Log of OOC Meeting 2018-06-23

[Taunya]

Temi asks, "Our agenda for today is 1)  Staff Updates, 2) Player Heartbeat, 3) Player Topics.  I've already got a presubmitted topic here somewhere... anyone else want to get on the list now?"

Yeto says, "I do"

Theia claims, "I do too"

Temi nods at Yeto.

Temi nods at Theia.

Empena says, "Me but I'm on mobile so I apologize in advance."

Temi nods.

Prisca claims, "I'll put something in, but it's not important"

Temi claims, "Okay, got the pre-submitted one and Yeto, Theia, Empena, Prisca."

Temi declares, "Sounds like we may be a bit full up so we will continue along!  Staff topics"

Temi wonders, "Kin, currently awake for your update or asleep?"

You have paged Kinaed.

Lethanavir says, "Insert tumbleweed"

Temi states, "Okay, assuming that's asleep.  We'll get back to her if we can."

Temi wonders, "Niamh is here or not here at the moment?"

Niamh states, "Very-RL-distracted-Niamh-update: Lots of playtesting Az's plethora of awesome code adjustments and new systems. Continuing progress on the astral grid. The majority of my time was occupied by the new nanny set-up. Testing and building around it. You probably saw poor Apple die a million times and pop up as a new character to the point of spamming you all. "

Temi pontificates, "Thanks Niamh!"

Prisca declares, "I'm curious to try it out myself soon!"

Lethanavir claims, "Same"

Temi says, "For the Az update, we can see some number of fixes in help news.  Let me see if we've got anything else."

Temi says, "Looks like Niamh got to most of them - the fix for bow penalties hasn't been tested yet but is in."

Temi claims, "Okay, so my update then."

Prisca claims, "I'll give it a try soon then"

Lethanavir states, "Teach me senpai"

Temi finishes abruptly, "I've been working on getting stuff together for all this plot stuff.  We've figured out the next big step - the Baronial Council, and I think we've figured out how it's going to work"

Temi states, "Let me post up the council actions stuff for you all"

Temi starts writing a note. (This is an OOC action)

Temi has written a new note, Actions Influencing the Baronial Council, on the General board.
Temi finishes her note.

Current board changed to General. You can both read and write here.
There is 1 unread note.

Theia claims, "Oh! And we're having issues with the Noble Projects thing... if you type project list, it shows one... but if you try to type 'project 1' it doesn't display anything for it."

[ #25 ] General Board
A note has been posted by: Temi
In subject of: Actions Influencing the Baronial Council
Date         : Sat Jun 23 18:17:29 2018
Expires      : Fri Jul 13 18:17:39 2018
To           : all
_________________________________________________________________________
All domains are associated with a certain major influencer on their opinions for
the council, such that they are roughly evenly divided.

These influencers are roughly associated with the different guilds for thematics:

Thieves - Populace
Order - Religion
Merchant - Economics
Troubadour - Appearances
Reeve - Lawfulness
Physician - Practicalities
Court/Nobles  - Alliances

So one noble may be particularly swayed by potential economic benefits, but
another may find legal technicalities to be more important.

We will account for player involvement based on the investment their idea takes.
The time component does not require off-grid time, but precludes doing other RPA
actions for that long, minimum of 1 day.  The investments are of different sorts
and are worth:

Silver - its amount
Items - silver value
Influence - 200 silver
1 OOC day - 50 silver

We will use these values to determine how much sway that equals.  Sway can either be 
for or against either Celeste or Roland.  It can target a single domain or be split 
among several.

Under 500 silver invested - 5 point sway
500-1000 silver invested - 10 point sway
1000+ silver invested - 15 point sway

Up to 5 extra points to be awarded at staff discretion for novel ideas not
accounted for in this set-up.

This sway can then be modified if the action targets their particular concern.

Modifiers -
Targets specific concern - 2x modifier
Done by targeted guild - 1.25x modifier

Once we announce this, those nobles with more than 50 point gap between Celeste
and Roland will declare publicly for their preferred candidate.  Then after
another week, we will announce the same for a 40 point gap. Another week for 
a 30 point.  These declarations don't mean that they can't still change their
vote, but that they won't be as easy as those who haven't yet declared.  With
these announcements, we'll include a synopsis of big player actions that might
be visible.

Temi says, "I'll give you folks a moment on that - so hopefully it provides everybody a particular in that might be interested in being involved.  Each of the different guilds will have something that they will be especially good at."

Temi says, "If you're having issues, please feel free to start a bug for us.  Though I do see a projects bug fix on the fix board too"

Temi says, "And of course the way to sway PC nobles will be actually interacting with the character, I'm assuming."

Prisca muses to Temi, "This will be all via plots?"

Temi nods at Prisca.

Theia cheers for Roland... ducks and hides behind someone who won't stab her*

Lethanavir sharpens her knife.

Temi wonders, "Any questions anybody has before we move on?  We'll need to do a little more before we put out the first status announcement, and then it will be weekly"

Theia scoffs... Letha won't stab the one who keeps her healed up. >_>

Ivar claims, "Man, Roland is a pimp"

Temi grins at Ivar.

Lethanavir grins at Theia. (I have safir)

Niamh trails off, "I am shocked no one has murdered him yet..."

Theodora is idle.

Temi declares, "Look forwards to see what people do!"

Temi grins at Niamh.

Niamh nods in agreement with Temi.

Temi says, "It's all that swagger."

Niamh grins.

Temi muses, "Okay, still no Kin, I assume?"

Ivar claims, "It's cause he's the Rightful King(tm)"

Theia claims, "I mean... if he'll let me give him some more ab Harmon babies, I'm perfectly fine with him."

Theia coughs

Prisca claims, "I've thought of one more topic to add later."

Temi muses, "Okay, player heartbeat!  How's RP been this week, everyone?"

Lethanavir questions, "Theia, there is something very wrong with you and can we please just stab roland already?"

Theia states, "Rp has been... rough at times."

Prisca claims, "Not bad, what time I've had to RP! had some fun and threw a knife at someone once."

Lethanavir glares at Prisca 

Empena states, "Hmm, it's been a bit difficult I confess."

Lethanavir states, "Thanks for that by the way"

Temi wonders to Theia, "Something we should know about on that?"

Prisca declaims to Lethanavir, "Anytime!"

Lethanavir facepalms, "Great"

Theia says, "I mean... It's just been rough in general for me... Off and on."

Ivar begins to count their money.

Theia claims, "Good note, I'm still alive"

Lilikoi claims, "Roland's interrupted ceremony out at Harmon Tower was hella fun."

Temi nods at Theia.

Temi grins at Lilikoi.

"Rp has been pretty great for me, including the knife that somehow found its way into my leg" Lethanavir glances at Prisca.  [Lethanavir]

Lethanavir says, "I couldn't make it to the harmon tower thing sadly"

Theia states, "I wanted to. But I didn't have anything to wear."

Prisca says, "I was working at the time myself."

Theia claims, "I do now though."

Theia claims, "So... if anything else happens. I can attend."

