Not sure where to post this, but here it goes. Keep in mind, I'm somewhat new to combat and so forth. Dono how much of this is right or wrong, so please clarify me.
Restraining
Objects like Nets can be used to restrain people. Can we please make certain objects able to be thrown / lassoed and so forth without warning? I could be wrong here if there is another way to use objects like these outside of shackles, which makes sense to maybe warn, but if I throw a net, it shouldn't ask the person to SUBMIT. It should either hit or not hit the victim because why would I ask someone to submit before I throw it?
I've had a few encounters where it plays out that most resist and combat begins. I'm using the net to avoid combat, not technically arrest someone for example.
Double Arrest
Double arresting happens commonly. Both opponents are arresting each other where the other cannot do certain actions. Relogging has to happen.
Arresting Mid Thread
Hide has multiple steps in the thread until success or failure. Tonight, someone came in on last thread and tried to arrest before the success of hide. When sneak / hidden movement happened to escape, either the resist arrest or block triggered and knocked me out. This caused me to be knocked out while hidden and sneaked. No one could find my bleeding knocked out body.
In my mind, I don't know how this could have happened if hidden/sneaked. But, would love to see if we could get the arrest flag removed when hidden as well the ability to at least go visible while knocked out if possible.
Charge
I was getting lit up by thrown daggers / knives / Something. I was too far away. Step was not working and Charge was not working. I used MAP to see my position and fled north. I was in the exact same position from the target when I fled to the next room. Charge worked. In the prior attempts, it gave me the error about position, but fleeing into another room made it possible. Was very confusing.
Flee + MUD Crash
While arresting someone (i.e.: trying to throw net), combat began. I tried to flee north and the MUD crashed. I assume this is because of the arrest flag, but that's only a guess. When we came back, we had to restart all over again. I fled again after the crash and no issues. Only thing differently second time is that I did not try to arrest. We just entered combat after MUD came back up.
Final Thoughts
Combat is a difficult beast on this game. I think most are pretty straight forward with it. Attack, defend, lunge, etc. Getting into wierder scenarios seems to break things. Arresting, resisting, hiding, fleeing, throwing, etc seems to break down the system. My biggest issue is likely the things before combat like with arresting. Would love to see options to do more things before combat begins. I also would love to see how blocking and movement can be improved in combat. Seems a bit funky, especially being a man or woman is not big enough to block a large opening to another area.
Combat Issues & Bugs
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Voxumo
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Regarding the net.. I can tell you right now that will probably never be approved. Mostly it would be far to twinkish. Oh no, this group of Knights are coming to arrest me... Better throw a net as if that would anything to actually stop them.
Everything else seems buggy and would definitely do well being fixed.
Everything else seems buggy and would definitely do well being fixed.
Lurks the Forums
Not really seeing that because knights already have a major advantage over everyone (clarify this if I'm wrong). The net and the ability to net is still going to be in their hands as it would be in my hands. The only real disadvantage here is they become even more powerful because they too can net people easily too, which would mean easier to catch people who are running and or becomes a net fest, both targets throwing wide nets at each other as their first act of aggression.
Besides, nets are things that should be implemented in a way to cut with an edged weapon or if the target is big enough and strong enough, able to lift the led weights as a counter balance to the object restraint itself. Shackles or ropped hands/feet are a different beast as they restrict limbs. Nets restrict body where limbs are still free to move, just limited in space (i.e.: can still wield your weapon in a net and try to cut it).
In my mind, throwing a net would need to pass a check to succeed or fail to hit target. Once it hits, then the target can then begin to take their turns to cut or break the net. Within the net itself, you should still be able to restrain if the target submits (i.e.: pulling the net tighter).
Don't really see that as being twinkish. It's how they are supposed to work. You wouldn't make a sword not slash or able to cause damage would you?
Besides, nets are things that should be implemented in a way to cut with an edged weapon or if the target is big enough and strong enough, able to lift the led weights as a counter balance to the object restraint itself. Shackles or ropped hands/feet are a different beast as they restrict limbs. Nets restrict body where limbs are still free to move, just limited in space (i.e.: can still wield your weapon in a net and try to cut it).
In my mind, throwing a net would need to pass a check to succeed or fail to hit target. Once it hits, then the target can then begin to take their turns to cut or break the net. Within the net itself, you should still be able to restrain if the target submits (i.e.: pulling the net tighter).
