From OOC Discussion : Opening Up Southside.

[Taunya]

You wear them, and you have a much decreased risk of being attacked by the lethal mobs.
It's also only the lethal mobs which attack you, and they don't wander into (most) buildings. once you're inside say, the blind horse, it's only PCs you'd need to worry about.

[wimple]

I believe they wore the costume down and then switched to a cloak when they got inside, past the lethal mobs. Don't know that it's the same anymore, but I think you needed one to get down there and one to get back. I haven't checked into the real hide-holes in some of the buildings lately, but don't think they get many lethals in them. Regardless, there were bad nobles that I had to spy on, babysit, and/or drag out of those parts of town on the fairly regular.

As for the Knights ban, I don't remember the why on that, but they were separate guilds, and honestly, there was so much cross over with the Brotherhood and mages back then, that the Knights were pretty much guaranteed to be doing work of the Reeves while they were down there.

[chronodbu]

I don't really see a need to allow the Knights into Southside. The Knights have historically joined in on the Reeves with a number of incidents to assist them and vice-versa. I can see the Brotherhood keeping the idea that the Knights are dangerous based on previous examples in Southside as well simply to keep anyone with a force of arms from waltzing around that the Brotherhood can't control.

Personally, I think Southside is a terrible idea in conception. There's absolutely no way a Monarch would put up with half of their capital city being so lawless their nobility can't even go there without fear of being stabbed. It's unthematic to the idea of noble and freeman relations but this game does tend to have it's fantasy elements sometimes. I've always felt the idea of the Brotherhood and the way they're ingrained in society would be better influenced by an alleyway system to coincide with the Sewers and Rooftops.

But, as things currently stand - Really don't like the idea of it being opened to Knights and Gentry as it is currently without a thematic change.

[The_Last_Good_Dragon]

There's absolutely no way a Monarch would put up with half of their capital city being so lawless their nobility can't even go there without fear of being stabbed.

I'm somewhat sure that every major city in feudal Europe — on which TI:L is loosely based — had large sections of cities that any noble entering would have the general expectation of being shanked. Certainly Paris and London did.

[Starstarfish]

But, as things currently stand - Really don't like the idea of it being opened to Knights and Gentry as it is currently without a thematic change.

I'd argue:

- This hardcoded barrier is artificial and coded as it does not allow for RP as a way to get around it. It doesn't take into account and stats (like Charisma) or skills (like Acting/Mercantilism) there is no way to bribe your way past unlike other barriers at say ... the Bluebird.

- It inspires people to be meta as OOCly people are aware of the limited coded ways people can indeed cross said border, it became a high conniption point for people not that long ago. More options at the least of getting past it would loosen up the awareness of how it's done.

- We just had a pretty big IC event that could be used for some pretty good thematic changes.

- I'd argue doing away with Gentry status coded like it is (but that's a whole separate thread no doubt.) But if you are dressed in standard say noob gear and have nothing of value, how do the NPCs instantly know you are Gentry? If you are a GL or a known personality, perhaps (which is why the notoriety system now coded for nobles might be a thing to expand) but not every NPC in Southside dresses in rags. I'd argue there's a difference between trying to go to the Warrens than say the Stardust.

[Voxumo]

But, as things currently stand - Really don't like the idea of it being opened to Knights and Gentry as it is currently without a thematic change.

I'd argue:

- This hardcoded barrier is artificial and coded as it does not allow for RP as a way to get around it. It doesn't take into account and stats (like Charisma) or skills (like Acting/Mercantilism) there is no way to bribe your way past unlike other barriers at say ... the Bluebird.

At the Bluebird you pay a set price with no way to negotiate down said price to enter small Bluebirds, having to pay each time. Charisma/Acting/Mercantilism, play no role. You can of course be grouped by a gentry or noble and gain access. The barrier to Southside is the exact same.
You have the option of buying a cloak item, either from an npc or as a bonus an pc tailor. Said item has to be bought everytime. I can't recall if mercantilism affects the npc vendor or not. Southside is much larger than the bluebirds, hence the large price point. 25 for Bluebirds, 200 for Southside. Relative cheap honestly given the size of southside and what it can offer. You can also be grouped by a Brotherhood member to gain safe access.
It's the exact same function, infact I would argue Southside's barrier offers more rp opportunities given the PC Tailor aspect.

- It inspires people to be meta as OOCly people are aware of the limited coded ways people can indeed cross said border, it became a high conniption point for people not that long ago. More options at the least of getting past it would loosen up the awareness of how it's done.

I actually had someone, can't recall who off the top of my head, approach me about a month ago regarding entering southside and they were not aware of the disguises sold. So I would argue the methods for entering southside are not as well known as some would imply. Furthermore I only just recently learned that Brotherhood can "escort" folks normally barred from entering southside, and I've been playing for six years. Massive thanks to the player who was willing to icly test that with me.

If further methods are made for entering southside, we will likely just be having this same conversation down the road, as those methods become the new meta. In addition, this supposed Meta, who is it hurting? I'm very confused as to me it sounds like it supposedly benefits the people who are trying to enter more than those who wish to keep them out.

- I'd argue doing away with Gentry status coded like it is (but that's a whole separate thread no doubt.) But if you are dressed in standard say noob gear and have nothing of value, how do the NPCs instantly know you are Gentry? If you are a GL or a known personality, perhaps (which is why the notoriety system now coded for nobles might be a thing to expand) but not every NPC in Southside dresses in rags. I'd argue there's a difference between trying to go to the Warrens than say the Stardust.

How does the Order know a seeker is a mage? The reeves that a seeker is Brotherhood? The Bluebird Bouncer that a freeman dressed in silks is not gentry? These are all minute details cast to the side for the benefit of code and/or theme.

[Starstarfish]

How does the Order know a seeker is a mage? The reeves that a seeker is Brotherhood? The Bluebird Bouncer that a freeman dressed in silks is not gentry? These are all minute details cast to the side for the benefit of code and/or theme.

I'd argue ICly those things aren't known to the -players- in question. Those are OOC decisions for policy and the rules not theme. You OOCly knowing you can't join in those scenarios isn't someone else knowing it ICly.

I'd argue the Bouncer shouldn't know that the Freeman dressed in silks isn't Gentry, I'd argue that leaving that to Reeve players to "papers" and fine people leaves more RP for sumptuary et al but that's just IMHO. But, that's my hill to die on likely.

[Voxumo]

I'd argue the Bouncer shouldn't know that the Freeman dressed in silks isn't Gentry, I'd argue that leaving that to Reeve players to "papers" and fine people leaves more RP for sumptuary et al but that's just IMHO. But, that's my hill to die on likely.

I don't disagree that it would be nice if we had more gentry/nobles call on the reeves to report sumptuary violations. When I was in the reeves back in the day, those were some of the funner scenes to have, and helped break the monotony.