Interactive Haggle System

[Taunya]

I had a thought on how to improve the haggle system, making it a little more flexible and fair.
It would become its own command:

syntax: haggle (n*)[keyword/item number] [desired price]

In the case of buying multiples, [desired price] would be the total for all items.

On a successful role, the item(s) would be automatically bought at the desired price. If it the roll fails, the desired price is below what the skill would allow, or haggle isn't allowed for that item, one of two things could happen, based on the roll:

a.) A counter offer at a reduced price, but higher than the desired price, which could be accepted with 'haggle accept'.

b.) No deal. The item(s) are not automatically bought, and can only be purchased at regular price via the 'buy' command if one chooses to.

Successful or not, somewhat similar to 'search', haggle would become usable only once per week per item per location. Haggle could still be used for a different item at the same shop, or the same item at a different shop. This would prevent spamming the command trying to get a better price, and encourages the bulk buying of items which makes sense when trying to get a discount.

'haggle accept' could be dependent on location, with the shopkeeper remembering the deal for 1 IC day, allowing one to shop around looking for better deals at other shops, and return back to accept the deal if nothing better is found.

One added feature is when buying multiples of a 1 silver item, as the desired price goes by total price, a bulk discount would become possible.

Merchants could opt into the haggle system by adding a minimum acceptable percentage of their retail price to the items they sell.

I think it'd be a fun improvement over the current system, which often ends up sticking me with deals I'd rather turn down (Never pay retail! Haha), and would allow one to try haggling for something when they actually don't have the silver to pay full price.
What does everyone think?

[Voxumo]

To my knowledge, you can't haggle for an item if you don't have the silver to cover the potential full cost.

Secondly I do not like this idea. Sure I could see this being nice for actual pc merchants, though it takes away from potential rp they could have, aka actually haggling in a scene, and why would they ever agree to a system that could make them less money, given people barely buy from certain trades as is? And having haggle the way it works now with npc shops... Well it's not hurting npcs at all as they don't even use the silver.

[Taunya]

To my knowledge, you can't haggle for an item if you don't have the silver to cover the potential full cost.

In the game, no. Realistically? It's probably the most common reason to haggle. If you're at the flea market with $35, and see something you want marked for $40, there's a good chance you can talk them into lowering it to $35. The current system in game is like "Nope, 40 silver. That's final. Oh, you came back with 40 silver? Okay, you can have it for 25 silver."

I understand why that is with the system as it is now, but I think a system like I recommended would be a good solution to that.

Secondly I do not like this idea. There is enough unnecessary systems in place, we really don't need another. Sure I could see this being nice for actual pc merchants, though it takes away from potential rp they could have, and why would they ever agree to a system that could make them less money, given people barely buy from certain trades as is? And having haggle the way it works now with npc shops... Well it's not hurting npcs at all as they don't even use the silver.

Can't please everyone.
PC merchants wouldn't have to opt-in, if no minimum percentages are set, their shop would default to not allowing haggle as it is currently, But it could offer the flexibility to use it if they'd like to. One reason they might is people tend to buy more if they feel like they're getting a good deal on things, so allowing haggling on something that isn't selling well otherwise might net them a sale. It doesn't mean they'd have to take a loss on it, if they set the percentage less than their markup. The merchant lowering the price on it doesn't have that instant "Oh I just saved 10% because I'm great at haggling!" feeling of satisfaction for the customer.

[Voxumo]

Secondly I do not like this idea. There is enough unnecessary systems in place, we really don't need another. Sure I could see this being nice for actual pc merchants, though it takes away from potential rp they could have, and why would they ever agree to a system that could make them less money, given people barely buy from certain trades as is? And having haggle the way it works now with npc shops... Well it's not hurting npcs at all as they don't even use the silver.

Can't please everyone.
PC merchants wouldn't have to opt-in, if no minimum percentages are set, their shop would default to not allowing haggle as it is currently, But it could offer the flexibility to use it if they'd like to. One reason they might is people tend to buy more if they feel like they're getting a good deal on things, so allowing haggling on something that isn't selling well otherwise might net them a sale. It doesn't mean they'd have to take a loss on it, if they set the percentage less than their markup. The merchant lowering the price on it doesn't have that instant "Oh I just saved 10% because I'm great at haggling!" feeling of satisfaction for the customer.

