Fixing rumours, once and for all

[Puciek]

You won't see them because they get reported and removed out of the system, I have a lot less luck and catch them as they turn into the idiotic hate mail they are. And to understand how bad the rumours are now, I really don't need to bring up specific example, but point out that with a lot more players than we had last year, we now have a lot fewer rumors, with a lot less promotes, and barely any with 3+ responses which would indicate a lively debate. What is on the rise is the number of people who will say "i am really not checking rumours anymore". Seriously, go and ask around, don't take my word for it.

I am really warming to the idea of removing rumours altogether and letting people use IC news more as I struggle to see what would've actually been missed after reviewing my logs of rumours from last 3 months. The one or two notable were responses to IC news, which quite frankly could have been done as ic news themselves just fine. They used to be fun, but if you take the IP bonus out of them, who will use it?

[Lei]

I have no problem with the rumor system. Just tossing my input into the pot.

[The_Last_Good_Dragon]

I like the rumor system, but I don't think they should be entirely Anonymous. Like other metrics — city influence, support, subvert — I think that your character should have a basis with the rumor that you promote. Mindlessly attacking people, especially calling them out as heretics or traitors or criminals, doesn't really do anything but make me (as the target of those rumors quite often!) roll my eyes and shrug my shoulders.

If Farra could track down those spreading asinine/overtly offensive things about her down and confront them, THAT would be fun. That would create RP, create Drama, create a reason for all the shit I have Farra do and say to matter on a more engaging scale. Right now, all I can do with rumors is have Farra shrug her shoulders and not care, especially when one pops that should demand a response because if Farra is just taking her privileged out on vNPCs... then what's it really matter?

*Edit* — to Clarify: I think that what you put in a 'rumor promote' should somewhat indicate something that your character might be overheard saying in a place that they frequent. While not specifically the exact words — I don't think rumors should be enough to warrant actual legal or holy action against someone — it would be nice if I could RPA tracking down someone calling Farra a whore or sinner or whatever is popular to call her on a given day and hear back 'Your sources tracked down a man that swore a dark-haired Dame was saying something of the sort to a comrade out on the North Road.' (or whatever) and give me a reason to track down a Knight and demand to know who wants to fite 1v1 on Rust swords only.

[Starstarfish]

I had thoughts on this before on another thread:

I think that the issue with rumors and metrics is linked - now that metrics influence assets and thus income, there is a financial incentive to playing the rumor game to gain the IP to push your desired metrics outcome. This links with Gambits and Seneschal races wherein rumors gaining IP gives political power. They are coded systems wherein you gain coded political power for essentially talking junk without their being a real possibility of recourse or reaction as they are untraceable.

I think adding a Metric slot in the rumor POLCA would be keen and to have that displayed to people adding to the rumor to remind folks about the current Metric status. Rumors that are talking off Metric should be submitted as "Inverse" - and I feel should circulate in more clandestine places. But this idea that every rumormonger in grid would feel openly comfortable in the middle of the Queens spouting rumors heresy or sedition against the Order or the Reeves seems ... off. I feel better breaking up rumors so they all can't be purchased everywhere also gives more clout to the Bards role of being rumormongers themselves. I feel like this role may increase if folks would rather seek out one Bard PC than need to - more realistically go around town to get the hot gossip from the various ranks of society.

- What is the link between Metrics and Guildleader popularity support/influence codedly? What if anything should be the link between these two things in rumors or in general RP?

- What is the link between "Support" and "IP" for the purpose of vNPC support in rumors?

- I do feel we need the rumor system to not put out the same rumor in every place - the locations that get rumors needs to be more strongly tied to Circles. The Dead Siren or the Blind Horse repeating the latest rumors from the Noble circle makes no sense RP wise. Each rumor NPC should pull from a list of circles appropriate to that location, IMHO - not every rumormonger on grid being able to repeat every rumor. Encourage people to go to Bard PCs for cross-rumors or go to different locations. It will encourage RP.

So will every rumor not being set to "Public" rather than a smaller Circle.

- What circle people should be able to access should perhaps be tied to their coded class and/or Guild membership(s). And/or you should need to pay to get into appropriate locations to leave/hear such rumors. Freemen shouldn't be randomly able to hear Court rumors and visa-versa. If you want to cross the great divide that should require some IC effort and live RP/rumor trading with others. Otherwise, rumors become a system that rather than augment RP takes it's place.

- I think rumor promotes should have a character limit - pithy comments not paragraph long diatribes.

- I think rumor promotes should be numbered so you can quash (maybe 1 IP) individual promotes.

Mindlessly attacking people, especially calling them out as heretics or traitors or criminals, doesn't really do anything but make me (as the target of those rumors quite often!) roll my eyes and shrug my shoulders.

The difficulty I experienced as a GL was that people would come and expect you to -do something about it- when there is functionally nothing you can do with rumors save (as I did indeed work IC to do) get Bards to quash rumors. But the difficulty is that when a main rumor is fine, but a single rumor promote takes it off topic to become cancer. And that you cannot currently quash a specific promote response means the entire rumor has to be trashed or reported for a single comment.

