- Staff Updates
- Player Heartbeat
- Player Topics
Is there anything anyone would like to add to the agenda to make certain we discuss it today?"
Kinaed is lagging a bit.
Empena claims, "I would, but I rather gather it is going to come up already. "
Margaux claims, "I feel like I have something, but drawinng a mental blake. Not feeling well."
Eirian claims, "Another doll for the toy chest in the nursery that's never gonna get used."
Eirian wipes a tear.
Asvaldr claims, "I do have a topic to raise"
Kinaed claims, "I have Bofaha, and Empena, and Margaux."
Kinaed says, "Asvaldr"
Nadya exclaims to Eirian, "Just get tick-tick-ticking!"
Desna states, "I have a topic"
Evani huggles Eirian. "Get married, sir."
Kinaed says, "Desna, got you."
Margaux states to Kinaed, "Provisional Margaux, if I remember."
Desna smiles.
Kinaed states, "If you have a topic, please take the time to pre-write your introduction so the meeting doesn't pause while you write up your topic intro."
Kinaed states, "If anyone else comes up with a topic during the discussion, please send me a tell."
Janus says, "I have a topic"
Kinaed says, "Adding Janus."
Margaux claims, "Sounds like a busy schedule."
Kinaed finishes abruptly, "Okay, kicking off Staff Updates - last week I did a bit of request queue processing, had a starting discussion about changes to the seneschal role powers and city political structure, put up a few changes (the who list change, and a couple of others)"
Bofaha wanders out of the jungle with large stack of bananas and nods to Margaux "Am ready for a long haul.".
Steven questions, "What sort of changes? Or is it too soon to ask?"
Eirian queries, "Anything decided, re: city political structure?"
Kinaed says, "I have some matchmaker code that I've started to socialize to the other staff that will offer people personal quests to go RP with other people for extra QP"
Asvaldr will hold off on talking about the who list change until his topic time
Kinaed says, "Happy to show it to everyone."
Steven states, "M.. thats super sexy sounding"
Evani says, "Right"
Kinaed has created a ledger containing Matchmaker code[20].
Kinaed pontificates, "And that's it for me. Azarial, you're up!"
Norrig gets a ledger containing Matchmaker code.
Bofaha questions to Kinaed, "Objections to forum it up?"
Nyna gets a ledger containing Matchmaker code.
Kinaed wonders to Bofaha, "The matchmaker code? Go for it"
read 2
Empena examines a ledger containing Matchmaker code.
Subject: Commands
Date: Sun Sep 17 00:59:27 2017
Circadi, Januarius 31, 375
Kinaed claims, "Note - this is not it's finalized form."
Janus queries, "This isn't even its final form?"
Kinaed claims, "Happy to take suggestions and ideas. IE, Az hasn't reviewed it to my knowledge."
Temi says, "I'm not entirely sure I read it... I should probably do that."
Kinaed nods at Janus.
Evani claims, "Oooh I like it."
Kinaed states, "Yeah, I sort of dropped it in the staff room and asked staff to read it in their leisure. Not the most high context way of getting things actioned. *grin*"
Eirian drops a ledger containing Matchmaker code.
Kinaed wonders, "Anyway, that is the wave of the future in that area. Azarial? You happy to update us?"
Robin gets a ledger containing Matchmaker code.
Kinaed claims, "I think Az is truly afk - Temi, you're up."
Temi says, "Not a lot of big things for me. Participating in some of the discussions, getting over a cold. Prepping for some additional asset stuff when it's ready."
Evani states, "That is awesome."
Evani drops a ledger containing Matchmaker code.
Kinaed nods at Temi.
Temi states, "Was the spell spec last week or this week? That's around, anyway. Just a fun extra for when Az gets to it."
Temi nods at Kinaed.
Kinaed says, "Last week, I think"
Kinaed states, "On the assets note - Assets are now purchasable for silver in-game at the Town Hall Records."
Kinaed says, "We also changed the who list after a request/comment on the forums."
Temi states, "Or will be shortly. I tried testing it and it needs a fix still."
Evani says, "How come? I liked the long names, but I can see how it would be easier."
Kinaed states, "Lightning strikes will now leave an object behind letting people know lightning struck that area."
Kinaed nods at Temi.
Janus questions, "New spell spec?"
Kinaed says to Evani, "People felt that it was giving out OOC info about the character."
Temi says to Janus, "Consider it a surprise to come."
Steven questions, "Will the verify command for Reeves show if someone is gentry or noble?"
Bofaha claims to Kinaed, "Anyone who wants can still put their name in the title"
Janus says, "...hrm."
Asvaldr wonders, "Will those items decay after a certain time?"
Evani claims, "Oh... uh I didn't but... Eh ok... I just got used to it.
"Kinaed states, "We thought 'well, it doesn't seem that abusable, but it's true that there's no purpose to that info in the who list, so, eh, okay sure'"
Janus exclaims to Temi, "Cool, look forward to breaking it!"
Kinaed claims to Bofaha, "And they're welcome to if they want to."
Steven states, "Aha it does"
Evani nods.
Bofaha says to Steven, "Verify should ye"
Bofaha states, "The city is not that incompetent at keeping records"
Bofaha grins
Janus declaims, "Oh my God, I'm an ab Harmon now! The dream has come true! I repeal the Davism nonsense! Mages rule!"
Asvaldr reposts their question since it seemed to have been lost "will those items decay after a certain time? The items from the lighting strikes?"
Kinaed claims, "Okay, I think that's it for staff updates. We have a HUGE list of players with topics today, so to ensure we get to them, let's move on.
"Evani states, "Tubori will take over the world, what you talkin' bout willis."
Eirian grins at Janus.