Still you ignore the point that this would take away from rp. There would be no reason to rp with merchants in regards to their trade if this system was in place. For example, if you knew a merchant was not allowing the haggle skill in their shop than you can reasonably assume they would not be open to the idea of haggling elsewise. On the flip-side if a merchant is allowing haggling in their shop, what reason do you have to rp with that merchant about their trade?

There is a reason haggle exists, and that reason is to allow you the possibility of getting items for less from npc merchants, of which you can not rp with it to try and get an item for lower.

[Taunya]

Still you ignore the point that this would take away from rp. There would be no reason to rp with merchants in regards to their trade if this system was in place. For example, if you knew a merchant was not allowing the haggle skill in their shop than you can reasonably assume they would not be open to the idea of haggling elsewise. On the flip-side if a merchant is allowing haggling in their shop, what reason do you have to rp with that merchant about their trade?

The NPC shopkeeper could say, "You'll have to ask the owner." in that case.

One could argue that player shops themselves, selling items without the owner present, takes away from possible RP too. But they add in other ways.
Adding it as a possibility for player shops was an afterthought to the idea, so I haven't fully thought it through. It can be discussed though.

There is a reason haggle exists, and that reason is to allow you the possibility of getting items for less from npc merchants, of which you can not rp with it to try and get an item for lower.

And I think my proposed system can do a better job at that. Why would you haggle and still end up buying it at full price if they don't budge? Normally I'd walk away and maybe try another vendor, which this system would allow.

[Starstarfish]

I asked about PC Merchants with their own shops opting in to haggling flag on their shop in some capacity at the latest OOC Meeting on 4/1 - no one was a big fan of the idea.

Personally, I think instead of this whole "I need to get everything for the cheapest possible" idea hence why people go to NPC shops and haggle versus go to PC shops selling the same stuff if we want to encourage RP and people to play certain roles, people might need to be willing to spend a bit more. I'd argue the idea of some set ups we currently have - like haggle-able shops within Guild Halls that allow endless food purchases already take away from certain jobs/professions.

[Voxumo]

I asked about PC Merchants with their own shops opting in to haggling flag on their shop in some capacity at the latest OOC Meeting on 4/1 - no one was a big fan of the idea.

Personally, I think instead of this whole "I need to get everything for the cheapest possible" idea hence why people go to NPC shops and haggle versus go to PC shops selling the same stuff if we want to encourage RP and people to play certain roles, people might need to be willing to spend a bit more. I'd argue the idea of some set ups we currently have - like haggle-able shops within Guild Halls that allow endless food purchases already take away from certain jobs/professions.

I'm not aware of any shops like that, aside from the Knight's keep, and I've never been in the merchant's hall so I'm not sure what they have. Though to be fair, food items... Well they only ever come up in rp in scenes where either you are eating with someone, or catering an event, I see alot of events that prioritize pc foods over npc foods, though often times the old event food tables worked as filler for an event, because frankly coming up with a bunch of new recipes for an event can get a bit hasslesome.

Also I don't understand this concept that people are going to npc shops over pc shops for the same items. Yeah if it's an ingredient for another recipe, lets say a flower for example, I'll typically hit up an npc shop because I know they have said item,and I'm typically on a timecrunch, but those purchases are also so small, pricewise, that pc sellers can't really sell them for any less. But bigger items, I've never seen somebody go "I'm gonna buy this iron sword of "Meh" quality and pay double just to retool it instead of buying from a pc blacksmith and receiving wicked quality and awesome strings."

Does this really happen?

[Starstarfish]

Yeah if it's an ingredient for another recipe, lets say a flower for example, I'll typically hit up an npc shop because I know they have said item,and I'm typically on a timecrunch, but those purchases are also so small, pricewise, that pc sellers can't really sell them for any less.

The difficulty at the moment is that you have helpfiles that imply that selling those basic ingredients etc are indeed viable professions for players (for example, there is a Merchant's helpfile that says the Merchants have a specific rank in the Guild for being a fisherman) so if that doesn't match up realistically with what the general playerbase will actually do - seek out low-priced ingredient items at PC shops versus NPC shops that have constant stock we should probably look at those helpfiles and decide what we are or aren't encouraging people to assume is viable.