Temi asks, "Well, sounds pretty positive in general.  Anything bothering anybody that staff ought to know about?  Besides stuff already on the list?"

Prisca says, "Or something. don't recall"

Theia rubs a reinforced satchel holds a navy-blue cotton-sateen outfit. 

Prisca states, "I'd heard maybe 3rd hand that there was OOC pressure from staff regarding the way the Roland arrest was handled. I just wanted to ask about that, and see if it couldn't all be handled ICly in the future."

Temi states, "I think the problem on that was that Niamh was just juggling a lot and some players wanted things addressed more immediately."

Ivar states, "I can't think of a moment during that where there was OOC pressure."

Temi says, "I think it got sorted out."

Niamh questions, "Well, I hope it did. Can the persons who told Prisca this, if they're comfortable, let me know (even privately!) what led them to feel this way, so I can work on it in the future and not repeat mistakes?"

Theia states, "I'm not positive it did completely... As we've had some discontent at times since... which was the rough'ness I mentioned. I'm just not at liberty to really bring it up."

Vlora claims, "The problems mainly occurred after the fact, which I'm still upset about- that lead to a characters liquidation. It was just a few misunderstandings on our part during, which did get sorted out."

Temi states, "Well, if the people that are concerned are interested in bringing things up to us, we'd be glad to address things as best we can."

Lethanavir queries, "Who's character(s) is being liquidated?"

Theia claims to Lethanavir, "Already did and it was Farra."

Lethanavir muses, "No one else?"

Ivar says to Vlora, "Honestly, if it pertains to the ic event from the Cardinal, I'm just gonna say as a player right now - tough shit. I had multiple hurdles on Steven working to drive things one way and didn't complain because that's just part of the plot. It doesn't have to be a problem when everything doesn't go the Order's way entirely every time it happens."

Theia claims, "I actually attempted to pboard staff about the issue and Kinaed informed me that nothing had happened. And the next morning, I logged in to have a board message that Farra had liquidated."

Temi claims, "I think you mean Farra's liquidation, and I hope we didn't do anything that made her feel like she didn't have any other options, but in the end, it was her choice."

Vlora states, "Chill, I wans't poking at anyone. "

Kinaed says, "Just woke up and had a glance at the screen."

Prisca pontificates, "Morning Kinny!"

Ivar claims, "Mornin' Kin"

Kinaed claims, "I am on a mobile phone, but have something to say."

Temi nods at Kinaed.

Kinaed claims, "I personally have had it with being accused of stuff whenever a player gets upset about something. As Farra's player is in this room and present to say what she wants to, the fact is that no one pressured Farra to liquidate, and as far as I was aware at the time, the fact that the previous day Niamh was running a scene and unable to help her when she required it was not a factor in the decision. Farea wrote a plot. In the plot she said that her character intended to liquidate if the GI was unsuccessful in arresting the Cardinal if the plot didn't work out and she assumed this would be the case, and if it was, she intended to liquidate. I wrote to her and said that the GI would not be allowed to arrest the Cardinal and she chose to liquidate."

Kinaed states, "Simple."

Kinaed states, "No hard feelings so far as I'm aware."

Kinaed claims, "And immediately I got messages on my board about how staff owe players an explanation about our behaviour and what we're doing, etc."

Kinaed claims, "I'm done, btw."

Lilikoi states, "I don't feel like I need an explanation on anything."

Vlora says, "The player isn't in the room, by the way."

Theia states, "She isn't no."

Ivar sneezes loudly.
Theodora has left the game.

Kinaed queries, "I thought I saw her speak earlier?"

Vlora says, "Nope"

Kinaed claims, "Well, my apologies, I thought she was."

Theia claims, "Nope."

Arkenn has left the game.

Kinaed states, "... no excuses, apology."

Empena is idle.

Empena is no longer idle.
Empena has returned from AFK.

Kinaed states, "Despite that, that is what happened."

Temi claims, "Okay, so... continuing on."

Vlora claims, "I believe that Farra intended to review Roland, not attempt to arrest the Cardinal."

Vlora exclaims, "But yes, continue!"

Prisca claims to Vlora, "Sounds like maybe we hadn't heard the whole story."

Theia claims, "Yea... she was informed she couldn't do that. and felt like she had no choice but to liquidate since she had her hands tied in an OOC method to an IC problem"

Temi says, "I have a topic submitted ahead of time by someone:  Unlike every other weapon class, daggers have a very real RL function as a secondary weapon in traditional combat styles. I was wondering if, when dual wielding two daggers, the damage penalties might be removed to allow characters the image fantasy of operating with that kind of combat style. Note that this would simply allow a character to dual wield daggers and receive the same advantages as wielding just a single dagger and no secondary weapon. Damage nerfs when wielding seperate weapon types makes sense, as does not removing the penalty when using two of the other types of weapons, as all of those can suggest much larger, more cumbersome weapons."

Ivar claims to Vlora, "Even still, there weren't any religious grounds to review him if the Cardinal stood int he way."

Temi has transferred Iorel.  [OOC]

Kinaed claims, "The plot said "I intend to do X. If I don't succeed, I intend to arrest the Cardinal. If that happens, I assume I'll be kicked out as GI and I will liquidate" or something of that nature. I didn't comment on the Roland piece, I did affirm that she would not successfully arrest the Xardinal because that's the Staff's NPC control and escalation point for the Order."

Temi gives a slim, tall glass etched with a delicately rendered eagle to Iorel.

Iorel claims, "Apparently I'm supposed to be here to defend myself, so I'll pipe up."

Iorel claims, "<-- Farra's player"

Temi says, "Okay.  Holding off on the daggers topic for the moment."

Prisca queries, "Should we hold off on the weapon topic?"

Prisca nods.

Kinaed claims to Iorel, "Sorry, I did think you were around. I also don't feel any defending is required. I am, however, not happy that the pbase feels staff have to defend themselves because a player chose to liquidate or there's a rumor that we applied any sort of pressure on a decision like that "

Kinaed trails off, "Please do.. I am on a mobile phone... veeeery sloa typing"

Temi says, "If anyone has the impression staff are forcing someone to liquidate, I'm sure we'd be glad to hear about that, because we certainly do not want to do that."

Prisca asks, "Shall I post the log so far for Iorel to review?"

[The_Last_Good_Dragon]

I'm posting this here to shed some light on the matter that Kinaed brought up. While she's allowed to have her opinion, I don't want misinformation to be spread. Ultimately, my goal was to provide thematic validation for Roland to continue to press his claim — the Cardinal had instructed Farra to keep the Order neutral on the matter (which seems to go against what Staff used the NPC clergy for, in coronating him), and before this Review Farra had leveraged her influence to call for a formal gathering of the Baronical Council, the result of which you can all see on the IC_Event board — but also to hold the NPC accountable for the actions taken in disregard of PC approval. To re-itterate something I think bears mentioning: absolutely no Titled Nobles or GL PCs, through the course of this entire plot, had ever voiced support for the idea that Roland was a valid King WHERE FARRA COULD HERE —edit'd; several such players had openly denounced him.)