Kinaed says to Asvaldr, "Yes"
Kinaed says, "Or, they should."
Kinaed questions, "Okay - Player Heartbeat! How was your RP last week, folks?"
Bofaha says, "Finally alive again after 2 week slump, so yay. Though more or less back to square one hah"
Evani says, "I had an awesome time with my alt. She is so cute. And with this one... Eh, I haven't rped much with her this week."
Kinaed comforts Bofaha.
Asvaldr claims, "Rp was incredibly stressful, but in a good way... well not in a good way but not in a bad way either.."
Kinaed thumbs ups Evani.
Kinaed comforts Asvaldr.
Temi claims, "Jozafat's player asked you to say that he had a fantastic week of rp."
Desna says, "RP was Poor. Had a couple of decent scenes but nothing grandeous."
Temi claims, "Asked me."
Kinaed comforts Desna.
Evani grins.
Asvaldr says, "Ominous letters from the order is always stressful, and was truly worried november had come early."
Margaux states, "I've not been around much since the start of the week. Work & other things interfering."
Kinaed asks, "Anything going on that's shitting people (that isn't already a registered topic)?"
Evani says, "I just had a good time overall. Even some tears, and yes, if I cry it's good, mmkay/"
Bofaha makes the sound of silence
Steven claims, "I had a great scene with a new player."
Kinaed states, "Nice"
Steven states, "And hope they stick around"
Temi says to Evani, "Those great scenes you really feel, yep."
Azarial has returned from AFK.
Janus states, "RP has been really odd. I've tried new alts and tried new things and it's worked really well for some. I've found that some of the characters I RP with have got stuck in a rut of repeating themselves. That's weird."
Evani nods to the teamster
Kinaed wonders to Azarial, "Heya, did you want to give us a quick update?"
Kinaed comforts Janus.
Evani queries, "Eh?"
Azarial claims, "Mostly bugs. I don;t think there was a crash this week"
Bofaha muses to Azarial, "Track crash?"
Kinaed claims, "I think Bofaha reported a crash this week."
Azarial states, "Oh yeah. there was a crash."
Janus laughs.
Kinaed pontificates, "Only one though!"
Eirian chuckles.
Bofaha rains on the no crash parade
Evani claims, "Yeah, not like six or seven."
Safir is idle.
Kinaed claims, "Thanks for the Heartbeat, folks. Sounds overall slightly positive.
"Azarial says, "I was delayed; i had tp let the toccata en fugue in d minor finish. gotta get the most out of that new subwoofer in the car. <_<"
Kinaed claims, "So let's get to Player Topics, because man we have probably the most that have ever been registered, and I hope we get through them all."
Kinaed states, "Bofaha, you're up first."
Janus declaims, "Oooh the car was fixed! Rejoice!"
Bofaha states, "I wanted to raise an issue I have with whoinvis, namely with PCs that permanently live in that state. Characters who do that are very hard to find ICly, and no amount of IC knowledge (like where they house or hangouts may be etc.) helps unless you are just willing to hang out there for an endless amount of hours and hope to get lucky and run into them. Which, I hope that we can agree, is an unrealistic expectation in the first place."
Azarial says, "Nah. new pos. i'm driving another 20 year old subaru."
Kinaed states, "I have to admit, the purpose of whoinvis was never for people to live there indefinitely."
Evani nods. "Yeah... There are several on whoinvis I may like to meet. Or may not, either or."
Janus states to Bofaha, "We're guilty of whoinvis a lot. I think it's since the new 'perma whoinvis for mages' change."
Azarial questions, "What perma whoni9vis for mages?"
Bofaha asks of Janus, "Perma what change now?"
Kinaed questions, "There's a perma whoinvis for mages?"
Margaux says, "For all intents and purposes, there is no way to really tell if that pc is inactive or whoinvis."
Kinaed nods at Margaux.
Asvaldr states, "Could always just do what an anonymous person did for me, and asked that I hop off whoinvis for a bit, and I was willing to oblige"
Desna claims, "I find Whoinvis is used as a defense. I for one enjoy it because it means I can focus on why my character is there instead of having to dodge messengers that would technically never find you way out in the back 40."
Nadya says, "Agreed. It's already pretty hard to tell if someone's missing to begin with."
Margaux states, "I also think it is irresponsible of GLs to do it long term."
Janus claims, "There's a persistent whoinvis across login/logout based on what you set it as"
Kinaed states, "Which sort of removes some OOC info, but it's functional OOC info that helps grease the wheels of RP"
Evani states, "Yeah, but I actually like to be found, so I never use it ever."
Kinaed states, "Yeah, as I recall, back in the day you logged in visible, even if you turned it on"
Bofaha claims to Desna, "They can be ignored or outright rejected, perfectly fine way to tackle them"
Ayse claims, "You can always send messengers away if it doesn't make sense for them to find you."
Azarial claims, "Ahh. so not permanent formages, just for people that set and forget"
Bofaha says to Kinaed, "That is how it worked"
Evani nods.
Janus says, "Sorry, yes, that's what I meant."
Kinaed queries, "Can I get a sense for how many people feel that whoinvis in its current form is problematic?"
Evani claims, "Or just save them till later. It happens."
Eirian states, "People used to complain about having to reset whoinvis, after logging in."
Janus states, "I feel whoinvis is problematic"
Desna claims to Bofaha, "Again, you shouldn't be able to send a messenger to me if I'm out in the King's Forest for example."
Kinaed nods at Eirian.
Steven states, "My concern with the player topic is who shouldnt be getting used as an IC tool."
Temi claims, "I also try to avoid whoinvis when I'm fine to be found. It's sad seeing people that never go visible."
Margaux states, "Yourduties to your guild and the game should come before your personal rp, IMO."
