Exile and its Implementation

[Marisa]

I wonder if maybe it should be mostly not code-forced. When enacted, transfer them to the off-grid room (maybe with access to mail to plead their case back to the seneschal) but allow them to go right back on grid with an accept that they are defying their banishment and their life is forfeit if caught, and have most NPCs give them hell.

So, three options for someone who finds themself banished, which could be described in the room:

1) Accept this as the end of their character and proceed to liquidate, no further rumor or IC Event necessary

2) Hang around in the off-grid room and ply their case via mail, probably not a longterm option

3) Defy the exile and go back on grid, probably to cause trouble and face death

[Starstarfish]

That also doesn't make any sense if they are hiding out in places like Southside, where the Seneschal's power doesn't extend, or the wilderness

If the word of the Keeper of the Seal (and thus functionally the word of the Crown) does not extend into Southside, I think that's beginning to RP Southside as something that isn't intended - the idea they are disloyal to the Crown. Not following the Law is not the same thing as being disloyal to the Monarchy. I have my own personal feelings overall, I admit, at the existence of the coded Southside border being used (or seemingly so) as sort of a general catch-all to escape authoritative consequences.

I don't think we should be handwaving anything with vNPCs.

We have long had a difficulty between theme (wherein the Crown/Order is powerful et al) and how the functional reality of day to day RP is based on playerbase numbers. IE - that depending on when "bad things" happen, and depending on current Reeve and/or Order membership and playtimes, there can be functionally no reaction. Which is problematic to maintaining our theme, IMHO, that the entire functional in character world should not cease to exist depending on who is or is not logged in at the moment. IE with the example above, the Southside border patrol of Brotherhood members does not cease to exist or function when Brotherhood members are or are not logged in, thus maintaining that feeling and RP reality regardless. I feel like some aspect of things here could be helped or addressed by more AI reaction from NPC/vNPC Knights and Reeves to match the same persistent reaction one can expect at the Southside border.

When we're debating the code implementation of an idea, I think that theme is peripheral.

Theme is the first or a major thing we should be considering in any decision coded, policy, or otherwise. The code works (or should) to augment our theme and thus create the IC reality we are looking to play within. We can argue that we can find better thematic ways to implement a code or idea.

[Lei]

For clarification, exile does not currently require people to be captured. It makes the assumption that the Seneschal is powerful enough to turn all vNPCs against the person to the extent that they are effectively 'captured off screen'.

I think the actual removing from grid should work a lot like existing execution commands, a brief threaded public ceremony where they're branded and carted out of the city. It might be the character's final scene if they don't want to try breaking exile somehow in the future via RPA or convincing the seneschal/next seneschal to lift the exile.

I don't know how we could possibly call ourselves an RP MUD if this is the route we choose to take with this. A brief threaded ceremony before tossing someone off grid? Capturing characters off-scene? What? These are really strange ideas to be reading here.

[Voxumo]

For clarification, exile does not currently require people to be captured. It makes the assumption that the Seneschal is powerful enough to turn all vNPCs against the person to the extent that they are effectively 'captured off screen'.

I think the actual removing from grid should work a lot like existing execution commands, a brief threaded public ceremony where they're branded and carted out of the city. It might be the character's final scene if they don't want to try breaking exile somehow in the future via RPA or convincing the seneschal/next seneschal to lift the exile.

I don't know how we could possibly call ourselves an RP MUD if this is the route we choose to take with this. A brief threaded ceremony before tossing someone off grid? Capturing characters off-scene? What? These are really strange ideas to be reading here.

Glad I'm not the only one who thinks so. Exile should really have just bee like southside redlisting, but extended to the entirety of lithmore, within it's walls, wilhelm and the noble-ish estates north of wilhelm. I do not believe for a second exile should remove the character from grid, as at that point it should be counted as a pkill, instead of beating around the bush.

