Combat Issues & Bugs

[vaxin]

This is a good reason to bring up another point that has been bothering me. Arrest is so fundamentally broken that to win a fight the easiest thing to do is simply start by restraining someone. There are a couple reasons:

1) It can be done from any range

2) It blocks spellcasting

3) It stops any attempt to leave

4) It stops any threaded command

4) It forces combat

I just don't understand why arrest needs to do any of those things. Just make arrest a thing that people can submit to or not, and then automatically works on incapacitated people. Why does the auto-arrest timer even need to exist?

[Famine]

This is a good reason to bring up another point that has been bothering me. Arrest is so fundamentally broken that to win a fight the easiest thing to do is simply start by restraining someone. There are a couple reasons:

1) It can be done from any range

2) It blocks spellcasting

3) It stops any attempt to leave

4) It stops any threaded command

4) It forces combat

I just don't understand why arrest needs to do any of those things. Just make arrest a thing that people can submit to or not, and then automatically works on incapacitated people. Why does the auto-arrest timer even need to exist?

I agree 100% in terms of warning someone to submit or resist. The attack should be manual from the opponent, not automatic.

[Puciek]

My understanding of arrests is that when you use restraint, you should already be in a position to capture the person, strong stance enough their only RP choices away is to either directly attack you, like try to push their way through you, or submit to the arrest. Throwing it in any other situation seems like a rather odd duck to me. And for that reason, I was always happy with it being as powerful, because good rp should lead when it makes sense to use it, not just throwing it from across the room.

[AlwaysShunny]

Why does the auto-arrest timer even need to exist?

This right here. I remember once when an auto-arrest was made against me because I couldn't figure out the command to turn off the attack failsafe in time. I was pretty much new to the revamped restrain system, so I had to ask a staffer to intervene when the arrest was made before I could respond. With staff no longer stepping into RP (which I'm both for and somewhat against) I fear that this could happen to someone again, with no recourse. It's basically an ensured win for the person making the arrest in the situation I detailed.

[vaxin]

My understanding of arrests is that when you use restraint, you should already be in a position to capture the person, strong stance enough their only RP choices away is to either directly attack you, like try to push their way through you, or submit to the arrest.

If this became policy, then perfect. However, it's certainly not used that way right now by people. It's also pretty hard to think of a circumstance where the only two options are fighting or submitting.

[Puciek]

My understanding of arrests is that when you use restraint, you should already be in a position to capture the person, strong stance enough their only RP choices away is to either directly attack you, like try to push their way through you, or submit to the arrest.

If this became policy, then perfect. However, it's certainly not used that way right now by people. It's also pretty hard to think of a circumstance where the only two options are fighting or submitting.

If you look at the arrest as the moment where your character is moving in to take physical control of said person (for example by grabbing him and then forcibly tying his hands together etc) does that clarify possible scenarios? This generally requires for the people to be up close and personal, already trying to grab the person.

And if you try to flee from someone while you are in his reach range, he will simply grab you, easily, and at best you will simply not go anywhere, at worst, you will fall on your ass. Talking from RL experience here, as I've had the unpleasantness of being jumped... more than few times. And your best bet, when the mugger is already close, is to first punch him and only then dash. Because, well, otherwise you land on your ass and not escape (unless you are really lucky and slippery bastard or the piece of clothing held rips away). So I really like that part that if you want to resist, you have to hit, it's realistic, rather than just trying to dart right away.

[Famine]

My understanding of arrests is that when you use restraint, you should already be in a position to capture the person, strong stance enough their only RP choices away is to either directly attack you, like try to push their way through you, or submit to the arrest.

If this became policy, then perfect. However, it's certainly not used that way right now by people. It's also pretty hard to think of a circumstance where the only two options are fighting or submitting.

If you look at the arrest as the moment where your character is moving in to take physical control of said person (for example by grabbing him and then forcibly tying his hands together etc) does that clarify possible scenarios? This generally requires for the people to be up close and personal, already trying to grab the person.

And if you try to flee from someone while you are in his reach range, he will simply grab you, easily, and at best you will simply not go anywhere, at worst, you will fall on your ass. Talking from RL experience here, as I've had the unpleasantness of being jumped... more than few times. And your best bet, when the mugger is already close, is to first punch him and only then dash. Because, well, otherwise you land on your ass and not escape (unless you are really lucky and slippery bastard or the piece of clothing held rips away). So I really like that part that if you want to resist, you have to hit, it's realistic, rather than just trying to dart right away.

You're citing RL scenarios here, but yet opposed to the fact that someone can just walk up and throw a net on you if within range? Getting confused here.

To cite something else, like D&D, throwing a net on something can be looked at as an attack. Much like you can walk up and attack someone with a weapon, the net if used to snare, is a weapon and should be treated as such. It rolls the typical attack roll versus armor and certain aspects of the scene give it advantage or disadvantage. Once hit, anyone in and around the net can break it free or fail to do so if they don't have a way to cut it and or break it with strength.

Unfortunately, if you think that it doesn't open RP compared to something like pick pocket, an action that has a higher chance of the victim not knowing it happened to act on, then we may have to agree to disagree. The point I'm trying to make here is things like the net provide characters like me an avenue to add a twist to the scene as well allows me to avoid combat all together if successful or the opposite for those pursuing me such as the Reeves/Knights/Whatever. Mine and theirs is likely going to be more brute force tactics, which again, is like throwing the net because in theory, it's an attack on the character without their wanting to do so. This is something I'm trying to avoid all together and use soemthing like a net to secure my targets without attacks that can potentially harm my victims with damage.

[Puciek]

If this became policy, then perfect. However, it's certainly not used that way right now by people. It's also pretty hard to think of a circumstance where the only two options are fighting or submitting.