Don't really see that as being twinkish. It's how they are supposed to work. You wouldn't make a sword not slash or able to cause damage would you?
I don't see what good will nets add to the game. What new RP avenues this will open? The only thing I see it change in reality is to remove the advantage of having distance over the opponent, as you will be netted and time you try to use to get free will be used to get close to you. And that only takes away RP, not adds to it, but I am happy to be proven wrong on this one.
Re hide and arrest:
From the hide helpfile:
Re charge: What do you mean that it wasn't working? Do you mean that it failed to close the distance or that it just failed with some error? Can you post what error it was specifically, and where was the opponent that you had to change rooms to be able to charge him?
Re hide and arrest:
From the hide helpfile:
So if someone walked on someone trying to hide, before they are hidden, I think that would count as trying to hide in plain sight, and instead of throwing an arrest at a person, it would be better to call turns and take it from there as person wanting to arrest someone else who failed to hide in the room. Or maybe it would make more sense to then RP that he manages to finish the hide, depends on circumstances; was the arresting person chasing the hiding person who then tried to throw a quick hide during the escape but wasn't fast enough?Please note that coded skill results are not the be-all and end-all in the
game. They must be RPed in a realistic manner. For example, it would be
physically impossible to disappear while in plain sight; doing so would be
tantamount to magery. Instead, be respectful of your RP partners and at
least emote stepping behind some object in the room from where their vision
would be well obscured and your character could logically sneak away
unseen.
Re charge: What do you mean that it wasn't working? Do you mean that it failed to close the distance or that it just failed with some error? Can you post what error it was specifically, and where was the opponent that you had to change rooms to be able to charge him?
Blake Evernight tells you, "You, Sir, won my heart today. Are you single?"
I would disagree. If you would allow restraining on a victim, then netting is no different. It's a restraint. It's a pretty significant event on both characters that leads to a different arc in their roleplay at the given time much like being bound and tortured does in a jail cell. If the bare minimum of your RP is standing and talking with another character, then any event beyond that is a enhancement whether it's a opponent wielding a sword asking you for your money, a sudden strike of lightning that hits the ground beside you both, a person running into the scene wounded screaming "DEMONS!", or a net falling over you.Puciek wrote:I don't see what good will nets add to the game. What new RP avenues this will open? The only thing I see it change in reality is to remove the advantage of having distance over the opponent, as you will be netted and time you try to use to get free will be used to get close to you. And that only takes away RP, not adds to it, but I am happy to be proven wrong on this one.
In one example, I was able to successfully net a very important person. They went along with the RP and submitted to my throwing of the net. The person was restrained to the ground and I told them they could RP trying to free themselves by attempting to cut the net via rolls. We did just that. The scene was pretty dramatic and it allowed me to do what I was trying to accomplish in a very realistic bandit fashion until they got free and I ran away.
In another example with a rope, I restrained a helpless female walking alone at night. I placed a object on the ground and they went to inspect it. The object alone is the arc. It provided an avenue to start the scene. Me hiding and coming into view with a rope was the climax and took the scene to new heights that was very exciting for both of us. Then some others entered the scene to defend the lady, this allowed me to RP throwing the rope as a lasso to the other target, snare them, then using my STR to pull/hook them on the ground, we failed (he was limping with a cane) and we both fell to the ground. I managed to escape, but the focal point was the rope and my brutish tactical RP to rob a helpless woman.
Both of these encounters were pretty fun and exciting for all involved. To think these objects and restraining do not give anything to the RP is absolutely not true. These are tools of the trade that open up the possibilities for new RP encounters for various themes. That's ideally why they exist in the first place. Tools for us to have fun.
I dono really, it was interesting. Both of us were standing in the exact same spots in both rooms. One worked in one room, MUD crashed after I tried to flee to next room. We came back, I tried again and fled without a crash and it worked in the next room. Can't remember the feedback message, but seems it was something on range not being enough or something with charge <target> 0 <message>Puciek wrote: Re charge: What do you mean that it wasn't working? Do you mean that it failed to close the distance or that it just failed with some error? Can you post what error it was specifically, and where was the opponent that you had to change rooms to be able to charge him?
