Thread Renamed at Player Request

[Voxumo]

Anyone else super impressed that Rothgar said "Drunk as Arien" instead of "Drunk as balls"?

I didn't actually notice at first, but yes that is kind of impressive.

[Rothgar]

That was dumb, ignore that. Apologies, should've stayed off the interbutts.

Anyway, came here to discuss this over my morning coffee before work. Reading thru the thread, I know that I'm only seeing a very brief sliver of the OOC and IC ramifications of what's happened - I try not to pry for these sort of cases, and believe it or not, I don't tend to speak with many people OOC'ly. I could probably count on one hand the amount of people on this MUD that know much of any way to contact me OOC'ly about anything. So I won't be going on too terribly much about all that, as I just don't have the proper intel for it.

Point being, I just wanted to pop in and say that I understand most of the parties frustration. Y'all know I've ragequit before after not getting my way - we all had a laugh about it then, and I'm assuming that we're all good to giggle about it, now. The frustration is totally real, and I gotta hand it to you guys that it's kept pretty damnably civil thus far. I was expecting a lot more swearing and crying, like a really messed-up Jerry Springer episode.

I just... I know the Staff and I have been at odds before. I'm not exactly the easiest dude to be around. Lord knows I act a fool on the regular. That being said, they made a call. Maybe it wasn't the right one - I don't know. I'm not an Imm for that reason, and I've tried it before on other MUD's. I'm not exactly the brightest crayon in the Happy Meal. Anyway - they made a call, and it's the call that they made. Being salty about it is understandable, but calling folks out and lashing out never helps. I've done it, and it only makes people more salty and miserable.

Anyway, guys, I guess I did make an alright point above in that I'll be finishing out this RP and taking a consideration of what's going on. The fact is that no matter how it turns out, OOC feelings are going to be hurt, and grudges are going to be formed. And that isn't exclusive - Y'all know I can hold a damned grudge sometimes. But we'll go from there. I'm happy that it looks like most of the people taking a breather seem to be coming back after a while, and I'm looking forward to either being an 'old character,' or making a new one and seeing where that goes. I'll be back around Monday to take care of all of that, and in a limited fashion the rest of next week because I gotta pop down to Ft Gordon to get some stuff taken care of.

Take a breather. Have a cigarette. Grab some coffee. Make yourself a sandwich (No, seriously, assist helpfile sandwich, it's hilarious). I've said it before and I'll say it again - we're like a big, dysfunctional family. Just because you love someone doesn't mean you gotta like 'em. This is what it is and we just gotta take it from here.

[Geras]

Most policy decisions are discussed with multiple staff. Takta's case was, and it did not appear to be borderline.

With regards to crossover:

- Mostly, we find lots of small crossovers. We usually assess the impact to the game. Mostly, it's what Voxumo said we do - tell the player we saw it and ask them to cut it out.
- Some bigger cases or repetitive cases where a player just doesn't seem to be learning get warnings along the vein of 'you need to stop or you won't be allowed to multiplay anymore'

Takta's case is unique in that she was a staff member and I had to decide what to do about that. Again, the reasoning and all of that is up in my other post.

This is where I think a substantial error was made.

As many of you may know, Takta has been a controversial staff member. I do not believe that she has broken policy before, but I've investigated multiple complaints (which I will not detail for the sake of not besmirching her further with unproven accusations). However, the point is that I have frequently dealt with accusations against her, and she is aware of it.

I have to say this statement rubs me the wrong way in a big way. If those complaints were unsubstantiated, then I don't think they should be relevant or discussed at all. Just because someone complains doesn't make them right.

Look, I think we all need to recognize that we all not only need to be honest, but also need to be seen to be honest. Perceptions matter, and it's for that reason and that reason alone that I think in hindsight that it was a mistake for Dice to respond to the notice of the execution.

Mistakes happen though, and I think it would benefit the game as a whole to know that relatively small lapses in judgement won't result in disproportionately large consequences. I really feel it would have been more appropriate to just tell Dice that it was inappropriate to have Ariel respond to that summons, and then advise the complainant that Ariel was spoken to about the potential conflict of interested and asked not to make a similar mistake in the future.

I do think think Dice was singled out based on the quotes above though. As I said, mistakes happens. :/

As I said though, mistakes do happen, both for staff and players. I do think it's good that everyone here seems to be emphasizing that everyone has the interests at the game at heart here, and no one is harbouring ill intentions.

I would ask that Takta be reinstated once she returns from holidays (or at least have that offer made), and that we all just move forward on the above basis. Maybe the former is naive - I don't know.