(Edit: re-reading the log of before I was told the topic was being brought up with me not present — I think the below information clearly states that, had the Cardinal stood in Farra's way, that I'd have been fine with RPing that out to the end but would PROBABLY lead to Farra's liquidation .. There was some other stuff going on creating strain between Farra and the Cardinal, and Farra in general — as I think most people who have ever RP'd with her can confirm — she HATES the idea of someone going over her head. Prolly a napolean complex!)

Header       : 45, The Hawk and the Lion
Title        : Farra Reviews Roland ab Beaufort
Plot Advance : Farra, having is a warrant for and overseen the arrest of Roland ab Beaufort,
will conduct a Review of Faith of the Lord of Asglen.  The accused sins as
laid out through RP:

-- Please see Request Board post for advance, as it (and the rationalization
at each step that Farra used) was too long for a plot advance.  X.x -- 

Submitter:   : Farra
Contributors : (null)
Share To     : (null)
Staff Support: I was advised that the above Review might need some discussion as per HELP
MONARCH by Niamh; in the (much longer holy crap how'd I write all this in 15
mintues) writeup, I adjusted some of Farra's approach, mostly keying in on 
Farra's desire to keep Roland in the Keep if he refused to stop calling himself 
King, justified not by Farra conceeding the point but by a re-evaluation of the 
point (see: Lawlessness #1).
 
However, failure by Roland to accept and show pentinence towards the sins Farra 
does find him guilty of will cause Farra to potentially escalate the sins, as 
would be expected of anyone telling the Inquisition 'no ur wrong' at the 
conclusion of a Review. Should the Cardinal try to overrule or invalidate 
Farra's authority on this matter (which is pretty clear that the Grand 
Inquisitor has the right to declare nobles guilty) then there will be pretty 
drastic reactions by Farra ICly, prolly involving her ultimately being removed 
as GI by Staff and her liquidation (I'm liquidating Farra if she loses GI; I'm 
too eager to play a new character and Farra has had enough story told about her 
already and certainly will by the time she's no longer GI, whenver that is!) If 
Staff determines that thematically reviewable nobles don't include ones who 
randomly declare themselves King without the law supporting them -- players, 
high-ranking Reeves included, made it pretty clear during the Council meeting 
they don't see Roland's claim as legitimate at this point -- then I'll probably 
be stepping down as GI too, as frankly that would just be a bit ridiculous.
 
In any case, no matter what I'm eager to see where this all goes! This plot has 
been a lot of fun from start to finish, barring a few OOC misunderstandings on 
my point on some of what went down.

Private Notes: Text is also available at https://pastebin.com/raw/LwTyuEAL

Staff Reply  : (null)
Processed    : no
Public Hook  : No
IC Event     : No

-------------------------------------------------

[ #157 ] Plots Board
A note has been posted by: Plot Daemon
In subject of: Plot Advancement 954 Farra Reviews Roland ab Beaufort, against The Hawk and the Lion (Edited by Kinaed) (Edited by Farra)
Date         : Mon Jun 18 20:37:09 2018
Edited       : Mon Jun 18 20:58:57 2018
Expires      : Thu Jul 19 20:37:09 2018
To           : staff Farra
_________________________________________________________________________
Farra submitted plot advancement 954 Farra Reviews Roland ab Beaufort,
against The Hawk and the Lion and shared it with you.  Please review and
track the progress of this plot as the share implies your character would
ICly be involved.  

Kinaed Hi Farra, 

It was brought to my attention that you're arrested an annointed king and are
talking about liquidation if things don't go Farra's way.

The GI does have the right to arrest the general nobility, but does not have
the right to arrest royalty.  Like it or not, Roland was duly and publicly
coronated.  Whether it will stick is a matter for player's RP to decide.  I
have no issues with your character's qctions thus far...  

That said, we'd like this plot to be enjoyed by the broader pbase, not simply
decided by a couple of powerful players.  Please don't hog the plot or say
"it's my way or the highway".  I'm not sure that's what you are saying, but
it feels uncomfortably close.

You are correct that there is no way Farra can successfully arrest the
Cardinal as that is more than a plot point, but it's the Staff's OOC control
mechanism and escalation point for the Order.  I'm glad you understand it and
are clearly aware of the consequences of going against the Cardinal/Synod.

I'm pretty glad that you've enjoyed the plot so far, and we've loved your
engagement and that of the Knights.  For the record, I did hear about your
upset about encountering the scripted NPC.  For the record, we created this
intended to be a fun, realistic (and overcome-able) barrier because Farra
ICly told Roland she'd try to arrest him for herest if he went ahead, so it
seemed like a reasonable IC precaution.  We did not expect it to cause the
level of upset that it did.  For that, we apologize.
 

Farra - Hi Kinaed.  I'll go ahead and proceed with liquidation, finally, if
that's alright.  I'm a bit tired of explaining myself on these fronts, and I
think I'll enjoy TLI much more from a place of lesser social importance. 
Thank you. 

-------------------------------------------------

Temi tells you, "We were going to go ahead and process your liquidation as requested, if you are ready?  There won't be another restoration from it."
You reply to Temi, "Oh! Sorry, I'd like to pause -- I approached the Mages and Brotherhood about giving Farra a death arch, and someone piped up and asked for a bit of time to think."

-------------------------------------------------

Hi Staff.

Can we please go ahead and liquidate Farra?  I'm just worn out by the stress
of dealing with theme-related things at this point.  I'd rather enjoy the
game without these stessors again.  It was fun while it lasted, and I truly
enjoyed the clergy-related aspects of the role, but I'm just tired of the
expectation at this point.  I'll be much happier with TLI from a perspective
of someone who no longer has to care about a strange support/approval system,
enforcing Order theme in ways that don't upset Staff members, or playing a
character with the complications and history that Farra has created for
herself.

I don't believe that any of the qualifiers of 'help liquidation' apply to
Farra, and if they do I have no interest in RPing them out; she's certainly
not actively hunted or wanted for anything that I know of.  

Thanks.  <3 Farra

 Farra - Quick Update: I've approached via the anonymous board covert
characters and offered to give people an opportunity to do something to kill
Farra off.  They've asked for a bit of time to consider an idea, so I'll
pause this for now with the intention of having Farra die fairly quickly. 
> Posted!

-------------------------------------------------

Kinaed tells you, "My staff have contacted me saying that you want a pause on your liquidation request. We are a bit uncomfortable with RP being arranged OOCly with people in this manner. The way it typically works is that if you want to arrange for someone to be part of a liquidation, they come to staff, we work out the story, and execute it. It is generally not done by players without staff oversight as arranging RP outcomes OOCly is against policy."
You tell Kinaed, "I had thought Staff would see a note posted to 'Mage Brotherhood'. Can I run the death scene as an ST?"

(30 minutes later) 
You tell Kinaed, "I'd love to have an answer before I go to bed."
Kinaed tells you, "At work, sorry. I have to think about it."
You tell Kinaed, "I'm sorry -- what is there to think about? You've allowed characters to run STs involving their death before."
Kinaed tells you, "I've had a bad day in ways that you are unaware of. Stop harassing me."
Kinaed tells you, "I don't mean to be a jerk, but I cannot deal with your needs right now."