You can't find out who is saying it and hunt them down or confront them. But people will RP you "not doing something about it" as a failure to act. When you are Entrenched and Metrics don't support constant lambasting it gets difficult. And it's difficult to ignore when any public rumormonger in a public space can with every rumor tick repeat it. And even if you opt to ignore it, other people in the room grab onto it and want to RP about it. There was a time my solution to that was to stop going into public rooms with rumormongers. People some people RP taking the rumor system as literal fact.

[Kinaed]

To be honest, I like the rumor system myself. The only problem I see is that we have a reactive filtering system rather than a proactive one, meaning rumors that shouldn't make it into the rumor mill enter it regardless. I personally think it's hugely thematic that rumors are next to impossible to trace, and therefore are the easiest place for people to criticize their social superiors. Rigid societies drive independent thought underground, and rumors are ephemeral by nature.

There's also a huge portion of the time when rumors aren't actually unthematic, they just piss someone off. That's about 90% of cases in my view.

It'd be nice if the other 10% of rumors were proactively filtered, but the only 'unbiased' group to do that is staff, and that's an addition to a pretty hefty workload.

[Puciek]

To be honest, I like the rumor system myself. The only problem I see is that we have a reactive filtering system rather than a proactive one, meaning rumors that shouldn't make it into the rumor mill enter it regardless. I personally think it's hugely thematic that rumors are next to impossible to trace, and therefore are the easiest place for people to criticize their social superiors. Rigid societies drive independent thought underground, and rumors are ephemeral by nature.

There's also a huge portion of the time when rumors aren't actually unthematic, they just piss someone off. That's about 90% of cases in my view.

It'd be nice if the other 10% of rumors were proactively filtered, but the only 'unbiased' group to do that is staff, and that's an addition to a pretty hefty workload.

So... why not make it biased? Imagine that power to moderate rumours is given to troubadours, and while they indeed will be biased, they will also be the ones to blame for unfavourable rumour mill if someone wishes to draw IC consequences for a rumor that is popular but, say, paints some influential noble in a bad way?
Maybe limited by some factor, like metrics, IP etc, but overall that could provide both moderation fo anti-thematic rumors (those removed as such, and where staff agrees it's the case can give a refund on whatever will be the price to remove them. Or more specifically cost of not-approving a rumor, as this is supposed to be pre-filtering) and place of redress against rumour mill. I kinda like the power struggle it could create.

[The_Last_Good_Dragon]

@Kinaed -- The problem, to me, is that while I ADORE those who criticize their social superiors, the rumor mill seems to have become the place to do so without either consequence or the superior's ability to respond to it. Nothing about the negativity of the rumor system enchances my rp as a Noble. There shouldn't ever really be a way you can criticize someone without consequence, imho. That just drives DOWN rp as people feel helpless to do anything about it. And, as people have mentioned before, it puts those of us who play publicly powerful characters real irritation when a rumor pops in a room that's especially vile. Theme dictates that I, what? Call a Reeve to have a vNPC whipped? That's about the most that can ever come from a rumor mill that is unfiltered and anonymous. Removing the absolute anonymity from negativity creates a setting where those rumors can suddenly matter, can totally change the feel of the rumor system. And if it makes people a bit more cautious to blatant accusations, I'm not sure that's a bad thing. There's more creative and safe ways of being derogatory to social superiors.

[Kinaed]

I don't have a problem with there being little to no consequences for criticizing someone in rumors. That's pretty much how it is real life.
A superior can respond easily too - just literally respond.

As for making it biased review - I think it'd shut down the system because 1) there'd be only 2-3 players doing the work, and 2) then the Troubadours become responsible ICly for what is there.

[LonelyNeptune]

While rumors were pretty spammy and unthemely for a while, they've improved as of late. I don't think it's a serious issue that requires removing the anonymity aspect, which is a big part of what makes the rumor system special.

[Starstarfish]

The question was asked about systems that detract from RP - rumors that are off-circle appearing off-place for their location IMHO can really pull one out of a scene. Case in point, when the servants in the Bluebird Private dining room or the Acolytes in the Rectory are repeating things in like crusty Southside Freeman accents with lots of swear-words talking about illegal drugs in open discussion:

An accommodating server replies to a bit of gossip, "Strumpet's Lunare Solace? Arien, that's not what the underground bounty network's for. Can buy that in a store. Posting a bounty's for takin' care of business, y'know? Like gettin' something stolen, gettin' someone beat up, or buyin' someone a red smile in an alley for ten gold. Waste o' everyone's time, askin' for strumpet's solace. Ask for some real Arien drugs, at least, and smoke some epiphany. ". [Rumor #4]

So, could Bards or GLs or there be someone with the power to edit the Circle of a rumor to be more appropriate?