Steven states, "And this is the definition of using it to see if someone youre hunting is around"
Bofaha claims to Desna, "That is exactly what rejection is for, that the messenger couldn't find you etc"
Azarial states, "Could make it so an overt GL can never use whoinvis."
Kinaed claims to Steven, "It depends on what it's being used for. To find people to RP with is somewhat fine to me."
Kinaed says, "To glean information for IC use, not so much"
Bofaha claims, "It's not you rejecting it icly, just refusing it on OOC level"
Desna questions to Bofaha, "But doesn't it let the sender know it's been rejected? How would that even get back to them?"
Asvaldr trails off, "I feel it is important to perhaps note why someone like myself, on another alt, who tends to keep whoinvis on fairly often. I hop on alot throughout the day, to check mail and boards, yet typically don't have the time to rp. Yet my character is a gl... So instead of getting bombarded with tells, messengers or getting people's hopes up that I am around, I tend to stick to whoinvis unless I intend to actually rp, in which I turn it off"
Bofaha claims to Desna, "Messanger could not find the target/went away unheard, something like that"
Janus claims, "It's difficult for people who are playing dead though."
Margaux states, "Honestly, it waves some help RP avoidance flags for me."
Kinaed claims, "That's kinda the definition of RP avoidance, Asvaldr... no offense intended."
Desna claims to Bofaha, "But does the sender know it's been rejected? Sounds like a means to be able to push someone into trouble if they don't respond to you."
Bofaha says to Janus, "But you shouldn't be playing dead permamently. We have IC ways to dispear if you are trying to fake death and get new identity"
Kinaed claims, "I get a bit cranky when I see GLs whoinvis for extended periods of time, if I'm honest."
Nyna says, "I will probably abandon any bad guy characters if whoinvis is turnicated. Its unrealistic for everyone to know suddenly Im in town because I logged in. Now, the hunt is on because they see that number three badguy who was wanted for this that and the other is on and the Reeves or Order goes on high alert simply because the wholist let them know Im around"
Evani says, "I just don't use it. I see whoinvis all the time and I almost wonder who those characters are, but I don't push it usually. Usually i just rp with whoever I find."
Janus states, "I can understand not wanting to be bombarded with tells though. I wouldn't say get rid of whoinvis forever, just maybe a reminder to turn it back on again every now and again."
Kinaed exclaims, "This is interesting, I was expecting to see far more people going 'no, whoinvis is great, not problematic!"
Desna nods at Nyna.
Janus states to Bofaha, "...I know, I handle most of them."
Kinaed says, "But I get the sense that the vast majority of people agree it's an issue that needs a resolution"
Desna states, "Whoinvis is great."
Norrig states, "I think whoinvis is ok, for short periods of time."
Bofaha states to Desna, "It doesn't yell at you there, it simply was not delivered, and that is end of rejected messengers"
Desna states, "But I'm okay with not finding people."
Nyna states, "I dont think its up to someone else to decide if they want to meet me or not."
Eirian says, "Whoinvis is problematic, always has been. But it also provides protection against metagaming, which is why I assume it's been around this long in the first place."
Kinaed muses, "Can I ask that we get a 'what should be done about whoinvis' posted on the forums?"
Nadya says, "... But you shouldn't be using the wholist as a means of capturing and identifying people in the first place, though."
Desna nods at Nyna.
Asvaldr claims, "If I'm hopping on for 2 to 3 minutes at a time... I'm not avoiding rp by having whoinvis on, I just don't have time to be bombarded. Would you rather me be rude or in a case similar to margaux this last week where I tried getting ahold of them many, many times, only to find out they don't have the time to rp, yet are on who"
Kinaed nods at Eirian.
Bofaha declaims, "I love whoinvis! I absolutely do, but I disagree with the idea of living in it permamently"
Norrig nods at Nadya.
Bofaha says, "Just to make that clear"
Kinaed says, "I think whoinvis is slated to change, but I don't know to what degree."
Steven says, "I personally am fine with whoinvis as it is currently, and thats from someone expected to run a law enforcement group"
Margaux claims to Nadya, "What Nadya said. We have policies against that behaviour."
Kinaed claims, "I think it'll need more hashing out than we can do in this OOC Chat."
Norrig nods at Eirian.
Bofaha claims to Steven, "It was invented for the goodies, not baddies actually"
Steven queries, "Maybe put a timer on how long it can be on and a cooldown?"
Kinaed states, "Anyway, I'll start a topic about it on the forums, and we can hash it out there."
Desna states to Nadya, "Doesn't stop people from doing it. Really, the best option would be to wipe the wholist and just tell you how many people are on. IMO"
Bofaha cheers fir Kinaed
Kinaed queries, "Okay, Empena - you're up. Care to introduce us to your topic?"
Nadya says, "I just don't see why whoinvis is now mandatory for antagonists."
Azarial claims, "A mud wihtout a who list feels dead and empty, though."
Nyna states, "I had a character here, about a year back, who ever saw the who list. She was completely cloak and dagger and no one ever got her real name. No one saw her face. She was a secrets character and spied, and she lived in whoinvis. She was fun and it didnt change anyone's RP that she was never seen"
Evani says, "Eh."
Nyna claims, "*never"
Kinaed nods at Azarial.
Evani says, "I have to agree with the mud statement. If you don't see people on, or just an estimate, it's kinda boring."
Kinaed nods at Evani.
Bofaha Who is very important to facilitating RP, just reality of it. We need SOME ooc to make the game run
Kinaed states, "We know factually that if the wholist has below 5 people on it, we get flicker logging - people log in and quit immediately."
Bofaha says, "Can't just hope to keep running into people"
Azarial nods at Kinaed.