(few minutes later.. I was in the middle of a scene with Farra with someone while this came up.)
You tell Kinaed, "K. Will make the decision easy and just go forward with the liquidation now."
Kinaed tells you, "Sure thing. Tell Niamh plz as I'm not in a position to process it."

[chronodbu]

[removed to repost it after the logs]

[Taunya]

Temi states, "But in general, if people choose to liquidate, they are the only one that can answer to it."

Theia questions, "The staff shouldn't need to defend themselves. That is true. But the reason is because unless there is an issue with something dire happening in game, staff shouldn't interfere with anything. I think that is your personal stance on it was it not?"

Iorel states, "I absolutely and thoroughly disagree with Kinaed's representation of what happened. I did say that I'd liquidate Farra if Staff decided that Farra couldn't Review Roland as he was a 'legitimate monarch' by being coronated by a clergy member of lesser rank than Farra (he was coronated by a bishop of asglen, as I understand it, or an Archbishop who would not have jurisdiction in Farra's thematic domain), as that would represent a disagreement in Theme that I was not willing to bridge -- to wit: can a PC Bishop coronate a PC noble and say they are a Monarch, now? It didn't sit right to me.

There was a scenario that I outlined where I could see Farra going against the Cardinal and calling for his removal, which I outlined. I said that I expected this would not be possible, but as it'd be Farra's appropriate response, it would likely lead to me no longer being GI and that, after that concluded, I would liquidate as Farra is an old character who has seen 3 significant character archs. I have always said that when Farra was no longer GI that I'd liquidate her."

Ivar wonders to Theia, "This is in direct relation to a staff plot. How could staff possibly -not- be involved?"

Prisca queries, "Log thus far: https://ti-legacy.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=1801"

Ivar kind've agrees that  PC Bishop could totally do that, and it'd totally go up to a Baronial Council problem at which point said Bishop and said Noble would probably get annihilated.

Kinaed states, "I don't get how that's not exactly what I just said. I wrote you a note saying Farra couldn't arrest the Cardinal because you posted a plot talking about it and saying if it happened and you were unable to succeed, you were liquidating. I confirmed the GI not being able to arrest the Cardinal was a fundamental fact, you liquidated. Seems to all line up to me."

Iorel states, "Though much of my choice to liquidate also had to do with the condenscending and aggressive manner Kinaed's spoken to me over the past few months. I was a bit tired of it, and chose to remove myself from a position where I had to interact with staff on various plot, policy, etc. points."

Iorel declares to Kinaed, "I'll post the log of the plot advance and note you wrote on the boards in response to the OOC topic, so we can clear it up. In the meantime, I was busy playing Realm Royale, so gonna stop keeping friends waiting on that. Ciao! <3"

Iorel has left the game.

Kinaed says, "My neighbor was in a motorcycle accident, you started sending me tells while I was at work, I politelly told you I couldn't talk then, you said you wanted an answer before bed, I testily told ylu I couldn't, you told me you expected better or something like it and I lost my temper."

Kinaed states, "I am tired of being spoken about and treated in a nasty manner, but you still play my game."

Prisca questions, "Hmm. Alright. Well, moving on?"

Ivar shrugs, "Sounds more like - Farra didn't get her way so she had a bitchfit like she always does.

Niamh states, "Alright, lets not."

Kinaed nods.

Kinaed says, "I'll shut up."

Ivar says to Kinaed, "Sounds like that was for me, I'm sorry."

Temi trails off, "So, I think this is probably getting a bit off topic for an OOC chat.  There may be some lines crossed in understanding things.  The best learning here is that liquidations probably don't belong in with plots.  Hopefully we can get things sorted out and people content, but for now... we have topics"

Kinaed states, "I'm still in wake up phase."

Temi states, "Back to this submitted topic:  Unlike every other weapon class, daggers have a very real RL function as a secondary weapon in traditional combat styles. I was wondering if, when dual wielding two daggers, the damage penalties might be removed to allow characters the image fantasy of operating with that kind of combat style. Note that this would simply allow a character to dual wield daggers and receive the same advantages as wielding just a single dagger and no secondary weapon. Damage nerfs when wielding seperate weapon types makes sense, as does not removing the penalty when using two of the other types of weapons, as all of those can suggest much larger, more cumbersome weapons."

Ivar wonders, "How does dual wielding work, exactly?"

Prisca states, "I don't mind daggers getting a pass on the penalty."

Ivar wonders, "Does it attack with both weapons at once normally?"

Lethanavir wonders, "Is that essentially buffing dual wielding daggers?"

Temi states, "You can attack with either your main hand weapon or your off hand weapon, and there's a penalty for dual wielding, but you have more flexibility in distances and defenses"

Theia states, "So this is something for say"

Theia claims, "Whips mainhand Dagger offhand"

Theia claims, "You have range for main, and dagger for off."

Prisca says to Ivar, "Dual wielding lets you attack with one, or the other. it helps make up for differences in range, or overcome defensive styles. but wielding two incurs a penalty for both, more on the off-hand than the main"

Temi wonders, "I assume the only point to this would be for people who think it seems cool to dual wield daggers, but it doesn't actually have any benefit?"

Theia states, "Which is really well suited and something doable. But keep in mind if you intended to use a shield for block, you can't do it"

Prisca nods at Temi.

Empena states, "I'm torn on this because dual wielding knives can quickly become sort of trope like."

Theia states, "No worse than dual wielding swords"

Prisca claims, "I don't mind tropes."

Lethanavir states, "The only reason why I haven't been daul wielding my knives is because of th penaltyas I thought it wouldn't really be benefitial."

Theia states, "Maybe have a throwing dagger in the off hand and normal dagger in main haand"

Prisca begins to feel a bit drowsy, and her energy flags.

Prisca says, "A little off the topic, but there's a few small adjustments I'd enjoy for the combat code- one allowing shields to be used with two-handed weapons. Currently can't do a shield and spear, which is like the most basic of basic classical fighting styles"

Lethanavir states, "I have all the throwing knives"

Temi queries, "I don't know if it seems needed for a cosmetic thing, and it does seem counter to understanding how dual wield is set up now.  Would it make people rather happy?"

Prisca says, "And block could use some love, almost no one uses it because of its limitations, and it doesn't have particularly great strengths"

Theia says, "We need some boosts to shields and blocking. But that's because I wanna see a knight with a sword and shield"

Ivar queries, "What's Block's limitations?"

Theia claims, "Not a warhammer"

Ivar says, "Because I use it currently"

Prisca says, "Back on topic though- yes, doesn't seem like an urgent change is needed, but I'd be for the penalty for the main-hand dagger when two are being used being removed"

Ivar states, "Wait wait, you can't use shield and sword? When'd that change? Maxwell used to do that where he had a trident."

Temi claims, "You certainly should be able to"

Ivar claims, "Erm, shield and spear"

Vlora states, "My retainer dos-"

Prisca states, "Spears are two-handed afaik"

I see nothing like that in the kit.

Temi states, "Well, I'll put that on the list to discuss it."