[lkbalboa]

I don't think someone needs to be captured to implement exile, but perhaps to enforce it, yes. The same with excommunication, which (in real life at least) was typically done against people or places in absentia, who then had to deal with the consequences. I really like the idea of turning NPCs against a person if they are exiled and stay on the run, and also any loyal PC has the chance to attack or capture, but I would err on the side of making this a way to play out a story until its end. Otherwise why not just kill them?

[Buzz K[ir]ill]

I wonder if maybe it should be mostly not code-forced. When enacted, transfer them to the off-grid room (maybe with access to mail to plead their case back to the seneschal) but allow them to go right back on grid with an accept that they are defying their banishment and their life is forfeit if caught, and have most NPCs give them hell.

So, three options for someone who finds themself banished, which could be described in the room:

1) Accept this as the end of their character and proceed to liquidate, no further rumor or IC Event necessary

2) Hang around in the off-grid room and ply their case via mail, probably not a longterm option

3) Defy the exile and go back on grid, probably to cause trouble and face death

At the time of the "enactment" it's entirely possible that the PC is already in hiding, in the wilderness or in an otherwise private/secret/secure area -- they might even be in the middle of a scene with someone they trust. So this would still feel REALLY inappropriate and unfair. That's why we can't just handwave the vNPC/escape bit and transfer people off grid at the moment the exile is approved by staff.

I think it still needs to involve PCs or, at minimum, visible NPCs in some way -- or if it's going to use vNPCs, it needs to happen in a way that doesn't just steamroll right over the PC being exiled.

This already seems overcomplicated to me for a system that should probably get used almost never, but perhaps a timer of some kind, or an "accept" command that allows the PC to be moved off-grid at a moment of their choosing within the next X hours, and if they don't accept by then, maybe it's automatic.

[Buzz K[ir]ill]

If we can remove the whole forced auto/RP-less off-grid transfer bit from this process, I think it will be a lot less offensive to me as a player.

[Taunya]

I don't know how we could possibly call ourselves an RP MUD if this is the route we choose to take with this. A brief threaded ceremony before tossing someone off grid? Capturing characters off-scene? What? These are really strange ideas to be reading here.

Exile, in my mind, should be considered as severe as execution (which also takes a character off-grid). Thus why it follows pkill policy. A brief threaded ceremony is exactly how all other executions take place.

Exile doesn't just mean not welcome in the city- they're not welcome anywhere in the kingdom. They'd likely be carted off to Daravi, tossed in the Orkin wood, marooned on an island somewhere, etc. I'd like forced labor- working in mines or something as an option as well perhaps. Coming back should not be easy, but it could be a a possible option if a player chooses not to liquidate.

But you should have to be caught before it happens.

[Marisa]

At the time of the "enactment" it's entirely possible that the PC is already in hiding, in the wilderness or in an otherwise private/secret/secure area -- they might even be in the middle of a scene with someone they trust. So this would still feel REALLY inappropriate and unfair. That's why we can't just handwave the vNPC/escape bit and transfer people off grid at the moment the exile is approved by staff.

I wasn't imagining that the off-grid room would mean that they have been deported, but rather an OOC sort of room that would describe options, and the accept could include an agreement that they were in a situation where they could have been avoiding it. Admittedly, in RP would still be awkward.

[Buzz K[ir]ill]

At the time of the "enactment" it's entirely possible that the PC is already in hiding, in the wilderness or in an otherwise private/secret/secure area -- they might even be in the middle of a scene with someone they trust. So this would still feel REALLY inappropriate and unfair. That's why we can't just handwave the vNPC/escape bit and transfer people off grid at the moment the exile is approved by staff.

I wasn't imagining that the off-grid room would mean that they have been deported, but rather an OOC sort of room that would describe options, and the accept could include an agreement that they were in a situation where they could have been avoiding it. Admittedly, in RP would still be awkward.

If the enactment could be handled to accept to be moved off-grid, instead of accepting to be moved on, I think that might make more sense -- or at least might feel less like being steamrolled.

The idea of a character sitting in an OOC holding room, socially dead but not actually dead, still seems at odds with how we typically do things, and I think may create other unanticipated issues.