Log of OOC Meeting 2018-06-23

[Taunya]

Good suggestions!

I'm glad this was allowed to air out rather than fester, so we can learn from it and move on.

I don't think it was Farra's intention to strong-arm anything, but I can understand how it could be interpreted that way.
Repercussions if an advance fails can be RPed out ICly. They don't need to be guessed at and mentioned in the plot advance, and probably shouldn't. From help plot, an advance is what you are doing, looking at, trying to accomplish.
In the interest of time, it might not be a bad idea to add a "If x doesn't succeed, y will be tried." but specific outcomes should be left to who processes the advance.
This isn't aimed at Farra specifically, but just for anyone writing an advance. I'm still getting used to writing advances myself, so I've been guilty of it before I'm sure.

Likewise, attempts at things like trying to arrest the Cardinal don't have to be stated OOCly that you can't do that. Let it fail ICly, and let things fall where they fall. Perhaps there's even times you might let it succeed; NPCs can be replaced with other NPCs quickly enough.

But for the important takeaway from the meeting- can we take a moment to acknowledge how awesome leeches are?

[Voxumo]

I'll confess I haven't been following the succession plot as closely as I could or should.

I think the confusion over tone and the RL circumstances involved is pretty understandable and I hope no one holds any grudges over that. Leaving that aside...

I think the core issue here is that we have staff with the best intentions trying create a plot for everyone to engage in, but the nature of that plot unfortunately strikes at the core of some characters. And I think it's reasonable to be upset when a staff plot pushes your char into a corner - which I think was the effect here even if it wasn't the intent.

May I make two suggestions to prevent this in the future?

1) Can we have an IC meeting from the Great Lords re-instituting something like the Witan? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witenagemot) It would I think make these succession/regency quests more easily thematic without ruffling as many feathers or pushing beserk buttons for as may chars. It would simply mean that the succession would always and naturally be in question whenever there's a change in monarch. If we're going to treat Lithmore as an elective rather than hereditary monarchy, then let's incorporate that into the game more whole heartedly. In that case Roland's candidacy would have been treated as just that - an announcement of candidacy.

2) In general, for plots that may affect a guild's RP in a major way, could the leaders of said guild be consulted beforehand? Implicating the Order in potentially starting a civil war is not a small thing, and the liquidation of the Order GL is an anticipatable consequence of that. You say you felt like the warning of liquidation came of as a strong arm tactic. Respectfully, I disagree, and I think it would have benefited everyone to have had the consequences of this plot direction had this now in hindsight obvious consequence of the plot direction been identified proactively. Shit happens, but let's not let it happen again.

I also want to just take a moment and remark on something that I think is quite remarkable, which is the amount of loyalty the players behind the Samael dynasty managed to create for it. This is an in-game institution entirely created by Tobin and Cellan's players through their skilled RP, so cheers to both of them and many others behind and supporting this institution is in order I think.

This isn't another succession plot Geras, because with that plot any who could have laid claim to the throne by right of blood died, so it very much so was anybody's claim, this is not the case here, as Caitrin, daughter of Cellan, was murdered, and by all rights the throne should have gone to Celeste, but you have a random Noble popping up saying they have harmon blood, which is unlikely since ya know everyone with harmon blood up and died.

Also I have no idea where the idea lithmore is an elective came from, as it's always very clearly been a hereditary monarchy, aside from the one rare case where there was no blood relatives alive to take the throne. Roland's claim to the throne should be, and has been, treated as an anomaly, as it is.

Regarding your second point, I have to respectfully disagree, Liquidation is a completely ooc action, it is not the result of rp given the nature in which liquidation occurs, as it is something has to be requested from staff, versus something that occurs naturally as the result of rp, such as being hung for crimes, or killed by another character. And I very much do see it as a strong arm tactic, given it was included in the plot advance as a result of what would happen if their intended outcome did not occur. Just including it in the note was unnecessary, and what should have done is the plot advance went through as normal, and when the outcome occurred, they should have then made their intent to liquidate known, instead of including it in the plot advance. Why did it even need to be in plot advance in the first place? It served no other purpose than to act as a deterrent.


Also I don't feel we should be praising Tobin or Cellan for this... I doubt there are many characters alive who even remember either character, likely even not that many players who remember the characters. The loyalty likely stems from just how horrible of a choice Roland is icly, or at least how Roland has portrayed himself. Like I get the sentiment, but both characters have been gone for quite sometime, and should not be given credit for actions they've had nothing to do with.

[Niamh]

RE: Geras

I don't think (hope!) that anyone is holding grudges. Wouldn't worry too much about that. I haven't known the player who spurred the discussion to be a grudge-holding type, and I haven't known the folks on Staff to be grudge-holders either.

