Nixing the banking system

[Pixie]

This was a random thought I had when discussing thief characters, and how they can be so low-interest/low-motivation sometimes.

By removing the banking system, people would need a place to store their coins, which would likely end up being their homes -- chests, wardrobes, rooms described to be household coffers, etc. Wealthy houses would have wealth in them. Finding a way to burglarize a rich guy's estate would suddenly be worth the risk. Organizing a big ole heist in North Lithmore would so be terribly tempting, where as right now the big question is: "What's the point of that?". People might be more likely to have money on their persons, as well (going all the way home every time you want to buy something would be aggravating), encouraging some pick-pocketing every once in awhile. The idea of rich folk (and guilds) investing in big strong doors and infuriating locks to keep their wealth behind is kind've intriguing. We have a system with perfect and instantaneous documentation for money/withdrawals/deposits, too, which I suppose could be construed as a bit thematically "odd."

I should note: Not at all convinced it's a good idea, myself. But interested to see what people think about it!

[Zeita]

I think this idea has some merit as a gameplay thing as well as thematically.

Banking at the time represented in TI was still very much a 'hard currency' situation, where you needed strong, secure locations to hold coin- in which case, we'd largely be looking at our guilds. The Crown and the Church were big time bankers, and even historical orders of knighthood (Templars, Hospitallers, etc) were major players in the medieval banking game due to a) their funds, b) the security suggested by having it backed by an armed holy order.

I'd be very interested to see us move more towards a hard currency and 'letters of credit' situation.

[Voxumo]

My one thing if this were to become an actual, which I very much doubt it will, is that due to the nature of Silver and Gold being able to be stolen, those who steal it should also be able to be broken into. As it stands right now, or at least the last time I played a brotherhood member, their base/headquarters can not be access at all by an outside person. Even if you know the passphrase and location to enter their base due to being a prior member, the system does not accept it. So if the brotherhood organized a large-scale robbery, which they could, the gold and silver they could steal would be tucked away safely in a location where it can not be stolen back except by those within.

However instead of seeing silver and gold become a "It's your responsibility" I would rather see the locations that the banks store their silver and gold become an accessible location with a limitation to how much can be stolen at one time. For example if the brotherhood managed to arrange a robbery, and planned it out carefully I think they should be able to steal a reasonable sum, just not enough to steal everyone's silver, since silver and gold do tend to weigh a handsome amount, and we don't have the convenience of cars which can carry a much larger amount than a horse.

Hopefully what I am saying makes sense.

[Pixie]

My one thing if this were to become an actual, which I very much doubt it will, is that due to the nature of Silver and Gold being able to be stolen, those who steal it should also be able to be broken into. As it stands right now, or at least the last time I played a brotherhood member, their base/headquarters can not be access at all by an outside person. Even if you know the passphrase and location to enter their base due to being a prior member, the system does not accept it. So if the brotherhood organized a large-scale robbery, which they could, the gold and silver they could steal would be tucked away safely in a location where it can not be stolen back except by those within.

However instead of seeing silver and gold become a "It's your responsibility" I would rather see the locations that the banks store their silver and gold become an accessible location with a limitation to how much can be stolen at one time. For example if the brotherhood managed to arrange a robbery, and planned it out carefully I think they should be able to steal a reasonable sum, just not enough to steal everyone's silver, since silver and gold do tend to weigh a handsome amount, and we don't have the convenience of cars which can carry a much larger amount than a horse.

Hopefully what I am saying makes sense.

Oh yeah, definitely agreed on all fronts. I believe gold/silver when it's in hard currency (if you put it in your purse, for example) already has a weight that would limit what could be carried on your person.

As for "stealing from the thieves", imagine a "raid" command for guildhalls! Some sort of background roll that determines whether you're successful getting through the x-block. "raid <method> <direction>", for example -- so you could do "raid stealth east" to try and get through a X-block sneakily, "raid force north" to get through by force, "raid charm south", yada yada.

[The_Last_Good_Dragon]

I would love to create a system in which theft were more prevalent — and I have never in my life played a character who actually stole things! But I'm not sure if this is the solution. Coded theft is very difficult: a section of the playerbase will always hate it and get up in arms whenever it is happening to them (though, in my experience, they will claim that this just isn't true). Stats tend to play a disproportionate role in influencing the result; since us players can't really see the stats of others, this becomes an anti-fun creation. Thematically, anonymity is a key of being able to steal something: if a noble is robbed by a dark-haired, dirty and unwashed peasant ... well shit all peasants look dirty and unwashed! Just whip one anyways to set an example and keep the nobles happy. I don't think -that- idea would go over well with the Reeves we have.

"Crime" in a MUD like this is so difficult because few thieves want to play through non-interactive segments, but balancing the fun and success of the thief versus the fun and defense of the victim is a damned difficult thing to do. I almost wish there were something I could set that alerted thieves that I was totally fine being stolen from (Farra would have been a prime target for thieves, I think!) and was willing to RP out a theft situation that wouldn't immediately result in the jailing of the person involved.

[Misstery]

While this is a very interesting idea, I think it would create some challenges that should be considered. This would make wages very challenging, especially when GLs are inactive (which we've seen in most guilds at some point) or even just a GL and a member have vastly different schedules. Personally I think the current bank system is good, that being said maybe bank robberies, or the ability to rob a shop mob? (Not sure if this is currently possible as never seen it done).

[BattleJenkins]

I think a good compromise might be to have the banking system have fees associated with it - I've seen other fantasy games where when you deposit to a bank, the bank takes a small cut of whatever you put in. The idea of banking being more or less free to the customer, with the bank supporting itself and profiting primarily through using the money for loans and speculative financing and other things of the like, is a pretty modern one and perhaps a bit out of place. I think a small banking fee - small enough that using the bank is worth it, but large enough that storing money in your home seems like a worthwhile risk - might help address some of these problems.

[Pixie]

I think banking fees would hit the poorest people the hardest. Somebody with a ton of gold isn't going to have any trouble paying the fees, so all their money would be in the bank and not accessible. Somebody with very little wouldn't be able to pay the fees so they'd keep their money on them or in their home. I'd be afraid this would actually make burglarizing Freemen worthwhile when it wouldn't change much of anything for gentry or rich nobles.

[BattleJenkins]

Oh, maybe I should have been clearer! The fee isn't a flat amount, but more of a percentage - so if it was something like 15%, a Freeman depositing their 1 gold earnings for some task only has to pay 15 silver, while a Gentry person might be incentivized to stash that 50 gold they just got a hold of in their personal coffers rather than pay a whole 3 gold just to deposit it.

[Andruid]

I agree that the banking system, like the now-retired guild note system, is convenient in ways that are probably both helpful and harmful to the game. I already keep small piles of coin around for thematic reasons and to expose my character to risks that are otherwise boringly easy to avoid, but I'd love to see some brainstorming around the topic of how to implement a banking system that encourages more IC plotting/types of investments/diversity in professions than the current setup without being OOCly tedious.

The steal command is buggy, its helpfiles are outdated, and it desperately needs an overhaul, but that's a topic for another thread...