System RP Detractors

[Andruid]

What is or isn't acceptable, beyond gross examples, really comes down to splitting hairs, and I don't think it's the best use of staff time to be engaging in that kind of policing -- either by actively monitoring/moderating rumors, posting things other people wouldn't have IC reason to know, or by making examples out of other players' mistakes. Especially not if the system itself can be altered to support the desired outcome.

Establishing some sort of IC cost in order to be able to "cover one's tracks" (hide behind a vNPC) might do the trick. I think it's not so much the original rumors that tend to be a problem but, rather, the rampant rumor replies -- which have no source attached at all.

And to add to my own commentary: I don't think we ought to be shutting down legitimate perspectives with black-and-white policy, either. This is tantamount to saying: "No, you can't ever circulate a rumor that criticizes the Order, because that's unthemely." Rather, I think it should be: "Yes, you can engage in that kind of undermining RP through the rumor system, but you do so at your own risk."

[Starstarfish]

Rather, I think it should be: "Yes, you can engage in that kind of undermining RP through the rumor system, but you do so at your own risk."

Thank you for saying this succinctly in a way I likely rambled about.

[Andruid]

Rather, I think it should be: "Yes, you can engage in that kind of undermining RP through the rumor system, but you do so at your own risk."

Thank you for saying this succinctly in a way I likely rambled about.

Welcome! Full disclosure, though? I'm okay with the current system as it stands. I accept the rumor system for the big messy, steaming pile of bullsh*t that it is, and I don't let it get to me. I don't love it, though, and I would be glad to try something different, especially if it made things more interesting and allowed for more actionable intrigue.

I think your rambling touched on an important point about perception: the rumor system doesn't represent, not really, the varied opinions of a whole city full of people. It represents just a few of the loudest or most persistent voices, the tip of the iceberg, and when those voices say extremely controversial or even just mildly heretical-sounding things, it reinforces that disconnect between what we think the populace "in general" might say vs. what players actually want to talk about (the actual agendas folks are pushing in-game). But at the end of the day, a rumor isn't worth spreading if it doesn't ruffle at least a few feathers or get us into that gray middle area where black meets white.

Instead of stepping in with OOC policy to limit the feather-ruffling to reasonable levels, we could be using IC mechanisms to get actual characters to stop, think, and ask themselves, "Is it worth the risk, in the current political climate, to push this agenda and say these things? Do I have the means to protect myself from retaliation? Am I willing to pay the costs required to effectively cover my ass?" And if the answer is no, then maybe you don't get to hide behind a vNPC and say whatever you want risk-free as though it came from "someone else" who conveniently also happens to agree with you. This seems to be, IMO, the best way to keep the system relatively anonymous (still give people "teeth") -- while also grounding the discussions in real RP, by adding more risk vs. reward.

Speaking of loud voices... I'm going to leave things at that and give other folks a chance to say their own spiels. :) Thanks for the opportunity to give some input, Kinaed!

[Kuzco]

So as weird as the idea of papers may seem, it wasn't as uncommon. Granted that the way verify is implemented is a bit oocly, but then your PC can always refuse it. The problem is that without it, well, you have to fill in RPA to get the details on anyone, and that is just asking too much for simple details verification. Have to have that balance somewhere, and the fact that you can refuse it, with whatever IC consequences the Reeve sees fit, seems like a reasonable enough middle ground to me. And it's not like it's widely used on the grid either.

PCs cannot refuse the verify command from the Reeves Archives room.
However, as I spoke with Kinky and Az last year, having it show the height and weight of the target char is a bit ridiculous, even if it makes sense OOCly to ease investigations through plots.

I would make whispering more difficult to listen to, and I would make Jmotes not the stealth screen they are (sans eavesdropping, but command can be easily detected). Maybe make jmote speech work like whispers for outsiders? Or more difficult whispers? Or something more generic like "something is going on at [place]"

I would tie vNPC auto-gossiping to circles. Nothing more inmersion breaking than a nurse speaking like a reeve.

I would add an auto response when you are less than 1/2 MV. "You are getting tired." And it doesn't fire again until you are over half MV again. Also some notice for getting wet would be cool.

[wimple]

My biggest ones have been brought up already. I personally don't even bother with metrics/IP/support because I can't figure out a way to bring it up naturally in RP. It just seems utterly immersion breaking to me. It feels like the kind of thing I'd need to negotiate OOCly for it to make sense (or engage in that conversation along with the RP) which just doesn't do it for me.