Kinaed nods at Bofaha.
Nadya claims to Nyna, "But that wasn't an important part of the character. She would've operated almost the exact same with it."
Empena says, "I discussed this on the forums, and it would seem that were was confusion over what I was saying or why. It was not, for the record my intention to request that Wholist get nerfed or no one have last names. My concern is and was people discussing other people's characters by name over visnet and beginning to question things ultimately only staff could answer. And it happening more than once over multiple days."
Azarial claims, "Flicker logging is very, very spammy on wiznet."
Janus nods at Bofaha.
Desna says to Bofaha, "You could always go into those places where the hidden people lurk. Just sayin"
Evani says, "If we knew where they lurked/"
Evani says, "Which we don't."
Kinaed says to Empena, "The wholist 'nerfed' to remove unnecessary OOC info? Not sure I'd use those terms."
Bofaha questions to Desna, "And wait for couple days hoping that they will lurk at the exact time I am there?
"Asvaldr says to Evani, "Or you just haven't really tried."
Kinaed says, "Nerfing says that there's lost utility."
Nyna states, "To nadya it was crucial to the character. No one had ANY ooc info on her at all, making her incredibly effective"
Kinaed states, "The utility that was lost in and of itself absolutely had no IC place."
Janus states, "Guys, shh, we're talking about Empena's issue now."
Nadya states to Nyna, "They shouldn't be using that OOC info period."
Nadya exclaims, "Sorry!"
Evani trails off, "And I daresay I won't try, because I am not fond of death at the moment. I'm more fond of cake and tea..."
Empena sighs out quietly.
Asvaldr asks of Kinaed, "Who is a completely ooc command, so why would it have any ic place in the first place?"
Eirian claims, "Losing last names on wholist is no big deal. It is more of a deal, imo, if people are getting aggressive and/or upset and defensive over visnet."
Nadya states, "I wouldn't call it a nerfing at all. Our last names are able to be put back into the wholist under titles."
Bofaha states, "I would be unhappy if someone just namedropped my PCs on visnet as example of some IC behaviour, not because there are some secrets broken by simply because that is creepy"
Janus says, "I think that's what the situation was. People were airing laundry on Visnet."
Kinaed states, "Now, Empena, this is not a comment against you or anything like that as I get where you're coming from and I respect that - but people, in general - please do not accuse your fellows of policy breaches on the forums. Please report policy issues directly to staff."
Eirian claims, "I read the convo when I got home for work, and things were a little testy. People were called out, assumptions were made."
Kinaed nods at Eirian.
Bofaha says, "Aye, not cool"
Margaux says, "I missed it, but it sounds uncool."
Evani claims, "I missed it too, actually."
Nadya claims, "I'm sorry for giving faulty information, by the way. I thought I explained it alright, but it was brought to my attention that it was kinda bad. Sorry."
Kinaed states, "I read it because someone passed me the log."
Kinaed says, "The whole convo wasn't very polite, but I also didn't see anyone name dropped on behavior, just a naming of someone as a case of freeman in a GL role and codeewise being gentry. There's no behavior in that."
Janus states to Eirian, "I think I was trying to help and fanned the flames a bit by mistake."
Eirian claims to Nadya, "It's not your fault, and there's nothing to apologize for."
Kinaed claims, "In any case, shit happens."
Temi says, "Visnet may also not be the place to discuss policy. Which, there is no policy issue from what we've determined. But this who list thing is not a personal issue, it's a fix for an IC info leaking OOC that didn't add anything. No one did anything wrong to get punished, it just takes away that temptation."
Kinaed claims, "And that shit is over with, so I don't see any need to dredge it up."
Kinaed nods at Temi.
Kinaed states, "Particularly if there's no policy authority around (ie, me) to correct any misassumptions."
Bofaha nom noms on a banana as topic extinquishes itself
Robin drops a ledger containing Matchmaker code.
Kinaed says, "With regards to the who list, I also don't think Empena should be 'blamed' for the change I introduced."
Eirian claims, "I think this was just another one of those times where a head's up post would have been helpful ahead of the code change."
Kinaed claims, "Someone else suggested the change, as I recall."
Kinaed says, "And I've gotten at least one tell today from someone saying they love it, so I gather some people do, some people don't."
Asvaldr wonders, "Does it only take one person nowadays to raise a concern and said concern be considered an issue?"
Temi claims, "We didn't expect it would actually.. affect anyone."
Margaux states, "I hope nobody is blaming her- it is an insignificant change."
Steven claims, "Im ambivalent to it."
Bofaha trails off, "Given that you can literally have the same name and title, just have to put it yourself... yea"
Kinaed says, "In my opinion, there's no purpose for the OOC info to be there, adds nothing, does add strife and concerns about how people are getting info - so it seems reasonable to remove, and I'll stand by that."
Kinaed nods at Bofaha.
Steven says, "I enjoyed seeing the patronyms but that was purely an asthetic thing"
Kinaed nods at Steven.
Temi claims to Asvaldr, "It didn't get changed because one person brought it up. It got changed because Kin considered what was brought up and thought a fix would be good."
Kinaed says, "We originally added it to give TI a 'cultural feel'"
Kinaed nods at Temi.
Steven claims, "Thats my only issue."
Steven says, "Feel sort of a loss of that cultural feel."
Asvaldr sighs and decides not to jump into that mess of ic slash ooc
Kinaed comforts Steven.
Margaux questions to Asvaldr, "If it is a legit concern, does it matter?"
Eirian says, "So add your patronym to your title. I don't think there's any policy against it.
"Robin states, "People can always put their surname back into their title if they want. Quite a few of us have."
Janus peeks out from her makeshift fort.