Ultimately, I'm fine with whatever is decided, but I do feel either we should support those things being jobs (by adjusting the NPC prices or more randomizing selection or something) or edit the helpfiles. As a newer player who based their decision on a job pathway partly on that to sort of hear after the fact from more established folks, "Yeah, that's not really valid," can be sort of sad/disappointing after you've invested time/money/emotional fortitude into a concept.

I'm not aware of any shops like that, aside from the Knight's keep, and I've never been in the merchant's hall so I'm not sure what they have.

The Madison has one, the Merchant's Hall has more than food shop with endless stock - including one right in one of the workshops. I sort of feel like that would be like selling healing items right in say ... the training area so someone doesn't need to find a Physician or go to the Morris or bring their own stuff. Some of these in-Guild shops include selling items that imply having ingredients that technically aren't on grid for PCs to get and thus compete with. But as a player to compete with that - I'd arguably need to defy the rules in the tooling helpfile about using things I can't get.

With Haggle said shops are selling things close to if not less than really in theory PCs can craft them for, and food is an area where that seems to come up a lot in my experience.

But bigger items, I've never seen somebody go "I'm gonna buy this iron sword of "Meh" quality and pay double just to retool it instead of buying from a pc blacksmith and receiving wicked quality and awesome strings."

Does this really happen?

I've not in my time here played a weaponcrafter or gotten into "bigger items" in fairness. So I've no idea how that compares. but I have heard on guild channels about how NPC shops are more convenient/placed in great locations versus visiting PC shops. Another thread I started about encouraging PC shops implied that any shop more than one spot from a major RP point will likely not be visited. But clearly not everyone

People have mentioned in chats that NPC shops in things like food are seen as more viable to visit because of the ability to haggle to get things cheaper. I brought up being able to turn on/flag haggling in PC shops at the last meeting, it wasn't really supported - overall people suggest marking things lower to compete, however as noted on this thread by the OP - there's a thrill for players to feel like they've "won something" by haggling - a thrill PC owned shops currently can't provide.

[Geras]

One thing that concerns me is as we had more systems to the game it becomes less accessible to new players, so that gives me pause on this sort of thing.

[Voxumo]

The difficulty at the moment is that you have helpfiles that imply that selling those basic ingredients etc are indeed viable professions for players (for example, there is a Merchant's helpfile that says the Merchants have a specific rank in the Guild for being a fisherman) so if that doesn't match up realistically with what the general playerbase will actually do - seek out low-priced ingredient items at PC shops versus NPC shops that have constant stock we should probably look at those helpfiles and decide what we are or aren't encouraging people to assume is viable.

Ultimately, I'm fine with whatever is decided, but I do feel either we should support those things being jobs (by adjusting the NPC prices or more randomizing selection or something) or edit the helpfiles. As a newer player who based their decision on a job pathway partly on that to sort of hear after the fact from more established folks, "Yeah, that's not really valid," can be sort of sad/disappointing after you've invested time/money/emotional fortitude into a concept.

I hate to say this, but that's just how the game functions. It's not the helpfile's fault people aren't interested in purchasing smaller things. For example, my character runs a floristry shop... I have only ever had 1 person buy 2 things, and my shops been open for about 4 or 5 months now, oocly. I mean I'm selling High-tier items that you can not purchase elsewhere except for pc shops, and that you can not make yourself without being in the physicians or the Brotherhood. And I typically charge whatever appraise is set at, meaning 100+ silver. No one cares. I'm even selling little items that are not on grid, and can not be purchased anywhere else, aka blue roses. I'm literally selling a one of a kind item that's only really good as a prop, and no one cares.

The issue is the people not wanting to buy smaller, prop items. Only trades like clothing and blacksmithing are viable on this game. Woodworking and Leatherworking are somewhat viable, but likely nowhere near as much as the first two. All the rest... well you're damn lucky if you ever get more than one frequent customer.

The Madison has one, the Merchant's Hall has more than food shop with endless stock - including one right in one of the workshops. I sort of feel like that would be like selling healing items right in say ... the training area so someone doesn't need to find a Physician or go to the Morris or bring their own stuff. Some of these in-Guild shops include selling items that imply having ingredients that technically aren't on grid for PCs to get and thus compete with. But as a player to compete with that - I'd arguably need to defy the rules in the tooling helpfile about using things I can't get.

With Haggle said shops are selling things close to if not less than really in theory PCs can craft them for, and food is an area where that seems to come up a lot in my experience.

I was not aware the madison has one, and would not even know where to find said shop.