Theia trails off, "I want to see more Sword and Board knights is my thing..."

Vlora bares her sword.

Temi says, "Going on to other topics, since we're already run over."

Theia claims, "Maybe buff block a bit."

Niamh nods very seriously at Vlora. 

Vlora sheathes her sword.

Temi questions, "Yeto, you had a topic?"

Yeto says, "Yep"

Ivar states, "Well, I use shield and axe because I <3 the viking look."

Yeto begins to move west.

Yeto slows to a halt.

Yeto questions, "Can we maybe review the support changes again? I feel like the issue was likely isolated and abused by a few players, and not the game as a whole. It's sort of a pain in the ass for everybody else to have to sometimes wait upwards of 2 days to see if support is going through, and it makes RP awkward when people are expecting mutual support trades and the timing is off. Can we either remove the queue again, or maybe make it an account flag so troublesome players require rview, but the rest of us don't have to have such a botched experience?"

Yeto says, "I also imagine Staff don't need another board to constantly monitor"

Niamh says, "Bah, I'm sorry it's had such delays on it. I thought I'd been processing the queue once a day."

Temi muses, "I haven't seen any sitting around in the queue.  Have people had issues with getting things approved quickly?"

Lethanavir claims, "I had I think"

Theia claims, "I mean... I supported the GI... RP'd with her the next day and she asked for Support again and I was like "Already did." and the following day I got the ping saying the support went through"

Kinaed states, "Support is only recalced at midnight anyway for the day."

Lethanavir nods to Theia, "Mine was the same I think"

Niamh says, "Hmmm."

Theia says, "Took two full days for my support to hit. I've heard other people having the same issue of it taking two days at least"

Niamh nods at Theia.

Theia says, "Before the change went in, I supported Marossa as my 2nd GL and it went through instantly"

Theia states, "I didn't even realize the change had happened"

Theia says, "Until the thing with the GI"

Lethanavir says, "Same here"

Empena states, "I admit I'm bothered when things get more difficult for everyone based on someone doing something that sounds rule breaking. It feels like some of this stuff should be addressed with specific people."

Theia claims, "Address it with the rule breakers and if they can't be trusted with it, punish them for it."

Theia states, "That's my feelings on it."

Temi states, "I also am uncomfortable with people nagging for support based on their metric not imediately reflecting it"

Theia says, "Break a rule, get a warning. Break it again, get punished because you got your warning."

Empena claims, "People will nag more now that going forward not being Entrenched might mean instantly losing their job."

Ivar states, "Doesn't really feel like 2 days is much to wait for for me."

Ivar claims, "Support rolls over once a week."

Yeto states, "I never really had that issue prior to the change. I feel one hundred percent comfortable telling that player or alerting staff if somebody were being overly aggressive with it. It just seems like a needless extra step for 98 percent of the people who aren't breaking any policy."

Theia states, "The issue is Ivar. If you support someone on Saturday, and 2 days later on Monday(after reset) you missed getting the influence proc"

Prisca states, "I mean, I can understand where some GLs would be nervous about not getting their support sooner. Though we don't even have a Seneschal at the moment so it's not a problem yet."

Theia says, "Because of it"

Temi says, "I have noticed it seems like people are putting more thought into it, though"

Ivar wonders, "Then have it done before Saturday?"

Temi says, "It has helped address the perfunctory supports"

Ivar says, "Support shouldn't really feel like an immediate shift to me. Seems more like something that would build up with work. Once you get it managed, and cultivate relationships properly, your support isn't gonna swing much."

Prisca nods at Ivar.

Theia states, "Maybe instead of doing an immediate benefit, once you support someone, 1 day later"

Temi claims, "Okay, well, moving along then.  We may discuss is further, but I think it's working how we want it to now"

Temi questions, "Theia, you had a topic?"

Theia says, "So the topic I have is one that I think has been brought up before but never acknowledged or done anything with. Can we get an RPXP boost for everyone in the room when there is a Physician treating someone that has healed someone or treated an injury? I know that the Troubadour's have playing music and it helps boost RP they have available to them because people want to be around a Bard playing for that little boost. Can we get that for Physicians too? We want RP just like everyone else... If I am treating someone in the Triage then it would be nice if those who aren't being treated or are waiting to be treated, get a boost for RPing with the rest of us."

Ivar wonders, "Are Physicians having much trouble finding RP currently?"

Theia claims, "Occasionally. People came in the other day because we had a bard playing music to soothe patients."

Yeto claims, "Physician RP is just really frontloaded"

Yeto states, "You get RP at point of contact, then it dies pretty quick after."

Safir claims, "I've been getting more physician RP and not less, thanks to all the wilderness injuries.  "

Empena states, "Its not about finding RP, but people finding a benefit in a longer scene after they get code treated."

Niamh twirls with Safir. 

Vlora claims, "Yeah those badgers have sharp teeth. "

Temi nods.

Theia says, "If you come in injured and I tend your injuries, there's nothing to do with a longer scene, you leave immediately."

Niamh has lost link.
Niamh has reconnected.

Temi states, "I don't know if an RPXP bonus is the right way to handle that"

Lethanavir says, "I could try and get mauled by boa- I mean come by the hospital for you guys."

Theia muses, "Can I ask why a Troubadour getting the boost for playing music is a way to handle something but physicians doing their job isn't...? Or if not that then what is the better way to handle it?"

Theia queries, "I'm not sure?"

Niamh ponders.

Temi says, "It can't be the way to handle everything or none of it makes any difference"

Theia claims, "I pose it as every 3 spots healed on someone, I make a pose"

Theia states, "So it lasts longer"

Safir claims, "I think partially that can be handled with how you RP the scene and when you actually code treat."

Temi says, "And the current system is getting people to come to you, just not to linger."

Prisca claims, "I do get OOC grumbles about hospital RP all the time, which makes me kind of sad. It would be nice if there were some sort of bonus."

Empena says, "It encourages people to seek out different people and RP."

Theia states, "Yea.. that's kinda the issue. They don't linger. They get what they want and leave... I'm not a merchant. :/"

Empena wonders, "Maybe a weekly bonus like cnotes?"

Theia claims, "As has been brought to my attention ICly more than once."

Yeto states, "Could focus on incentives for elongated stays? Most of the complaints I see are people getting bored if they should ICly be in a recovery ward for a few days or whatever."

Vlora claims, "I've seen it depend really, as when a character gets injured through a story arc or something dramatic. Usually, in my case at least, you remain at the madison to play it out as much as you can- but if a wolf just gnaws your arm off or something small like that, then it's hard to play that out as something big every time it happens."

Yeto says, "But that might just be suffering through RP just to get the bonus, so might not work"

Vlora says, "Not really a solution or idea there, just some illumination."

Temi says, "I think people will generally stay in RP if they are enjoying it, but I don't know if there's a way we can make physician RP more enjoyable specifically"

Safir states, "I don't think that's what she's talking about.  I've had scenes in the past where I'm RPing healing someone, I do a pose saying I'm starting to put leeches out, fully code treat them to get that out of the way because the POLCA is obnoxious, and they want to poof out of there and get back to whatever it was they were doing even though we haven't RP'd out the full treatment.  "

Vlora states, "Oh, well. That's something else then, ignore me. "

Temi nods at Safir.