The fact that it allows you to restrain someone, involutory, is exactly why I dislike the idea. When successful it automatically switches the dynamic of rp from an exchange between two players, to someone playing a prisoner of the other's whim. And I like to think that something leading to such change of dynamic should require RP buildup to it, and give the other party fair chances to avoid it. Think of it as having an arrest, but one that automatically passes if you win a str contest with the character you are trying to arrest. Would you think that this is a fun game mechanic? It may be fun to the guy who goes and arrests people like that, but it certainly will not be to at least some of the victims because you are refused even a scene of struggle, of trying to fight your captor or flee from him. Effectively restricting their options, so yours can be played out.
Not every interaction is automatically an enhancement just because it happens, that is why there is a strong policy against power emotes. And yes, you could roleplay throwing a net at my character - but you cannot roleplay capturing my character with said net as my character may react in many different ways, from lunging at you or being captured to running away or casting a spell of invisibility (made up example, not going to get into mechanics of magic on public forum). That's the difference between enhancing roleplay, where you let someone figure out how their character will tackle a net flying straight at them, and forcing them into a role that you've assigned to them to which they now are forced to adjust.
Not every interaction is automatically an enhancement just because it happens, that is why there is a strong policy against power emotes. And yes, you could roleplay throwing a net at my character - but you cannot roleplay capturing my character with said net as my character may react in many different ways, from lunging at you or being captured to running away or casting a spell of invisibility (made up example, not going to get into mechanics of magic on public forum). That's the difference between enhancing roleplay, where you let someone figure out how their character will tackle a net flying straight at them, and forcing them into a role that you've assigned to them to which they now are forced to adjust.
Blake Evernight tells you, "You, Sir, won my heart today. Are you single?"
Technically, fun is the name of the game and unfortunately, fun is really in the eyes of the beholder. What I consider fun may not be the same as what you consider fun. It's hard to find that balance when designing a game where everyone has the same views of what fun is to them. That's ideally why you try to add variations of fun to the game. With that, while it may not be fun for you, it's likely fun for someone else.
That being said, I totally understand something like that not being something someone wants. I mean, most do not want to be robbed and attacked anyways. But, you have criminals, guards, combat and so forth for that reason. These are all systems and tools that are provided to us as the players to immerse ourselves into the game. Some of these will be fun for some, where some of these won't be fun for others. For example, I don't think I would enjoy being a guard or protector of the realm. Nor do I think every arrest should end in complete torture in a cell. But, this is likely fun for someone else who feels this is what immerses them.
When it comes down to it. You have to remember that the act of attacking someone is involutory, the same goes for theft, and being tortured when you are locked up. If you made most of these voluntary, they would likely not happen and break the immersion of the game--effectively disabling those tools and systems from the game. If for example, pick pocking was voluntary, then who would allow themselves to get stolen from? You would be tipping the scales to one side of what is considered fun (i.e.: the good guys) while hindering what is fun for the rest (i.e.: the bad guys).
At some point, you have to come to terms that involuntary actions are part of the game as they are in life. At some point, if I do something bad, I have to face the fact that I cannot voluntarily opt out of being thrown in a cell when I do get caught (which is fine by me because I'm a criminal RP'er). It's really a matter of how the staff gives you systems and tools to prevent them in the future that makes them balanced for you as a player to avoid them (i.e.: traveling with guards). At the end of the day, it's difficult to bring these topics up. This is a pretty hardcore RP community that is likely less inclined for player-versus-player (PvP) interaction than a action-adventure community that is looking for cheap thrills. But, I must remind you that there are criminal RP players here and it's extremely hard to function in this type of game where those actions are forced upon you involuntarily to a point where you need an extensive reason and all the stars aligned to make them happen.
That being said, I totally understand something like that not being something someone wants. I mean, most do not want to be robbed and attacked anyways. But, you have criminals, guards, combat and so forth for that reason. These are all systems and tools that are provided to us as the players to immerse ourselves into the game. Some of these will be fun for some, where some of these won't be fun for others. For example, I don't think I would enjoy being a guard or protector of the realm. Nor do I think every arrest should end in complete torture in a cell. But, this is likely fun for someone else who feels this is what immerses them.
When it comes down to it. You have to remember that the act of attacking someone is involutory, the same goes for theft, and being tortured when you are locked up. If you made most of these voluntary, they would likely not happen and break the immersion of the game--effectively disabling those tools and systems from the game. If for example, pick pocking was voluntary, then who would allow themselves to get stolen from? You would be tipping the scales to one side of what is considered fun (i.e.: the good guys) while hindering what is fun for the rest (i.e.: the bad guys).