Kinaed says, "As for how many people it takes - it might take one, it might take 20. Depends on how aligned the issue is to my thinking and experience."
Kinaed nods at Robin.
Evani has returned from AFK.
Kinaed nods at Eirian.
Asvaldr muses to Margaux, "If it's one person raising a legic concern, is it really a concern? Plenty of matters have been raised by many individuals, yet are ignored or downright disregarded because said concerns are against the majority"
Kinaed says, "There is no policy against adding that information to your who if you want to."
Evani claims, "I added it to my who"
Margaux claims to Asvaldr, "Then they're likely contentious. This isn't."
Temi states, "None of it is decided based on votes. It's decided by our implementor, with consideration of the thoughts of players and staffs."
Steven states, "It is rather nice for a player to be able to go without it in their who. I had a freeman who people thought was Gentry because he actively lold at sumptuary."
Janus says to Asvaldr, "Please be adult about this. Kinaed just said it wasn't because of one person's concern, it was because it was an oversight in the implementation."
Desna nods at Asvaldr.
Desna states to Asvaldr, "I hear what you are saying"
Kinaed trails off, "Okay, so we have a lot of topics..."
Kinaed asks, "Next up - Marg, did you have anything?"
Margaux claims, "I DO remember what was on my mind, but will opt not to raise it. Thanks."
Kinaed nods at Margaux.
Kinaed says, "Okay, Asvaldr, you're up
Please introduce us to your topic."Asvaldr clears throat "So while this wasn't my original topic I had planned, it is a far more pressing matter I feel. While I think I know the reason for the change, the whole visnet ordeal on the forums and the general paranoia that lead to the change in activity, I don't agree with it. Though oddly why I don't agree with it isn't so much to do with my general displeasure in recent changes to hide identity moreso, IE activity command change, but because I used it quite often to just know how to spell a person's last name. There are many characters who have long or complex last names. Some of the ones who come to mind immediatly are Rimilde's, who I can't even spell without looking it up on who, Marisa's, Margaux's, both her previous last name and current last name. Now of course those are just a few examples, and there have been players in the past who have had similarly complicated last names. However with last names gone from who, and last names not even being a requirement in helpfiles... Well I think you can see where my issue is. I'd like to propose last names be a requirement in helpfiles, even if it's just the last name your character uses, and not neccessarily the one they codely have. Mainly just for people who like to know how to spell these names that are overly complex."
Kinaed states, "I don't think people should be required to give out their surname and it's legitimate for people to have to seek it ICly if the surname owner requests it."
Eirian says, "The most important folks' last names are still under guildlist. Maybe expand the width so that last names aren't cut off? Guildlist is still legitimate IC info."
Nyna states, "You could just remember last names, and type 'remember list' however without some kind of sorting on that, it is a bit chaotic to hunt down."
Margaux states, "Using remember player pcname will give you the full name that you've rememvered them by."
Eirian says, "Otherwise, I'd say do the same thing you do IRL and ask someone how they spell their last name."
Janus states, "REMEMBER <NAME>"
Eirian states, "That too, if you've got it remembered from an introduction."
Kinaed asks of Asvaldr, "It's fine if you want to raise your other topic too?"
Temi says, "I use what my character would call them in their remember, including last names, and I feel free to mess it up as an IC thing if it's a hard one."
Bofaha claims to Eirian, "I so want to see a freeman do that to some fun noble
"Asvaldr says, "Yeah sure, let me just search through remember list on a character who is over 2 years old, and who has over 100 people remembered."
Eirian claims, "I've written letters to people with complicated last names and have intentionally misspelled them, or spelled them R________. >_>"
Nyna states, "All my character remember a last name along with, its just easier, I usually include a rank or title along with it as well"
Robin says, "If you don't know how to spell their name, just RP that you can't pronounce it like Robin does. Rimilde von Reeverwhatsit."
Safir states, "I think that should be something players should be responsible for in remember. I have/had characters that do not use surnames. Adding it to my helpfile would not be great. I get where you are coming from, because I did the same thing with spelling and who and my remembered names are all sorts of first impression junk, and I've got a super long remember list with people who are no longer alive on it, but.. "
Temi says, "You can do remember <person>"
Steven states, "I suppose thats the pain of being an old character."
Eirian has also legitimately misspelled Marisa's last name several times.
Janus claims, "I can barely remember my own"
Eirian claims, "Turns out, I had it mis-remembered."
Eirian grins.
Bofaha mutters "Try to have 3 of them. Only reason I have them on WHO is so I will remember.".
Kinaed says, "I think we've beaten this to death; I'm not putting patronyms and surnames back in who at this time. I think plenty of suggestions have been offered by players about how to function without the wholist having that information."
Kinaed asks, "So... Asvaldr, you mentioned you had another item you wanted to discuss at the outset. Would you like to raise that now, or shall I move on to the next person?"
Asvaldr says to Kinaed, "My other topic was just in regards to Hillman/charali being able to be 2nd GLs, as I've spoken with a few players on this in tells. Sometimes we have charali/hillman who are quite active and good at their jobs in guilds, and would love to take up a gl position, yet are restricted. I'd never suggest having a hillman/charali as a first gl, because that comes with the potential for great lord ship, but I don't see 2nd gls as being required to be gentry"
Steven states, "Thats part of theme. I disagree with letting them."
Azarial states, "Part of the second class citizen thing."
Bofaha shakes his head "As resident hillman.... no. It's just so strong against the theme".
Janus says, "I think that's theme"
Robin claims, "2nd GL is as prestigious as 1st. They shouldn't be allowed."
Azarial states, "That's part of why theya re not avaialble in nanny now."
Bofaha nods at Azarial.
