioned in other threats is another example (you could remove the effects of harmful magic from others, or against yourself, or dispel -beneficial- magic! Worthwhile to cast.)
It's the spells like this, like Moment of Respite, Auspex and the language spells, that see repeated use in RP - the utility spells.
So, in an ideal world, we want utility spells that still drive RP, doing more than just buffing the caster... but beyond dispel, I admittedly don't have many ideas there. Do other people?
I think making magic worth using is more important than making it scarier, atm; as Geras points out, most mages aren't Autumns with an explicit goal of causing trouble and a lot of 'free' power given to them by a villain quest. This is in no way a slight against Autumn, who I THOROUGHLY enjoyed, but I think we have to make magic appealing to the -average- mage... who is likely not an explicitly evil PC, but somebody trying to get along in normal life. You want to be scary as a mage, you've got the tools right now, though I am in favor of darker spells... I just think making spells that a larger proportion of mages wish to use is a slightly more important goal.
And, to do that, magic needs to be suitable for achieving a wider range of goals, without being too risky and without being too overpowered. (So easy, right?)
Utility spells are where it's at, I think. Spells that give people an edge in situations or allow them to achieve things otherwise impossible. I mentioned healing primarily because it's a good example of a situation where most mages, even ordinary folks, would be tempted to use magic. The dispel spell previously mentioned in other threats is another example (you could remove the effects of harmful magic from others, or against yourself, or dispel -beneficial- magic! Worthwhile to cast.)
It's the spells like this, like Moment of Respite, Auspex and the language spells, that see repeated use in RP - the utility spells.
So, in an ideal world, we want utility spells that still drive RP, doing more than just buffing the caster... but beyond dispel, I admittedly don't have many ideas there. Do other people?
Is magic still like this? If so, that's a bit disappointing. I haven't made a character involved in magic precisely because I suspected it'd be just like a magic version of a thieves guild. As in, involved in secrety secret often covert activities, but MAGIC! Also, seems there have been suggestions for neutral spells on the forums (I'm surprised, since I thought all magic stuff was secret), but then why have some of the people in this thread implied that magic is mainly covert thief-like skills which are used for nefarious ends? (like kidnapping).
I'd love utility spells. Say you're an earth aligned mage--you could enhance the plants in an area so foraging is more fruitful. Healing sounds great too. If you're a water aligned mage, maybe some swimming or fishing related spells. Note, I have no idea if this is already implemented for obvious reasons.
Why do mages actually have to be evil bent? / why do we want this? When I thought of the Inquisition, I thought of a bunch of people, often peace-loving pagans, getting burned because 'Witch, witch, they're a witch!' I get that lots of mages would want to fight back, but I bet some would want to just stay unnoticed and simply survive peacefully, going about their magicy business.
Edit: And yes, I Necro'd a thread. Seemed fitting for a magic thread, but if I should have made a separate thread, I apologize.
I'd love utility spells. Say you're an earth aligned mage--you could enhance the plants in an area so foraging is more fruitful. Healing sounds great too. If you're a water aligned mage, maybe some swimming or fishing related spells. Note, I have no idea if this is already implemented for obvious reasons.
Why do mages actually have to be evil bent? / why do we want this? When I thought of the Inquisition, I thought of a bunch of people, often peace-loving pagans, getting burned because 'Witch, witch, they're a witch!' I get that lots of mages would want to fight back, but I bet some would want to just stay unnoticed and simply survive peacefully, going about their magicy business.
Edit: And yes, I Necro'd a thread. Seemed fitting for a magic thread, but if I should have made a separate thread, I apologize.
Hmmm... It's a bit like a magic version of the thieves guild in the sense of being a covert character, but... there is no guild or association, and even the rare other mage you come across in the astral will probably be too paranoid (with good reason) to want to meet you in the physical world. There was a mage guild at one point, but some (Note: EPIC) In-Character circumstances lead to it being completely destroyed. Since then, playing as a mage, you're generally a lonely soul with no legitimate friends or allies, required to keep everyone at arms length for survival. Eventually that gets tiresome and you run into the "mage does random obvious magething out of sheer boredom and/or desperation to play as a mage, is caught immediately and burned" cycle.
In concept the lonesome, paranoid mage population is great storytelling. In practice, it's hard to find a reason to invest yourself in a mage character unless you start out with a background connection to another mage, because you're probably not going to be RPing as a mage otherwise (until the inevitable "Hell with it all, I'll just zap this dude with Sith lightning" episode leads to your burning). There's just not a lot of mage RP to be had, and even less mage RP that's truly rewarding. You tend to fall into an endless cycle of "meet mage in astral, have identical paranoid conversation without rewarding (negative or positive) outcome, leave astral." It's unfortunate, but it's been my experience until creating a mage with a BG connection to another mage. That has led to some great mage RP. It might not hurt to suggest that sort of connection to newer players thinking about creating mages.