At some point, you have to come to terms that involuntary actions are part of the game as they are in life. At some point, if I do something bad, I have to face the fact that I cannot voluntarily opt out of being thrown in a cell when I do get caught (which is fine by me because I'm a criminal RP'er). It's really a matter of how the staff gives you systems and tools to prevent them in the future that makes them balanced for you as a player to avoid them (i.e.: traveling with guards). At the end of the day, it's difficult to bring these topics up. This is a pretty hardcore RP community that is likely less inclined for player-versus-player (PvP) interaction than a action-adventure community that is looking for cheap thrills. But, I must remind you that there are criminal RP players here and it's extremely hard to function in this type of game where those actions are forced upon you involuntarily to a point where you need an extensive reason and all the stars aligned to make them happen.
You've picked a wrong partner for this argument as I play almost exclusively conflict heavy characters 
. Tried to play nice once, got bored to death somewhere between fifth and sixth emote.
But the difference between currently allowed hostility and the proposal of a net is that the hostility creates more rp avenues that it closes, generally speaking. When someone picks your pocket, you suddenly have new options - can either go to the bank and just pull more coin out, can go to the Reeves and report a crime, can chase the thief yourself, can slap the thief right in the face if you catch him in the act. If someone auto arrests you, as you suggests with the net, you only have two options - beg for mercy and try to cut the net somehow. It opens a lot of avenues of RP for the netter, but almost none for the victim. Unless you will decide to release him then, but that's up tot he netters grace.
The other examples, torture, or prison, are not involuntary, they simply result from your previous actions. Also, there are serious policies in place that prevent arrests of innocent people (in the broad sense of this word) because of how severely limiting such action is to other players rp. So by the time even an arrest is initiated, you almost always had many opportunities to weasel your way out of it, or at least know that it was coming. Either because you pissed off the wrong person, or stole from the wrong person, or are simply a mage who wasn't careful enough and it rarely comes as a genuine surprise that it happened.
But when you can just net random people, no warning, no nothing, where is the balance in that? Individuals who are fine with that will rp along with you, those who aren't will not. And if someone dodges your emoted net, because they disagree, you can always just beat them into submission and rob/kidnap them then. Which of course comes with serious risks for the attacker, much bigger when you instantly take control of the victim without giving them a chance. But hell, that's the fun part, isn't it?
. Tried to play nice once, got bored to death somewhere between fifth and sixth emote.But the difference between currently allowed hostility and the proposal of a net is that the hostility creates more rp avenues that it closes, generally speaking. When someone picks your pocket, you suddenly have new options - can either go to the bank and just pull more coin out, can go to the Reeves and report a crime, can chase the thief yourself, can slap the thief right in the face if you catch him in the act. If someone auto arrests you, as you suggests with the net, you only have two options - beg for mercy and try to cut the net somehow. It opens a lot of avenues of RP for the netter, but almost none for the victim. Unless you will decide to release him then, but that's up tot he netters grace.
The other examples, torture, or prison, are not involuntary, they simply result from your previous actions. Also, there are serious policies in place that prevent arrests of innocent people (in the broad sense of this word) because of how severely limiting such action is to other players rp. So by the time even an arrest is initiated, you almost always had many opportunities to weasel your way out of it, or at least know that it was coming. Either because you pissed off the wrong person, or stole from the wrong person, or are simply a mage who wasn't careful enough and it rarely comes as a genuine surprise that it happened.
But when you can just net random people, no warning, no nothing, where is the balance in that? Individuals who are fine with that will rp along with you, those who aren't will not. And if someone dodges your emoted net, because they disagree, you can always just beat them into submission and rob/kidnap them then. Which of course comes with serious risks for the attacker, much bigger when you instantly take control of the victim without giving them a chance. But hell, that's the fun part, isn't it?
Blake Evernight tells you, "You, Sir, won my heart today. Are you single?"
I think if the proposed net was simply an effect that caused immobility for a very short duration (long enough to struggle to free themselves if it lands successfully), it might make sense. I believe there's similar examples with certain concocted powders, and likely magic. The restrain/arrest code isn't intended to be used in such a way. It gives far too much power over another character, as it's more intended for securing someone that's already been subdued (or preventing them from escaping until you can subdue them), or taking someone willing into custody.
Restrain does not have any stat or skills checks. It is just a command to enact the intent, not determine the ability to do so. Nets are not specific code that we have, but just a restring on restraints. If net code were added, it would probably need checks, rather than falling to cooperation or combat.
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