To address the points...

I actually think it's pretty ideal for a plot or story to strike at the core of its participants. Thankfully though, nobody - especially not the Order GLs - has been involved against their will. A lot of people got the plot-launching letter, but only a few chose to respond, let alone continue to engage with it even if it meant occasionally dropping an elbow into the faces of other characters to get to the forefront. We were actually pretty surprised by how forcefully this was grabbed onto and absorbed by the Order, when it was geared from the get-go as more of a secular plotline. There's nothing at all wrong with the Order taking the reins, but I couldn't say they were expected to do so in any meaningful capacity. They did anyway, but that's because they're badasses and took it, not because they had it crammed down their throats against their will.

The witenagemot is a cool idea to consider modeling something after for future situations, maybe down the road, as there have been two situations now where the last known surviving member of a royal bloodline has died and the Kingdom gone pear-shaped. Happened when Charmaine died, as she was the last of the royal line, and is happening now with Caitrin dead, as she was the last of Tobin's line (among other causes, of course... *coughs*). Something like the witenagemot set-up could be AMAZING for a tumultuous game landscape every few IC decades, like just as a baseline expectation. I don't know if it gels with TI's theme right now, but that doesn't mean it can't ever. It'd be a great concept to keep in the backs of our minds, especially as things develop.

More on the topic of the current plot, my perception has been that the main issue we've run into is headbutting between Staff and a few players on what the theme on TI is. The theme is how Staff designed and continue to design it, so when we lay it out in straightforward terms to keep interested parties on the same page it becomes frustrating for "I disagree with your reality and choose my own" to be the option taken. It's not fun on the player end either, as should they continue to behave contrary to the IC reality they typically run into IC problems (though really only when it's so significant a thing that NPC reaction is tapped via plot advance, and/or other players with some IC authority decide to call them on it).

We get frustrated, they get frustrated, so on and so forth until it's frustration all around. And it always feels kinda unnecessary.

In my mind the solution to this particular problem is to stop butting heads. It might sometimes be a jagged pill to swallow, but it does have to be accepted that while we love, love, love ideas and input, when we explain that X or Y is the expectation on how the theme and setting works within the context of our own little world, it literally is how it works. It's definitely fine to disagree IC or even OOC, but it's healthy to remember that should it rise to the level that NPCs are tapped for responses, the way we outlined it works will still be how it works. By all means and then some make conflict over the way things are, rally against the status quo, etc., just don't do it unwittingly. That seems to be where the OOC hostilities start to burn.

I can definitely appreciate that other games set on medieval timelines, even at times swathes of real life history, will have rule sets and themes that don't match up with TI's setting. That's okay. We aren't attempting to match them. If there is ever any confusion on where and how we differ, I'd hope we have a good track record of explaining it in great (EXCESSIVE IN MY CASE) detail.

Lastly, including "I'll liquidate if this expectation isn't met" in a plot advance isn't ideal. I can't, however, imagine that it was Farra's intent to make it an ultimatum or threat. Something Kinaed said above applies in many ways to both sides of the discourse here: What people intend isn't always how it comes across. I tend to think it would be best if we all gave each other the benefit of the doubt wherever possible-- to Staff as well as from it. Nobody achieves anything by constantly suspecting foul motives.

Edit: Prisca is a monster who should have all her leeches destroyed

[The_Last_Good_Dragon]

I think it definitely feels as if the Order was expected to either back Roland or stay uninvolved from the start — when Farra, as the GI, sent a letter to the Cardinal offering her opinion and asking for the Church's stance, she was told that the Order should remain generally uninvolved. The Order didn't get heavily involved until after the death of Caitrin, though there was some discussion and plans made — once a murder happened, unsurprisingly, the Order took a more involved approach. This point — the Cardinal instructing the GI to more or less stay out of it — was the key component of the potential clash between Farra and the Cardinal that would have likely led to Farra being removed as GI. Throughout the plotline, the Cardinal was frequently brought up as a defendant or ally of Roland due to his Harmon blood, though it should be noted that nowhere in IC Lore — the Erra Pater or other Order books — does it even suggest that a Harmon must or should hold the Kingship. To this end, it felt forced; but, had Staff chosen to have the Cardinal flex its power then Farra likely would have called for efforts against the Cardinal. Kinaed's the one who mentions arresting him, as I never did in my plot advance, but that could have been enjoyable. That Kinaed — not for the first time since me becoming GI — accused me of just "playing to win" was not kind, and even worse was her accusing me and the Order of "hogging the RP". While Staff might have considered this to be a generally secular matter from the outset, the theme of Lithmore is such that no matter is ever truly entirely outside of the Order's oversight — it wasn't me who made Lawlessness a Sin, nor me who wrote 'show respect for the authority of the secular throne' in the Erra Pater, nor did I ever plan on having Roland kept in the Keep for an extended period of time.