I don't mind the teaching spam so much, although I think it could be simplified to a prompt flag, but not being able to look up craft recipes while you are teaching makes it really difficult to give good lessons. There are just so many things characters can't do while teaching or pop you out of teaching mode that it can make those scenes either (a) super difficult to accomplish or (b) cause you to have re-teach/re-listen constantly.

[Zeita]

Since my post a few days ago, I've been reading through the rumours more thoroughly to be able to address the topic more comprehensively. They're so off theme, as a whole, as to break my immersion completely- why is speech here held to a different standard than would be acceptable in an IC conversation? I'd happily ignore them personally, yet others base or inform their IC actions off of them, making it impossible to disregard the system entirely. At this point, I'd rather just drop the system entirely; they're far more of an overall detriment to TI, when weighed up against the limited 'public news spreading' that they do.

The bards used to be able to ICly moderate the rumour system more forcefully by outright culling rumours, which helped to keep down a lot of the noise and nonsense. Giving them the ability to do so would give them some more influence, and would be in line with Brotherhood influence over the bounty system.

[Puciek]

yes please, give the rumours back to bards.

[Taunya]

Letting bards moderate would definitely be nice! Being able to moderate at the reply-level for comments that don't fit the circle would be extra nice!

[kipperialovskii]

The rumor system as it stands relies very heavy on the honor system to work.

Addressing Kuzco

I believe that the circles system controls just who says rumors. It makes sense, since it makes the distinction between rumor-spreaders, that they draw from their available pool, rather than everything at once. Note how chatty nurses/barmaids are distinguished by description. When rumors are 'public' in circles, they're said, reasonably, by anyone. So if someone talks as a Reeve in a public-circled rumor, a Vandagan hooligan and a highborn lithmorran will draw from it in their rumors.

An example:

Rumor title: How does sand taste?
Rumor: Gee, these FARIN sure get on my nerves. I bet they don't even drink WINE with their SAND. Disgusting.
Reply 1: We don't eat SAND! Go back to VAVARD and stop corrupting the LITHMORRANS.
Reply 2: At least we don't leave DUST and COUNTLESS SCREAMING CHILDREN all over the place, you TABAC-SMELLING CURR.
Source: A disgruntled Vavardian artisan
Circles: Vavaridian, Farin
Race relations: Poor

This works, because the author looked at what could be a reasonable cultural dialog to reflect the metrics into a more ambient thing. This, for example, could be the topic of a Council meeting, and the resolution can be resolved by, say, forcing the Vavardians to work with the Farin on communal art projects. Note how both comments and mainline rumors take these into account.

Another example:

Rumor title: Weak chins.
Rumor: These wealthy folk don't know how to work a day in their lives. Look around yah! You think they care? Eat the rich!
Reply 1: I SAY, how utterly vile and quaint. The POORS have risen up!
Reply 2: You wot.
Reply 3: I don't see how you could possibly hate us! We're the upper-class, we employ you!
Source: A rat-on-a-stick merchant
Circles: Freemen
Class relations: Good

This doesn't work, because it's not spoken in the voice of the circle given. As such, you will have whores in the Slippery Dolphin talking like pox-free gentrymen. It also doesn't reflect the metric at all. But in the end, it's all based on the perception of the poster, and the people who comment.

[kipperialovskii]

However, the outright removal of the rumor system detracts from one of the major ways for people to get IP, and to spend it.

As for the issues with metrics/support:

Sadly, there's very little you can do in this regard. personally, highlighting the word 'support' or 'influence' in conversation, and then a quick tell or osay to clarify RP in that regards is fine. It's almost impossible to remind people that the system exists because it slips your mind, unless you're actively reminded that it's a thing. It's pretty minor, because then you take a single awkward 'tell' to make something that makes RP bigger. Like, attacking Piety, or executing people on the side of the street to increase lawfulness, to highlight a desperate change in your character.

As any GL can tell you, your support skyrockets when you make mention of it.


Alrighty, my rant's over, gonna talk about something positive.

I enjoy how metrics affect things on-grid. It's a genius way, I feel, for making things feel living, and have metrics hold weight. An NPC gets the plague, giving it to a player, giving it to more players? Awesome. Being kicked out of the bluebird, but one week being allowed in without having to bribe your way in, because relations are so lax? Oh, the whole discount you get in your own foreign quarter, but when visiting not-your-nationality quarters, they hike the prices up.

I feel like the ambient effects of metrics give the city a third dimension, and are completely amazing.