Asvaldr says, "We've seen theme changed on a dime, so don't use theme as the immediate excuse"
Steven says, "I have a hard enough time being okay with freemen in big gl roles"
Azarial states, "There are several limitations thematically for them."
Janus wonders, "What's nanny?"
Bofaha claims to Janus, "Creation"
Bofaha claims, "Staff has to set you hillman after"
Nyna queries, "You can not choose hillman?"
Bofaha claims, "Nope"
Nyna says, "Didnt know that"
Desna queries, "Why?"
Janus nods to Bofaha. "Cheers."
Temi says, "Nanny is the part of chargen that's What's your name? fill it in, before you actually get into the chargen rooms."
Kinaed is just listening to the discussion and processing it.
Eirian claims, "The fact that there's something worse than a Freeman is probably why Freemen are even allowed decent positions."
Bofaha claims to Desna, "Because its an extremely painful road to life and absolutely not recommended to new players"
Evani is eating a sandwich
Asvaldr muses, "Why was that changed anyway? You used to be able to choose charali and hillman upon creation?"
Janus laughs at herself.
Margaux states, "I think the no Charali/Hillman is a good bit of theme to hold on to."
Janus laughs at Eirian.
Nadya says, "While it'd be an interesting thing, please note the general power over the city that 2gls have. A second class citizen wouldn't be put in that role-- But could, for intents and purposes, be put in a role that's 'important'. But you'll have to accept that unlike a freeman turned gentry-- Hillmen and charalin are far below the standard social quo."
Eirian had no idea what the Nanny was.
Bofaha claims to Nadya, "And can NEVER be gentry"
Temi states, "So we can make sure newbies aren't accidentally picking it without knowing what they are getting into. Having everyone know that people selected that sort of life explicitly makes it easier for other players to feel good about treating them as second class citizens too."
Kinaed states, "We are talking 2nd GLs here though"
Nadya states, "As I said, 2gls."
Steven states, "It was changed because people would make them not understanding what they were playing, aka Hillmen thinking they should be able to GL"
Margaux says, "Tehre is nothing to stop a GL giving a charali/hill GL powers, just not the prestigious rank"
Asvaldr says to Steven, "I feel like that was a jab"
Kinaed claims, "Just making sure people understand and recognize that. But I do feel it'd still be a major cultural change to even allow them that much."
Steven states, "It actually wasnt. Sorry if I made you feel that way."
Azarial says, "Nanny is the step by step before you get intot he game itself"
Nadya claims, "That's the point. They can be 'important' and do the work, but will not get credit for it. It's erasure based on racism. ... If you don't want to RP that side of things, I'd recommend not playing the race."
Kinaed says, "Hmm. I may just make that a poll on the forums."
Azarial claims, "Name and pasword are handled by the nanny"
Bofaha trails off to Kinaed, "Don't... if you open that floodgate, ugh, well, we will soon have hillmen gls as "norm""
Kinaed claims, "Note, I don't know that a poll saying 'yes, we want hillmen to be 2nd gls' will be enough to sway me there, but I'd like to see what people think on the whole"
Bofaha claims, "If you want to gl, plenty of races to pick"
Steven says, "I am really, solidly, against it."
Eirian claims, "I am not sensing a lot of disagreement."
Robin claims, "Please don't. Stick with the theme. Hillmen and Charali are second class citizens, and people make that choice to play that role."
Nyna says, "I dont think hillman should get that kind of access, its just so against the theme"
Eirian says, "I'm hearing most folks against it."
Kinaed says to Bofaha, "I'm perfectly happy saying no even to things the pbase as a whole want. The benefits of a benevolent dictatorship."
Azarial states, "There are plenty of other races to GL with. it;s not worth trying to buck theme wiuth the plucky underdog concept. <_<"
Asvaldr trails off, "My whole reason even behind raising this was for guilds that frankly don't have alot of players... Not to make it some norm, but to help guilds"
Bofaha salutes Kinaed with spaceballs salute
Kinaed sighs and puts Bofaha in a box in the corner.
Kinaed declaims, "Okay, next topic!"
Ayse states, "Certainly they should be allowed in guilds, but not sure about GL."
Kinaed states, "Desna, you're up."
[Action: Bofaha is in a box in the corner, protesting loudly ]
Desna says, "I've noticed there are is a loophole that can possibly be abused. As it stands, I've found two instances where Patronyms are beings Publicly IC and yet the code displayed the characters as freemen. To be more clear, I believe it is stated in a helpfile that Guildleaders are 'Gentry' and yet the code is recognizing them as Freemen. This allows the two to reap the IC Benefits of being Gentry while not being barred from Southside, allowing them to come and go as they please."
Desna claims, "As it stands, the Prime Medicus and the Grand Inquisitor are both played as Gentry but the code lets them pass by the Brotherhood unmolested. Not saying anyone is doing this and what I am trying to do is point out this loophole before it becomes abused. What I suggest, and this is from my experience with LOP, Smaug, and ROM, is to put in an 'if' check on the command that is used to put a character into those roles. Have the 'if' check look at their social standing of the new leader and if it's Freeman, change it to Gentry -unless- the position is for Tenebrae, Sapiente, Rubeus, and Manus leadership positions ie. covert guilds."
Desna muses, "Thoughts anyone?"
Eirian states, "Those players can make alts. And for all you know, they may have a GL alt who is respectable and not a savage."
Kinaed claims, "Man, that was more effective than I thought it'd be."
Nadya states, "I... What? I can't go southside, though."
Temi claims, "There's no loophole."
Bofaha states, "GI could always walk southside, they are clergy"
Bofaha claims, "Well, less they are also gentry/noble"
Asvaldr says, "It's the knights southside don't like"
Kinaed muses, "Southside is a lawless area, not an impious one, as I recall?"