Semi-related, I feel that two factors need to be there for a deep connection to the mage story/character... something to stop them being disposable villain-for-an-hour types. 1) The player needs to be able to invest themselves in the mage character so their decisions and the outcome of those decisions matter to them; and 2) There has to be a potential outcome in existence that could make even super high risk choices and plans worthwhile. Murdering the GI, Earl Marshall, Justiciar, etc., shouldn't be the end-all reward for a well-laid mage plan.
Right now, the risk is so high and your ability to defend yourself so low that investing yourself in a mage character to the point that their decisions and the outcome of those decisions matter to you isn't really there. Further, the actions you could take that make the risk worthwhile don't seem likely to be permitted, as they have the potential to change the layout of TI's theme. I see both sides of that argument, but tend to side with the immutable one. TI's theme shouldn't be changed. It would kinda ruin TI. Maybe a conversation about where the boundary lines are would be helpful to that end? We know Mages can't overthrow the Order, but can they really reform the Manus with coded guild support? Are they capable of bringing back the lost Circles of magic so mages can actually train and use them? A lot of my personal trouble with mages is guerrilla terrorism or kamikaze assassination, though I mean no disrespect to those who play mages in that fashion - you've made waves, and that's worthwhile. However, the "species" is being hunted to extinction. Clinging to any last vestige of community and struggling to seize the potential to secretly rebuild is highly compelling. Think the state of humanity in The 5th Wave.
On the matter of mages being "toothless", ehh... I suppose they are. But that's not necessarily a bad thing. It certainly helps to convince the newly Awakened mage that they're not the villain, no matter what history and the Order says. The mages on TI make me think of a magical version of MacGuyver. Tons of utility in the most unlikely places, but without his gadgets... squishy as a newborn baby. I kinda like it.
I should have prefaced all of the above with it being solely my opinion and experience, but I hope it's implied.
Edit: Rereading this, it sounds a lot more critical than I intended it to be. Lily, you really should consider a mage at some point! There are some long-standing issues, but there IS fun to be had in it.
In concept the lonesome, paranoid mage population is great storytelling. In practice, it's hard to find a reason to invest yourself in a mage character unless you start out with a background connection to another mage, because you're probably not going to be RPing as a mage otherwise (until the inevitable "Hell with it all, I'll just zap this dude with Sith lightning" episode leads to your burning). There's just not a lot of mage RP to be had, and even less mage RP that's truly rewarding. You tend to fall into an endless cycle of "meet mage in astral, have identical paranoid conversation without rewarding (negative or positive) outcome, leave astral." It's unfortunate, but it's been my experience until creating a mage with a BG connection to another mage. That has led to some great mage RP. It might not hurt to suggest that sort of connection to newer players thinking about creating mages.
Semi-related, I feel that two factors need to be there for a deep connection to the mage story/character... something to stop them being disposable villain-for-an-hour types. 1) The player needs to be able to invest themselves in the mage character so their decisions and the outcome of those decisions matter to them; and 2) There has to be a potential outcome in existence that could make even super high risk choices and plans worthwhile. Murdering the GI, Earl Marshall, Justiciar, etc., shouldn't be the end-all reward for a well-laid mage plan.
Right now, the risk is so high and your ability to defend yourself so low that investing yourself in a mage character to the point that their decisions and the outcome of those decisions matter to you isn't really there. Further, the actions you could take that make the risk worthwhile don't seem likely to be permitted, as they have the potential to change the layout of TI's theme. I see both sides of that argument, but tend to side with the immutable one. TI's theme shouldn't be changed. It would kinda ruin TI. Maybe a conversation about where the boundary lines are would be helpful to that end? We know Mages can't overthrow the Order, but can they really reform the Manus with coded guild support? Are they capable of bringing back the lost Circles of magic so mages can actually train and use them? A lot of my personal trouble with mages is guerrilla terrorism or kamikaze assassination, though I mean no disrespect to those who play mages in that fashion - you've made waves, and that's worthwhile. However, the "species" is being hunted to extinction. Clinging to any last vestige of community and struggling to seize the potential to secretly rebuild is highly compelling. Think the state of humanity in The 5th Wave.
On the matter of mages being "toothless", ehh... I suppose they are. But that's not necessarily a bad thing. It certainly helps to convince the newly Awakened mage that they're not the villain, no matter what history and the Order says. The mages on TI make me think of a magical version of MacGuyver. Tons of utility in the most unlikely places, but without his gadgets... squishy as a newborn baby. I kinda like it.
I should have prefaced all of the above with it being solely my opinion and experience, but I hope it's implied.
Edit: Rereading this, it sounds a lot more critical than I intended it to be. Lily, you really should consider a mage at some point! There are some long-standing issues, but there IS fun to be had in it.
Last edited by Pixie on Fri Sep 04, 2015 6:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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