Empena claims, "It might be just a respect thing."

Vlora states, "That does seem incredibly rude on part of the player who does that"

Prisca claims, "I always save the last treatment spot for when I'm done treating to avoid that myself."

Theia claims, "Which means... We lose RP as Physicians."

Safir claims, "Is there a way to receive tells during the POLCA?  I prefer to keep it going while the scene is going, but I get automatic (r) notifications now and then have to replay and then respond to people whenever I am treating. "

Theia trails off, "Yay..."

Theia says, "I've had a patient send me a tell."

Safir says to Prisca, "Right, I started doing that myself, and it has been less of an issue, but I could see the types of players that do that feel like you're holding them hostage."

Theia states, "Asking why I finished treating without RPing, I told him it's because I wanted it off my screen and I 'am' posing"

Theia claims, "Two poses later, he left"

Theia asks, "Because he was done and I was like "uh... right... thanks for stopping by?""

Theia states, "Having the RPXP boost would cause the RP'er to linger at least a bit more."

Prisca claims, "Yes, the lack of tells in a POLCA really sucks when treating"

Theia states, "If nothing else and it doesn't help it's something that can be removed later."

Prisca queries, "I heard it's being worked on?"

Theia states, "If it does help then at least we found a way to help the issue."

Niamh states, "I -think- there's a thing on the bugs board to remove that for players."

Niamh claims, "Make it a toggle at least."

Prisca nods.

Temi nods at Niamh.

Temi states, "Yeah, that seems right"

Empena states, "Think about how people linger after a pyring for no reason but the fain."

Empena says, "Gain"

Temi says, "I don't think we can add something like that and then just remove it later."

Temi states, "It's much easier to add things than remove them from player opinion point of view"

Niamh says, "It was added by Niamh request because I'd get spammed to oblivion with tells while in an editor and it was super rough to stay scrolled up high enough to know what I was doing, but it isn't as ideal for players."

Niamh says, "The tells thing that is."

Niamh states, "Not the other thing."

Temi nods at Niamh.

Safir muses, "Couldn't you just go deaf or block tells? "

Niamh claims, "Could, but then I wouldn't know what people wanted when I left the editor."

Vlora begins to count their money.

Temi claims, "It's different ways of handling things, different for different people."

Prisca says, "Hmm, I thought they could go to the tell log"

Niamh nods.

Temi says, "We figure other people may like it like Niamh does"

Niamh claims, "They do right now. Not when you're deaf, though."

Temi claims, "But others don't, so we're going to make it a switch"

Prisca nods.

Temi questions, "Anyway, moving on.  Empena, you had something?"

Theia claims, "Thanks for derailing... yay for more topics."

Empena claims, "I have a concern where we seem to be angling to put such an emphasis on player nobles as a lynchpin to various things when in the year and a half I've played they have not been particularly an active part of our population. And further, we seem to have conflicting info where ... we are addressing and advertising brand new players to come be GLs or nobles rather than fill in the bottom tiers of society we are really lacking. And I don't know how that matches up with thoughts on the forums about how people without proper RPXP shouldn't be making concepts they can't afford. I feel like having people unfamiliar with our theme or game making those roles is going to cause difficulties. That may be we should focus on why current players aren't taking those roles before we advert them."

Temi says, "We think player nobles are definitely important, and it has been hard to get them hooked in and a part of the game in an ongoing manner."

Temi says, "We've made some adjustments which we hope will make that easier for them."

Kinaed states, "I don't see the bottom tier of society as lacking at the moment."

Empena asks, "Which seemed to happen when Court closed, was the problem before not coded power?"

Kinaed claims, "No"

Kinaed says, "It qas the plots were too big for staff to run and manage given our availability"

Theia claims, "Um... question about this."

Lethanavir states, "If anything, I think we lack nobles"

Temi claims, "I don't think we are suggesting brand new players should be nobles or GLs, though if they are up for the challenge of learning quickly, we don't think being new precludes them, and fresh blood can help."

Theia says, "Nobles are supposed to be a key part of society right? The uppercrust and whatnot."

Lilikoi is idle.

Temi nods at Theia.

Theia queries, "If someone who is new without knowledge of Lore and how the game works... they shouldn't be a key part of society should they?"

Lilikoi is no longer idle.

Lilikoi has returned from AFK.

Lethanavir says, "We have plenty of the bottom teir characters of society, I've just noticed not many nobles around."

Kinaed states, "I do not mind new players in those roles, though I know my feelins are controversial. I don't favor new players for it, but I think most people settle in relatively quickly and I won't discriminate against new players if they're up for the challenge."

Kinaed nods at Lethanavir.

Theia says, "Like... If New Player A joins in as a Noble of Vandagan, comes in as a super pale 'pure blooded' vandagan who is that way because of course russians are super white, and he has purple eyes without being a mage."

Theia asks, "What do we do with him?"

Theia queries, "Be nice because he's new?"

Theia asks, "Burn him because he's a mage?"

Niamh claims, "Give him a cyan warning via the warning command, probably."

Kinaed claims, "They don't pass applications."

Lethanavir trails off, "Like at all...nobles hardly exist and interact with the common rabble"

Ivar sneezes loudly.

Kinaed nods at Niamh.

Temi claims, "We still do applications and help get these things set up."

Niamh claims to Ivar, "LORD BLESS."

Kinaed says, "Meanwhile, a cyan warning is just fine."

Vlora sneezes even louder

Niamh states to Vlora, "LORD BLESS."

Theia trails off, "Erm... we have one on grid already"

Theia states, "He made it past"

Safir sneezes in Vlora's eye. 

Theia says, "But that's beside the point here."

Vlora dies

Vlora sits down on the ground.

Niamh muses, "Wait, what? We have a noble with purple eyes?"

Theia says, "White skin pure blood vandagan"

Lethanavir trails off, "No more sneezing...gives me ptsd just thinking about the knife incident"

Theia questions, "Refresh my memory... what was the helpfile for Vandagans?"

Temi states, "That has nothing to do with new players."

Empena says, "In my experience people who aren't familiar end up super pushing a respect my authority as their main if only RP hook, and that's honestly hard to play off."

Niamh declares, "Ahhh. I think it's fine for people to say they're one thing but appear to be something else. Hell, start a rumor about them. "This guy's not even a blooded Vandagan!""

Kinaed nods at Niamh.

Theia trails off, "But the other point remains... Can we make it so that if a new player wants to apply in, they and all nobles for that matter have to answer basic questions in helpfiles about their race and area"

Kinaed states, "I imagine there's an explanation."

Theia asks, "To make sure they know the theme and lore?"

Niamh states, "I'd prefer that for roles like GI over a noble, but it'd be nice across the board for potent roles."

Empena states, "Personally I feel something that would help there is nobles not coming in with their titles but earning them via the projects."

Kinaed says, "Pretty sure we have no new player nobles atm, so if that is a problem, it's not due to being a newbie."