[Dice]

On my phone; apologies for brevity.

I'm not interested in coming back at this time and agree there's little point in discussing my case - everyone's made up their mind. But I do see value in clarifying what counts as benefiting your alts or being involved in the same RP thread, etc.

[Geras]

On my phone; apologies for brevity.

I'm not interested in coming back at this time and agree there's little point in discussing my case - everyone's made up their mind. But I do see value in clarifying what counts as benefiting your alts or being involved in the same RP thread, etc.

Figured it would be polite to be asked is all.

I'm not sure further clarity is needed so long as people agree to be reasonable when things are vague.

[Silrie]

On my phone; apologies for brevity.

I'm not interested in coming back at this time and agree there's little point in discussing my case - everyone's made up their mind. But I do see value in clarifying what counts as benefiting your alts or being involved in the same RP thread, etc.

Figured it would be polite to be asked is all.

I'm not sure further clarity is needed so long as people agree to be reasonable when things are vague.

I'm all for clarity.

[Geras]

On my phone; apologies for brevity.

I'm not interested in coming back at this time and agree there's little point in discussing my case - everyone's made up their mind. But I do see value in clarifying what counts as benefiting your alts or being involved in the same RP thread, etc.

Figured it would be polite to be asked is all.

I'm not sure further clarity is needed so long as people agree to be reasonable when things are vague.

I'm all for clarity.

Perhaps I should rephrase:

I don't think further clarity is possible. No matter how prescriptive the rules are, context will always matter, and there will always be gray areas. What's important is that the handling of each case is sensitive to its context.

[Kinaed]

With all due respect, Geras, the paragraph that you isolated is not and cannot be read in isolation. The decision to ask Takta to step down was a holistic decision based on all aspects of that post. The one aspect that you highlighted does not negate the contents of the entire post.

But let me entertain the concern for a moment that unproven policy cases are not of concern - also, please recall I said "unproven", not "disproven".

When it comes to the amount of work I have to do and the type of experience I have running TI, it is wishful thinking that I physically can trudge through unending shit to stand up for "the good guy" (a matter of perception if there ever was one) - as a human being, there are natural limits to my endurance. Alas, I am a leader, and at some stage I have to take responsibility for not only my personal experience of TI, but that of others.

Several people have said I'm "just giving in to whiners". I don't agree at all. Firstly, I'm not a pushover by any stretch of the imagination. Secondly, my decision was not made under duress. Finally, and what I think is really at play here, is that labelling the person who you like and nominally agree with as a "good guy" and the people who complain about that person as "whiners" is a herd instinct that sadly wholesale dehumanizes and minimizes the concerns of people who aren't in the pack.

I don’t have the luxury of ignoring anyone's point of view. I'm the implementor for everyone, not just people I find it easy to identify with or like.

Simply, because I am in this position, I physically cannot make everyone happy. Because I cannot make everyone happy, I don't decide what to do based on what will make people happy. Rather, I try to be as just as possible.

Note: I said "just", not fair. Fairness doesn't exist. Life is not fair and I cannot make it so. Fairness implies decisions made with absolute truth, untarnished by perceptions or lack of full, comprehensive knowledge. That's just not physically possible, let alone realistically.

In my mind, just means I set the expectations, then fulfill them based on advertised metrics. I process policy complaints according to an actual stated procedure, and my decisions align with the values I express to the degree I am able to given the limits of my own knowledge and biases. It's not perfect, but it's the best I've worked out since I started doing this gig in 2004.

[Pixie]

I was surprised at Kin's initial announcement that this counted as crossover because from what I was awareof: Nils was not currently intimately involved with any of Takta's characters, it wouldn't specifically reflect on any of Takta's characters depending on what happened to Nils, and Takta did not have any character involved in Nils' arrest or the actions which led up to them. (Those would be things I would suggest we should look at in a possible policy going onward). I believe this was also Takta's expectations on the rules. Given that both of us misinterpreted this, things could use some adjusting to be more clear and get everyone on the same page. In our case, it's not a matter of just being unfamiliar with the game and general expectations, but seems to be something unclear even on the staff level here. I do want to add that I'm not saying Kin did anything wrong here, and I do believe in her ability to make good judgments on policy (I'm certainly glad I don't need to have that stress!), just that we should move to more clarity.

This. I personally need (a generous amount of ;_;) clarity on how these rules work if they're staying as-is.

[Kinaed]

Meep, reread my post and it sounds far angrier than I felt. Sorry, Geras.

Re: Pixie

Please read HELP CROSSOVER and HELP MULTIPLAY, then touch base with me in game for clarifications.