If you look at the arrest as the moment where your character is moving in to take physical control of said person (for example by grabbing him and then forcibly tying his hands together etc) does that clarify possible scenarios? This generally requires for the people to be up close and personal, already trying to grab the person.

And if you try to flee from someone while you are in his reach range, he will simply grab you, easily, and at best you will simply not go anywhere, at worst, you will fall on your ass. Talking from RL experience here, as I've had the unpleasantness of being jumped... more than few times. And your best bet, when the mugger is already close, is to first punch him and only then dash. Because, well, otherwise you land on your ass and not escape (unless you are really lucky and slippery bastard or the piece of clothing held rips away). So I really like that part that if you want to resist, you have to hit, it's realistic, rather than just trying to dart right away.

You're citing RL scenarios here, but yet opposed to the fact that someone can just walk up and throw a net on you if within range? Getting confused here.

To cite something else, like D&D, throwing a net on something can be looked at as an attack. Much like you can walk up and attack someone with a weapon, the net if used to snare, is a weapon and should be treated as such. It rolls the typical attack roll versus armor and certain aspects of the scene give it advantage or disadvantage. Once hit, anyone in and around the net can break it free or fail to do so if they don't have a way to cut it and or break it with strength.

Unfortunately, if you think that it doesn't open RP compared to something like pick pocket, an action that has a higher chance of the victim not knowing it happened to act on, then we may have to agree to disagree. The point I'm trying to make here is things like the net provide characters like me an avenue to add a twist to the scene as well allows me to avoid combat all together if successful or the opposite for those pursuing me such as the Reeves/Knights/Whatever. Mine and theirs is likely going to be more brute force tactics, which again, is like throwing the net because in theory, it's an attack on the character without their wanting to do so. This is something I'm trying to avoid all together and use soemthing like a net to secure my targets without attacks.

If you want to discuss the net, please respond to my post on that matter, not one about arrests while ignoring all the points I've made in the post about nets.

[Voxumo]

I have never heard an instance of someone just "Walking up and throwing a net" at another person. Net's are typically used in prior planning and trapping, not just something you keep in your back pocket and throw randomly, especially a net large enough, and weighted enough to restrain a full-human adult.

[Famine]

If you look at the arrest as the moment where your character is moving in to take physical control of said person (for example by grabbing him and then forcibly tying his hands together etc) does that clarify possible scenarios? This generally requires for the people to be up close and personal, already trying to grab the person.

And if you try to flee from someone while you are in his reach range, he will simply grab you, easily, and at best you will simply not go anywhere, at worst, you will fall on your ass. Talking from RL experience here, as I've had the unpleasantness of being jumped... more than few times. And your best bet, when the mugger is already close, is to first punch him and only then dash. Because, well, otherwise you land on your ass and not escape (unless you are really lucky and slippery bastard or the piece of clothing held rips away). So I really like that part that if you want to resist, you have to hit, it's realistic, rather than just trying to dart right away.

You're citing RL scenarios here, but yet opposed to the fact that someone can just walk up and throw a net on you if within range? Getting confused here.

To cite something else, like D&D, throwing a net on something can be looked at as an attack. Much like you can walk up and attack someone with a weapon, the net if used to snare, is a weapon and should be treated as such. It rolls the typical attack roll versus armor and certain aspects of the scene give it advantage or disadvantage. Once hit, anyone in and around the net can break it free or fail to do so if they don't have a way to cut it and or break it with strength.

Unfortunately, if you think that it doesn't open RP compared to something like pick pocket, an action that has a higher chance of the victim not knowing it happened to act on, then we may have to agree to disagree. The point I'm trying to make here is things like the net provide characters like me an avenue to add a twist to the scene as well allows me to avoid combat all together if successful or the opposite for those pursuing me such as the Reeves/Knights/Whatever. Mine and theirs is likely going to be more brute force tactics, which again, is like throwing the net because in theory, it's an attack on the character without their wanting to do so. This is something I'm trying to avoid all together and use soemthing like a net to secure my targets without attacks.

If you want to discuss the net, please respond to my post on that matter, not one about arrests while ignoring all the points I've made in the post about nets.

You can't really because all those prior points are nonsense. You're confusing both preemptive actions and reactions from actions as a way to make your point. Technically, every action in the game has a preemptive and reaction in the game. You can't argue that. For example, to prevent pickpocket, you can simply not carry anything and not have silver. The same can be said about not being attacked, just hide and never go outside. Then for the reaction, you can react to being pickpocketed by attacking the person and with being attacked, stay and fight or flee and report the attack to the authorities. It's like arguing for someone who has severe anxiety who won't go outside in fear of breathing in air, contracting a weird disease and then dying. At some point, you need to just go outside and deal with the world.

I think it's totally fine if you don't like involuntary actions. Plenty of people want to live in glass houses and not have anything harm their character without having ample opportunity to thwart it away. But you have to understand that it's not all bad gameplay. Running up and attacking someone with a weapon is no different than running up and attacking someone with a object that can restrain them--net or something else.

I also think that such actions should have counters for balance purposes. Being able to dodge and cut are great counters that should exist to give the opponent options to resist, break free, run or attack. But without the option to set a trap, run up and restrain with certain objects, or whatever, it makes it extremely hard to do anything remotely realistic to prevent people from simply keep on walking without the code support. The only option at that point for people like me is to attack them, which I think is a bad option when the only thing I want to do is mug you without harming you.

Thus, what I'm trying to say here that me walking up to someone with a net saying, "Please sir, I'm going to mug you. Stand still so I can throw this net on you and restrain you so I can have my way." is a very silly option that very few if no one is going to do unless you're a knight/reeve really arresting someone.