Theia says, "I don't mind a new person applying to be a noble. If they read all the files that goes with it and can prove they know what they are doing."

Theia claims, "I don't mind anyone being a noble really."

Niamh nods.

Theia claims, "But they gotta know what they're talking about."

Ivar states, "I dislike new nobles not coming in with their titles."

Ivar states, "Titles are largely inherited"

Niamh states, "Right, that'd be silly."

Temi nods.

Lethanavir claims, "I need more nobles to piss off. I only interact with one"

Temi says, "I think it would be anti-thematic to have nobs earning titles."

Theia says, "And he's perpetually pissed off at you."

Temi claims, "At least as the usual method"

Vlora declares, "You can always throw some apples at the Knights and see what happens!"

Niamh nods at Vlora.

Ivar claims, "The reason Nobility haven't had a larger role in the game until now is because a lot of players either don't have a grasp on how to politic properly with one or they haven't had a lot of stuff to really support that politicing"

Kinaed questions, "What's this about titles?"

Niamh says, "It's the best way to make friends with the Knights. Throw fruit."

Ivar says, "The new changes are sort of fixing that for them, because ultimately Nobility really should be the most powerful characters in the game"
Prisca wields a canister of fat, writhing leeches.
Prisca's skill with a canister of fat, writhing leeches is adequate.

Vlora claims, "Sometimes we get hangry"

Theia says, "The only earning of titles I see being thematic is with marriage unless you rise up and overthrow a dictator noble."

Empena states, "They are inherited from NPCs, not everyone needs to start with their entire family dead."

Lethanavir searches for edwin

Safir gets a pomegranate from a thick, coarse linen satchel, fit with wide leather straps.

Vlora stands up.

Vlora scans the area, looking for somewhere to hide.

Vlora edges towards her chosen hiding spot.

Safir flips a pomegranate, arcing it gracefully towards Vlora.

Flipping end over end, a pomegranate sails towards Vlora.

Vlora catches a pomegranate, snatching it from the air.

Kinaed claims, "Oh, heirs."

Lethanavir finds an apple
Vlora reaches her position.

Niamh says, "Few do. They start with whoever had the title before them out of the way."

Vlora conceals herself as best as possible.

Vlora moves suddenly, revealing her position.

Niamh claims, "STOP HIDING VLORA."

Vlora flips a pomegranate into the air, and catches it as it begins its descent.

Ivar says, "Have seen many a noble who had brothers and sisters, etc, running around."

Kinaed says, "The problem with this topic... is that if we clearly explain for example, that Jedi aren't allowed on TI via player app, we've just told you Bob isn't a Jedi."

Prisca has thrown her last dagger!
Prisca hefts a canister of fat, writhing leeches, weighing it carefully, then flings it at Niamh! [Throw]
  Prisca lightly hits Niamh's head!  
  Prisca throws a canister of fat, writhing leeches at Niamh!   Niamh catches Prisca's badly thrown a canister of fat, writhing leeches! 
Niamh has been mauled.

Niamh laughs.

NEW COMBAT ROUND!
Prisca is still engaged in combat.

Niamh says, "HEY."

Prisca is not wielding a weapon!
Prisca is not wielding an offhand weapon!

Niamh claims, "Prisca is a monster."

Ivar states, "Say omg Prisca"

Vlora states, "Oh shit"

Niamh gives a canister of fat, writhing leeches to Prisca.

Ivar says, "SO MEAN"

Niamh says, "Omg she mauled me."
Temi nods at Kinaed.

Lethanavir trails off, "Wow...thats even worse than the throwing 'lesson'"

Niamh claims, "Probably the best course of action is to try to take irregularities as IC regularities."

Kinaed states, "The issue you're perceiving isn't due to newbies. I don't see much value in making a whole thing to deal with new players not knowing theme when that's not the issue."

Ivar claims, "Only issue I've ever had with noble characters is a lot of them not really having good reasons for being in Lithmore as opposed to stewarding their lands."

Kinaed nods at Niamh.

Kinaed claims, "And if something really scares you, request board staff confirm if it's IC or just a theme misunderstanding."

Niamh states, "The less we're scouring through helpfiles trying to prove why X or Y player isn't doing it right the better. If they have something unusual or weird about them, assume it's an IC weird or unusual thing, and RP."

Kinaed nods at Ivar.

Kinaed nods at Niamh.

Lethanavir states, "I don't know how to solve the problem about not having many nobles but I can confirm that we need more. Too many commoners"

Niamh claims, "Unless it's policy. If policy send_to_char(kinaed,"halp")"

Temi says, "We do hope that the recent changes will help with that."

Kinaed says, "Yeah, respecting people's RP choices is a good baseline to start from."

Vlora eats a pomegranate.

Ivar has considered a Noble, but he sort've just liquidated to get out of high profile stuff, so...

Theia asks, "So... Blonde pale Farin is go?"

Niamh says, "Sure. It's weird IC, so act like it IC."

Ivar claims to Theia, "Pale white Farin that bruises easily and has golden blonde hair."

Niamh claims, "Meanwhile, Vlora eats a Freeman's monthly income in fruit."

Lethanavir questions, "Anymore topics?"

Vlora states, "Knights are swag"

Ivar says to Theia, "Who's mother just so happens to have a lithmorran Chevalier."

Temi says, "Okay, one final topic, since we are waaay over"

Temi asks, "Prisca, you had a short thing?"

Prisca queries, "Since we're way over time, we can drop my topic. It's already on the ideas board on the forum. Feel free to comment on it there, and I might bring it up at next week's chat. https://ti-legacy.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=1800 "

Niamh trails off to Prisca, "OoOoOOooo..."

Ivar states to Niamh, "Her butt needs it :("

Theia muses, "Didn't we have someone with a second topic?"

Temi states, "Okay.  Let's go ahead and wrap up then."

Ivar claims to Niamh, "You don't maintain that kind of booty without eating a freeman's income in fruit."

Prisca says to Theia, "My second topic got brought up earlier"

Prisca exclaims, "All good. See you in RP!"

Vlora claims, "I'll crush your head between my thighs Ivar"

Kinaed waves.

Prisca waves.

Lethanavir goes to bed

Theia says, "So. Before we go."

Kinaed claims, "Have a good week, everyone."

Theia says, "Clarification. I can make a noble and be a jerk."

Theia wonders, "And people gotta deal with it?"

Lethanavir says, "Good"

Ivar says to Vlora, "Are you flirting with me"

Ivar claims to Vlora, "Because that sounds like a hillman mating call"

Vlora bares her sword.

Ivar pontificates, "And my axe!"

Ivar unfastens his axe.

Ivar fastens his axe on his belt.

Niamh claims, "Yep, that's a good summary. "Deal with it" could mean just about anything IC. Such as putting poison into the their tea."

Niamh says, "Stabbing them in the neck with a knife."

Niamh states, "Etc."

Theia says, "Sounds accurate."

Temi says to Theia, "If you make a noble, and are ICly a jerk, people should deal with it.  If you're OOCly a jerk, just don't."

Niamh nods at Temi.

Prisca states, "Tossing leeches at their head."