But I will continue to maintain that staff validating Roland's Monarchial status as beyond Orderite control with an NPC of lesser rank than the PC GL is absurd in a game where they claim to stress player decision and player control. If a PC Bishop coronated a PC Noble and then Staff declared said noble beyond the thematic reach of the Order GL, players would flip a shit, esp. if that noble has the broad disfavor that Roland had. Points of theme had already been altered to favor Roland, and while staff has every right to do that I also felt like I couldn't continue to play the type of Grand Inquisitor that Farra — a noble — always was going to play without constantly facing the stress of wondering what decision or thematic point was going to be tweaked going forwards. What it boiled down to was this: would staff let the most powerful and influential current PC (the Grand Inquisitor, as there was no Seneschal) manage their thematic duty of investigating taint, or not and allow the position to pass to another character. They were content to allow the Grand Inquisitor to make this arrest, which I alerted them to ahead-of-time in several different ways, without ever once letting me know either ICly or OOCly that such an action wouldn't be really possible and the thematic consequences would only be embarassing. I felt it would be unfair to not alert them to the consequence of the action ahead of time, and for all I'm accused of "throwing a bitchfit" now because I "didn't get my way" by making my opinion plain from the outset, I think it'd be doubly worse if I had just been secretive and quiet about the whole thing.

Staff certainly can't say that they were unaware of some frustrations over the plot; earlier, after the death of the 3 Vavardi nobles and the liquidation of Steven, myself and two other GLs voiced some small complaints on the plot that we hoped could be improved going forwards. Rather than engage in a meaningful discourse, the answer I got back was pretty much "No, none of your opinions are valid, it's insulting that you even brought them up, and you're only grumpy because you talk about this plot OOCly to your friends." The consistent lack of interest in communally discussing theme, player-staff interaction, or the role of GLs in the game led me to remove myself from all of those kinds of discussions.

[The_Last_Good_Dragon]

To highlight how their decision to make Roland not be able to be Reviewed alters established theme, consider "help inquisitors":

All inhabitants of the realm may be reviewed, though only the Grand Inquisitor may Review nobility.  There was a time when the members of the Royal Family were exempt (theirs being the blood of Dav himself), but as Dav's blood died out, so did the rule.

[Starstarfish]

It's not fun on the player end either, as should they continue to behave as if what they were told is not the IC reality they typically run into IC problems

There is a belief among people right, wrong, or otherwise that the official story line of the game was that the legitimate ab Harmon line died out a number of RL years ago. There were to my understanding and looking at old IC books and records and old IC Event posts a number of intense plots and a lot of RP that has happened as a result of that very basic IC and OOC belief. And what this plot has done is changed a fundamental understanding of a key piece of the theme and lore of the game or at the least that is the way it sort of feels and that the reaction to it has felt kind of visceral.

The helpfile quoted above is from 2016, which means for 2 RL years this has been the working information people have understood the IC world and built their roleplay and their OOC thoughts based on it. In the case of a lot of noble families, the last accessible information on the Wiki et al in a lot of spots is "and then the ab Harmon Plague killed them all." Noble characters from some of those areas have apped in and existed since then, but current policy for noble apps or liquidations/deaths doesn't seem to require that info be updated so I think overtime the info that staff or the players who played some of those folks have had/worked with and what players at large have had available has gotten (or felt) divergent.

And that occurring has led to some troubles and feelings that IMHO have affected people's feelings about things. So what I might humbly request to help this going forward is a consideration of what other major things this plot brings to the fore that require updating or clarification so the divergence between staff working knowledge and player assumption is closed some what.

[Voxumo]

In the past the Grand Inquisitor and the Cardinal both oversaw separate halves of the order, both having authority over their own halves and little to not authority over the other's half. Now with the elevation of the cardinal to an npc and the archbishop essentially replacing the role of the cardinal, I do not how true this division of power/authority remains, but if it still is the case, I could very well see how a mere bishop, the position directly under archbishop, could make such a move despite the stance of the Grand Inquisitor. I don't know if this is still case, since the order has certainly changed quite a bit since this was the case, but just throwing it out there as a possibility of how such could work.

Though I do have to defend theme being either ignored or warped to favor Roland. I defend this because frankly if theme was followed to a dime, well there really wouldn't have been much of a plot here. It would have ended very early on with a few key characters shutting down Roland's claim, thus shutting down the plot before it had a chance to reach beyond the "Higher-ups". The way I understand this plot is it's supposed be a plot that essentially determines the route future theme will take, similar to the mage invasion plot many moons ago. Given the importance this has to the future of the game, established theme should be manipulable to allow such a change to even be possible.