Azarial says, "The knights have a long huistory of serial slaughters. <_<"
Azarial nods at Kinaed.
Kinaed says, "True."
Steven states, "I dont see why the GI would be molested by the Brotherhood."
Bofaha claims, "By theme brotherhood is united by faith, so yea, what Steven said"
Evani finishes her sandwich.
Azarial states, "The bcg have a beef with the reeves adn the law; they want salvation like the rest."
Nadya claims, "You're secular thieves, not heretics, unless you make it that way."
Temi claims, "If you're a GL that is treated as gentry by code, you're treated as gentry by Southside. If you're not, and you're claiming gentry airs in some situations, you're lying. Which is IC and fine."
Kinaed muses to Temi, "When you say there's no loophole, you're saying that the code does currently check the true social standing of freemen-GLs?"
Kinaed nods at Temi.
[There's a weird gap here, I have no idea why - perhaps an issue with compact mode?]
say Is it theme for the Brotherhood to want to actively keep the clergy out of the Southside? Because the suggestion is to allow the Manus and the Ruebus open access instead, and that seems to be kind of like ... a big suggested change.
Kinaed claims, "Gah, I thought that got fixed."
Janus says, "So it does break the learn slots I have."
Azarial states, "The bcg should not be welcoming the manus, thematically"
Kinaed claims to Azarial, "The problem is that I think circle is now gatewaying on ALL elements, not just the mage's primary element."
Janus states, "That was a different bug, Kinaed."
Bofaha claims to Empena, "Helpfile for thieves makes it clear that magery there is generally not tollerated"
Bofaha states, "Of cours sometimes it happens"
Nadya claims, "If the brotherhood did that, Empena, they're denying the rule of Order, and their ranks would likely would be treated as consorting. (Including those fellows on the street.)"
Temi says to Empena, "We've moved on to the next topic. We've cleared up that the handling is IC, and groups, and such."
Steven says, "Southside would be a giant bbq if they did."
Asvaldr questions, "So if I'm understanding this right, spells no longer are dependant upon ranks in moons/element, but require the proper circle?"
Asvaldr claims, "Along with ranks"
Azarial claims, "They always required the proper circle."
Nyna questions, "I would think just the gentry status clergy would have issue like any other gentry would , clergy should always be welcome, but what is wrong with freeman clergy?"
Temi claims, "I think the issue is... say there's a fifth circle spell that requires 65 lunare and 35 void."
Asvaldr nods to Azarial and is even more confused than they were previously
Temi claims, "With 65 lunare and 35 void, you aren't fifth circle in void magic."
Kinaed questions to Temi, "How is that affecting things?"
Janus claims, "Let me clarify, I'm circle 5 in earth, but a lower circle in fire. So if I've got the required moon/element I don't have the required fire circle, persay."
[Action: Nadya is curled up in a ball, admist this MAGERY. ]
Azarial says, "All of them require half of the primary ability for the secondary"
Lilikoi states, "My gentry clergy alt cannot enter Southside, no."
Azarial states, "It;s been that way since we remved five element mages."
Steven queries, "Whats the point in having split rank requirements if it works like that now?"
Temi claims, "Previously, if you were fifth circle in air, you could do that spell. Now, you have to be fifth circle in void for a 5th circle void spell."
Robin says, "Exactly. It says 65 lunare and 35 void, but actually you need 65 lunare and 61 void."
Nyna claims to Lilikoi, "So it would make sense that those publicly claiming gentry status would receive the same treatment"
Asvaldr trails off, "That does seem a bit... silly"
Janus nods at Temi.
Kinaed says, "I think it's not supposed to be circle by element, it's supposed to be circle overall."
Lilikoi nods at Nyna.
Bofaha states, "Sounds like display bug to me"
Azarial states, "If you are pretending to be gentry, well, the code doens;t know that."
Kinaed states, "I think staff have to take this back and discuss."
Janus claims to Bofaha, "It was a displaying bug that was an issue earlier this month, but the actual problem now is it requires you to match the circle in the specific element."
Temi nods at Kinaed.
Steven states, "Id think its meant to be overall, or archmages would be nonexistant now"
Bofaha says, "But the PC thieves can act on it as they see fit and for example set bounty on that "gentry""
Kinaed claims to Janus, "I'm sorry this has impacted you, and likely other mages."
Steven claims, "Which would be sad"
Nyna says, "Not saying that, Im saying people who are well known publicly to be gentry. should be treated as such in Southside"
Janus says to Kinaed, "Basically, it was an unintended change that came in with the dynamic circles. It wasn't this way before the fix."
Desna nods at Nyna.
Kinaed says, "Nyna, that topic has moved on, and I'm trying to adequately address someone else's topic."
Kinaed nods at Janus.
Kinaed says, "I know. Auto calculating it, if calculated correctly, in my mind, should not have a resulted in any loss to players. That it did means that there is a criteria difference that has been introduced."
Eirian states to Nyna, "I wasn't aware that the GI was treated differently. I'd keep the discussion going on the forums now that you've got the facts."
Temi states, "I think what I was expecting was that the extra bonus perks of a spell for higher circles would be based on the circle of that element, not the overall element, rather than the circle gating spells at all. But I believe the change was actually a behind the scenes one to help reduce tracking details."
Janus says to Kinaed, "Thank you, I appreciate it. As I say, it's taken a long, long time to get those skills, with some players that don't even exist now. I think all it requires is an overall circle to be calculated from your main element."
Nyna says to Eirian, "The website isn't certified, I dont use the website"
Asvaldr queries, "What?"
Eirian exclaims to Nyna, "Or don't, then. Not my problem!"
Bofaha states to Nyna, "You mean encrypted. And that only affects data on that website, nothing else"
Desna says to Asvaldr, "The connection to the website is not secure."