Theia says, "Yea."

Niamh states to Prisca, "YEAH."

Theia claims, "But i'm lovely OOC"

Theia states, "Ask anyoone"

Lethanavir says, "YEEEAH"

Vlora states, "Could you make the Knights some leech jars Prisca? They seem like potent weapons."

Lethanavir says, "Plz give me nobles"

Kinaed says, "Just make fun of them."

Kinaed states to Lethanavir, "Apps are open, I think."

Niamh claims to Vlora, "She wrecked me. Half my health in one throw"

Prisca nods in agreement with Vlora.

Theia says, "So... Whipping noble 2.0 is a go."

Ivar claims, "Dem leeches will suck the taint out of you"

Vlora says, "Absolute unit"

Ivar states, "I bet Niamh is just very tainted :("

Empena asks, "Can we get a list of the active nobility? Like guildlist nobles?"

Temi pontificates, "Okay, sending folks back then!"

Lethanavir claims, "Hit me daddy"

[chronodbu]

You're absolutely wrong about no GL PC's voicing approval of Roland. Please don't make these assumptions or try to make people think otherwise through OOC means.

As for Kinaed's handling, I don't really see anywhere in her message that felt pressuring and/or condescending. She acted fairly respectful, told you exactly how it was, and even went so far as to be generally cool about it. Don't really see where the animosity is coming from.

[The_Last_Good_Dragon]

You're absolutely wrong about no GL PC's voicing approval of Roland. Please don't make these assumptions or try to make people think otherwise through OOC means.

As for Kinaed's handling, I don't really see anywhere in her message that felt pressuring and/or condescending. She acted fairly respectful, told you exactly how it was, and even went so far as to be generally cool about it. Don't really see where the animosity is coming from.

I edit'd the post to indicate that none had spoken out in favor of Roland where Farra could hear it (and she could hear a lot!). And it's absolutely fine to have differing opinions, though I'd have thought Ivar would have remembered the advice he preached repeatedly over the past few weeks about not bashing other players OOCly.

[chronodbu]

You're absolutely wrong about no GL PC's voicing approval of Roland. Please don't make these assumptions or try to make people think otherwise through OOC means.

As for Kinaed's handling, I don't really see anywhere in her message that felt pressuring and/or condescending. She acted fairly respectful, told you exactly how it was, and even went so far as to be generally cool about it. Don't really see where the animosity is coming from.

I edit'd the post to indicate that none had spoken out in favor of Roland where Farra could hear it (and she could hear a lot!). And it's absolutely fine to have differing opinions, though I'd have thought Ivar would have remembered the advice he preached repeatedly over the past few weeks about not bashing other players OOCly.

You're right. It's not a good thing to do. Especially as the one who preached about the constant slagging off of other players OOC the most, I shouldn't have said what I did about you during the meeting. I apologize.

[The_Last_Good_Dragon]

I'd also like to quickly clarify, since I think I failed to do so in the above: Staff did not pressure me into liquidating, and it was fully my choice. Some frustrations with the plot obviously led me to this, but I'm not going to get into them — I'm fine with staff making the decisions they think are best regarding theme and the way that they handle their plots; there is no strictly "right" or "wrong" way to do it. Prisca mentions that she heard of some OOC pressure/frustration involving the scene of the Order breaking up Roland's coronation: those frustrations stemmed entirely in something on me and Vlora's end (we didn't see an NPC present in the room) and once we realized this those frustrations evaporated as they were clearly based only in our own mistake, however I take real exception to being labeled as someone "trying to Hog the Plot" or "only out to win" — those are unkind things to say about anybody, and also don't represent the full extent of my frustrations in communications.

[Kinaed]

In Staff eyes, raising liquidation as an outcome if certain plot results are not obtained reads like a strong arm tactic. In my view, I told Farra this directly and privately, trying to be as polite about it as possible. As I understand it, my raising the point for discussion was in itself viewed as an affront. I cannot help how this is perceived or how a player chooses to act based on their perceptions, but I personally do not believe I was condescending.

From what I gather, this then turned into rumors circulating about me pressuring Farra about Roland or trying to force her to do things ICly.

This is frustrating. I can't legitimately post the logs the way Farra did without being open to people feeling as if Staff are willing to violate their trust. I actually feel weird, if relieved, that Farra herself did.

All of this aside, I would like to take three points out of this for the pbase in general:

1) Tone is in the eye of the beholder. We may not come across as we expect or intend.

2) Describing any 'negative consequences' such as quitting, liquidating, etc, as the result of not achieving a desired result in a plot will probably be viewed poorly by staff.

3) If you hear a rumor about anyone, please remember it is a rumor and things have probably distorted in one way or another. If nothing else, it is one perception of a story. There's at least one more because no one believes they are evil.

Bluntly, last week was very bad for me. I was worried that a friend of mine was dead or dying with no news for several hours, and I was at work as a PM trying to handle a major project issue, unable to get ahold of senior management. When Farra started making public announcements about liquidation, I also had Request Board messages and tells begin to pour in, and some of them were quite demanding and accusatory, seemingly already decided that Staff were guilty of some offense - trial by rumor mill.

At that point, my ability to be kind, respectful and polite to what I perceived as unnecessary drama cracked. I snapped at Farra for wanting decisions and answers *right now*.

So, that's my view and what I'd like people to consider, thank you for your time in reading it.

[Geras]

I'll confess I haven't been following the succession plot as closely as I could or should.

I think the confusion over tone and the RL circumstances involved is pretty understandable and I hope no one holds any grudges over that. Leaving that aside...

I think the core issue here is that we have staff with the best intentions trying create a plot for everyone to engage in, but the nature of that plot unfortunately strikes at the core of some characters. And I think it's reasonable to be upset when a staff plot pushes your char into a corner - which I think was the effect here even if it wasn't the intent.

May I make two suggestions to prevent this in the future?

1) Can we have an IC meeting from the Great Lords re-instituting something like the Witan? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witenagemot) It would I think make these succession/regency quests more easily thematic without ruffling as many feathers or pushing beserk buttons for as may chars. It would simply mean that the succession would always and naturally be in question whenever there's a change in monarch. If we're going to treat Lithmore as an elective rather than hereditary monarchy, then let's incorporate that into the game more whole heartedly. In that case Roland's candidacy would have been treated as just that - an announcement of candidacy.

2) In general, for plots that may affect a guild's RP in a major way, could the leaders of said guild be consulted beforehand? Implicating the Order in potentially starting a civil war is not a small thing, and the liquidation of the Order GL is an anticipatable consequence of that. You say you felt like the warning of liquidation came of as a strong arm tactic. Respectfully, I disagree, and I think it would have benefited everyone to have had the consequences of this plot direction had this now in hindsight obvious consequence of the plot direction been identified proactively. Shit happens, but let's not let it happen again.

I also want to just take a moment and remark on something that I think is quite remarkable, which is the amount of loyalty the players behind the Samael dynasty managed to create for it. This is an in-game institution entirely created by Tobin and Cellan's players through their skilled RP, so cheers to both of them and many others behind and supporting this institution is in order I think.