Sometimes we have to put aside what would be the most logical course of actions for the betterment of the game. Icly the Tenebrae is in contact with Roland's cook, and what would have been the smart course of action would have been to work on poisoning Roland, thus killing and ending the plot there... But that would have deprived the majority of the playerbase from rp that has taken place from Roland remaining alive.

Yes, Farra had every authority to review Roland, but let's be honest here, what would have happened if the review had been allowed to take place? I do not believe for a second Roland would have been in a condition to continue the plot in the way it has, if he even remained alive. Yes it goes against established theme, but it also ensures the plot is able to continue and reach the most amount of players as it possibly can, to continue to a point where it has the most impact on the game as it can.

For sometime now there have been players calling TI's Theme stagnant, I'm one of them who feels the theme has needed something to revitalize it, maybe not even the theme but the world of TI. This is exactly what this plot is, as right now Roland and Celeste represents two very different paths the world of TI will take, depending on whom sits on the throne. It is because of how detrimental this plot is to the world of TI, and perhaps even the continued enjoyment of the players of TI, that staff have to make the choice to bend their own theme, to ensure such a plot can take place.

It comes down to this age old phrase, Just because we can do something, does it mean it we should? Sometimes we have to go against what our characters logically would do, even if it means negative consequences for them, for the betterment of the game.

[Kinaed]

I don't know the context of Farra's conversation with the Cardinal, but 2 things:

- I told Niamh and Temi to make two candidates of equal value to win. From a staff perspective, as NPCs under our control, there's no reason or benefit to staff to have one over the other at all. They both provide the same power and control. I absolutely have no bias about who wins because functionally, it doesn't matter.

- If the Grand Inquisitor asked the Cardinal what his opinion was, I could very well imagine 'it's a secular issue' as a reasonable response.

I note that my telling Farra that Staff felt her liquidation statement was a may way or the highway view was subsequently put down as my being a supporter of Roland, when I think an actual reading of my post makes no statements about what Farra should do, etc.

I did think that the Royal family was above arrest; that was my error because I didn't remember we made that change when PCs took over the throne as PCs can play mages. To that - whoops.

But staff trying to force an outcome is illogical, accusing us of such is rude and really just besmirching us for only goodness can figure out why. Fun? Expressing frustration at things not going their way?

I've run this game for other people for about 15 years, and sometimes I need a reminder why I bother.

[Voxumo]

I think what people may have been viewing as staff forcing an outcome is instead staff bending or changing theme to help facilitate the plot.

[Taunya]

Sorry in advance for going a bit off-topic. Perhaps we should start a new thread for this.

I have noticed it's brought up often that people think all of the Harmons died in the Harmon Plague. I wasn't playing at the time, but from all that I had read, it affected all with harmon blood, but those with less pure blood made it through. There's less available records that go into more detail, but for some of the ones anyone can read:

help timeline:
352 SC:

Aprilis-Maius - A strange disease sweeps through those related to the Harmon
bloodline.  It comes to be known as the Harmon Plague.  Distant relatives
recover; those closer to the blood perish.

June - Queen Gemara dies to the plague, the last of her immediate family left
left alive. With no clear line of succession, the Succession Crisis begins.


From Ariel's book on the succession crisis in the grand library:
In court, Queen Gemara stated that her mother's line of succession could no
longer be considered valid under current circumstances, and that she would
place Margaive as her heir.  Margaive, however, was not present. 
Individuals dispatched to find the new heir did indeed find her - already
dead in the royal apartments.  At the same time, Gemara was suffering from
a terrible coughing fit, expelling a tremendous quantity of blood.  She
herself expired publicly in the court before she ever heard the news that
her aunt had predecessed her.  No line of succession was left behind, the
Queen's last work undone.

....

The Kingdom was left with not a single heir of the ab Harmon line
remaining.  The only individuals to survive the curse had such small
portions of Harmon blood that their eligibility for the throne could hardly
even be calculated to rank the claims.  It was a crisis of terrible
proportions...  And a danger of terrible proportions as well.  For the
promise of power is an intoxicating thing, and the great throne in the
Court Malenta sat utterly empty.  

So, even during the succession crisis, someone with at least Roland's amount of blood could have taken the crown, but it was a bit of a free-for-all under the circumstances, and it ended with a common-born Great Lord taking the throne after the noble in the lead withdrew, for reasons I haven't been able to figure out personally. Sounds like some fun times!