Janus states to Temi, "Yes, what you're saying. The moon/element should restrict and dictate the learn slots, not the circle."
Bofaha claims, "It doesn't mean bad things, only that someone can potentially, maybe, one day, eavesdrop"
Kinaed says, "Again, I think this is a staff discussion. Probably not best hashed out here."
Asvaldr nods in understanding to Desna
Desna queries to Bofaha, "When is that day?"
Margaux says to Desna, "Tuesday."
Kinaed says, "Okay, let's see."
Temi nods at Kinaed.
Nyna says to Eirian, "I just get a warning that states the website isn't safe. Not sure what Im supposed to do about that."
Janus mumbles into silence. "Thanks Kin."
Bofaha claims to Desna, "Given that this is a public forum it doesn't really mater"
Kinaed asks, "Asvaldr, you had a question?"
Eirian states to Janus, "Hope it gets sorted out."
Azarial claims, "What would it matter? it;s not like you use the TI website for banking."
Bofaha nods at Azarial.
"Thanks Eirian." Janus says with a nod.
Asvaldr wonders, "Ah yes, I did have a question. Regarding the idle bit about assets in changes, does that idle timer follow the same requirements as inactivity, or if a person is inactive, yet redeems their asset, does that keep the asset active?"
Nyna says, "I have picked up too many viruses over the days from simple images I clicked on in forums. I just prefer to play it safe. Sorry if that upsets people."
Eirian says, "Oh! I was wondering about that, too."
Safir is idle.
Bofaha states to Nyna, "Encryption won't protect you from that though"
Azarial says, "Four weeks inactive and your assets are stripped, like you8r house."
Kinaed states, "I think player activity is what makes an asset be deemed active or not; 1 hour RP per week. You can redeem regardless of activity."
Eirian declares, "Stripped?!"
Safir is no longer idle.
Safir has returned from AFK.
Margaux states, "That sounds harsh."
Kinaed says to Eirian, "Sold off."
Eirian declares, "That's awful!"
Kinaed states, "It's the same thing for the character itself."
Margaux claims, "I've seen houses linger on people for months."
Azarial claims, "Your house is sold off, and has been for years"
Margaux says, "But the character is reclaimable."
Ayse wonders, "I thought that was after several months of not paying taxes on it?"
Kinaed says, "If you don't RP for 4 weeks, people can apply to wrap your character up, etc."
Empena claims, "I'm not sure that's accurate, there are PC shops etc that have been around the 8 months I've played that to my knowledge no one stocks, works with, or does anything with, yet they are still there."
Steven asks, "Wait so if I go idle for a month and come back Ill have zero assets?"
Azarial states, "If I can get a phome manager written, it would be auomated."
Azarial states, "The shops end up for sale, not deleted."
Eirian states to Steven, "Apparently."
Azarial says, "Nearly everything prunes at four weeks idle time."
Asvaldr trails off, "Hmm... I will admit given teh changes to purchase silver and whatnot, this seems like a particularly harsh thing"
Kinaed says, "I'll extend the meeting as we're over the top of the hour to discuss this topic."
Azarial claims, "Some other things prune at six months."
Kinaed nods at Asvaldr.
Eirian muses, "Is there anything that can be done if people have to go on hiatus for RL reasons, etc? And are able to give notice?"
Margaux says, "I'm sorry, but assets are too intrinsic to a character, and pcs are patently not autostripped at 4 weeks."
Kinaed says, "I don't think we took the changes into consideration."
Azarial says, "Give notice, and it would be reverted."
Kinaed nods at Margaux.
Asvaldr states, "I'd say assets should follow the six months pruning versus 4 weeks"
Kinaed claims, "I take the point; it does seem pretty harsh and potentially unplayable."
Temi says, "We wanted rosters to go up available again, and be able to reclaim those again."
Kinaed claims, "I'll add that to the list of staff discussions."
Kinaed nods at Temi.
Ayse claims, "They are big sinks in silver/xp."
say Six months is a long time though, if the assets market is based on those things being opened to others.
Empena states, "Six months is a long time though, if the assets market is based on those things being opened to others."
Kinaed states, "That's a good point. We want rostered shops to auto-appear available for other people."
Temi states, "But we may want regular assets to be more forgiving. I think you were supposed to get proceeds from one's sold on the market."
Bofaha mutters from inside of his box "But maybe should not be redemaable when someone is inactive? You can log in every week, have no rp, and collect on assets".
Kinaed nods at Temi.
Eirian says, "If they stop paying out, that's one thing. But normal assets getting stripped after a mere 4 weeks is another. Rosters after 4 weeks sounds reasonable."
Ayse states, "I'm okay with roster assets being four weeks, but others seem like they should be longer."
Kinaed lets Bofaha out of the box.
Asvaldr nods in agreeance with Eirian, which is a rarity
Evani grins
Kinaed nods at Eirian.
Kinaed says, "I'll make a note with staff to discuss assets going inactive and what happens when for which types."
Eirian nods.
Asvaldr claims, "That was my only question. "
Kinaed wonders, "Okay, anyone have anything else they want to discuss?"
Norrig hmmms.
Norrig shakes his head.
Bofaha cralws out of the box and looks around, eventually shaking his head "Think am good. Will be enough going in on the forums.".
Bofaha states, "Because that is how english works"
Kinaed says, "If not, thank you for coming to the OOC Chat this week and openly raising your concerns. I know it's sometimes difficult when you don't get the immediate response you're looking for, but I hope that you know that regardless of that, it's still a good thing to get your thoughts and ideas out on the table."
Kinaed exclaims, "Alright, going to trans people back now. I hope to see everyone next week!"
