PSA: Why not to play a villain on TI:Legacy

[Voxumo]

But what is the definition of a serious threat? (Omitted, commentary on ongoing RP). I will never be in support of mages being free game, as it goes against the core theme of the game, and does more long-term harm to the authority of the Order, and you know the order loves it's authority, so I see no reason they would allow something that actively undermines it.

And the daravi front is a whole nother beast that is entirely off grid.

[Starstarfish]

Also I can't agree to the idea that just because there isn't enough reeves or knights to deal with a wanted individual that it should be free game... If the knights or reeves know they don't have the manpower to handle a target on their own, they ideally shouldn't go after that target in the first place, and if they do and their plan fails. Well they knew the risk.

So if there don't happen to be enough players at a present time or time zone to deal with something, the entire rest of the game world - NPCs and vNPCs should cease to exist or function? IE - the rest of the game base should actively be punished based on what other people opt to play or not to play.

If that's the case, why is the Southside border and it's coded function not based on active Brotherhood numbers? We have a coded very obvious example of something being fundamentally real with or without active PC numbers. I'm uncertain why this only makes sense in one instance but no others.

[Voxumo]

Also I can't agree to the idea that just because there isn't enough reeves or knights to deal with a wanted individual that it should be free game... If the knights or reeves know they don't have the manpower to handle a target on their own, they ideally shouldn't go after that target in the first place, and if they do and their plan fails. Well they knew the risk.

So if there don't happen to be enough players at a present time or time zone to deal with something, the entire rest of the game world - NPCs and vNPCs should cease to exist or function? IE - the rest of the game base should actively be punished based on what other people opt to play or not to play.

If that's the case, why is the Southside border and it's coded function not based on active Brotherhood numbers? We have a coded very obvious example of something being fundamentally real with or without active PC numbers. I'm uncertain why this only makes sense in one instance but no others.

I'm not sure I'm following. The southside border is a passive coded function, that only activates upon A warning and Player approval of "Yes, I want to take that risk" The brotherhood doesn't gain anything, to my knowledge, when a player is attacked and said player is typically safely transferred northside upon a good beating. I cannot call on those mobs to suddenly come to my aid. Southside Border, and the very limited control the brotherhood has of it is no different from the use of blacklisting, fining and other similar functions other guilds have.

Do I believe npcs and vnpcs should take the place of actual players when dealing with another player... No. On top of that, normal citizens have generally been brainwashed to A) Fear Magic and let the order handle it and B) Let reeves deal with the criminals. B to a lesser extent than A though. So if you are arguing normal citizens, aka vnpcs, would help take down a mage or criminal, I don't think that is the case. They would do what they already do, report such. See a crime happen, report it. See magic happen, report.

I'm not sure to what extend reeve and knight mobs are coded, but i have to imagine they are similar to guard mobs that can be bought for homes. See a crime/magic, they attack.

What more do we want from these npcs that doesn't border on them doing the job of players?

[Taunya]

The brotherhood doesn't gain anything, to my knowledge, when a player is attacked and said player is typically safely transferred northside upon a good beating. I cannot call on those mobs to suddenly come to my aid.

Southside thugs are lethal. After a good beating, players are permakilled by them. There is an option to ask for mercy during the fight, however, in which case you're relieved of your gold/silver, and possibly items, which do go to the brotherhood.

                            Helpfile for Southside

Class: Culture
Southside is the colloquial name for the southern district of Lithmore City.
It can be accessed, from west to east: via Tavern Road, via South Road, via
King's Concourse, via Park Street, or via Flairkin Road if one goes south
through the Tubori Quarter.

Southside is a desperate, lawless district continually in the grip of
poverty.  The Great Flood of SC 354 reduced it to only about a thousand
survivors, but many refugees who lost all they had in the very same Flood
ended up forced to move there as well, and by the current time it numbers
several thousand inhabitants once more.

The Brotherhood of Common Goods has a near-stranglehold over the area, and it
is patrolled continually by their thugs.  These thugs usually call Southside
their own home, and will passionately fight to keep out those they consider
to not belong: Reeves, Knights and Knights-to-be, gentryfolk and nobles.
Others are typically allowed to go unmolested, and the Thieves can supposedly
grant safe passage on a case-to-case basis.

The danger in the area typically makes it an unwise idea for Knights or
Reeves to investigate in Southside, and it is common for crimes that happen
there to go unreported and unsolved unless they concern damage or danger to
Northside citizens as well.

OOC NOTE: The thug mobs in Southside are lethal and will cause permanent
PCdeath if they bring you down to 0 hp.  There are safeguards to prevent
this: those who belong to the target categories (Reeves, armed Orderites
gentry, nobles) can disguise themselves with an object sold in the House of
Mirrors, but it is expensive and one-use-only.

Individuals who find themselves in risk of death can also ask for mercy (use
a say with the word 'mercy' in it) to be transferred to the boundary of
Southside alive, but minus coin and possibly possessions that will become the
Thieves' property.  Of course, one may barter with the Tenebrae to get them
back...

Also, it may be safer to travel in groups.  However, no strategy can assure
certain safety in the Southside if you belong to one of the target categories
of PCs.

If you injure a thug mob sufficiently, they will ask -you- for mercy, which
you can grant by disengaging from combat.  Please keep in mind that NPCs
represent real PCs, and killing them should be viewed just the same as if you
killed a PC who had attacked you.

See also: Mercy, APPENDED NOTATIONS

(Subject area: geography              Last modified: Tue Jan 31 10:25:00 2017)

[Voxumo]

The brotherhood doesn't gain anything, to my knowledge, when a player is attacked and said player is typically safely transferred northside upon a good beating. I cannot call on those mobs to suddenly come to my aid.

Southside thugs are lethal. After a good beating, players are permakilled by them. There is an option to ask for mercy during the fight, however, in which case you're relieved of your gold/silver, and possibly items, which do go to the brotherhood.

Ah my apologies then... It's been so long since such has actually occurred. But I would argue that if a person is permakilled, it's again their choice, similar to the wilderness now. It's not players sending those mobs/npcs to hunt down that player, but that player willingly taking said risk.

[Starstarfish]

It's not players sending those mobs/npcs to hunt down that player, but that player willingly taking said risk.

Engaging in crime and/or magic in public is I'd argue also willingly taking the same sort of risk. You have to opt out of autofailsafe to allow you to do it.

I'm not sure to what extend reeve and knight mobs are coded, but i have to imagine they are similar to guard mobs that can be bought for homes. See a crime/magic, they attack.

Yes, but from experience there seems to be a wide variance in coded reactions from none to overkill that can be really unpredictable. They can also be rather easily killed with the expectation they should be replaced by player gained funding. Which isn't the easy feat it once was with silver purchase removal. So one good evening raid can be 10,000 silver in mobs.

What more do we want from these npcs that doesn't border on them doing the job of players?

(Omitted, accusing other player of cheating)

[Voxumo]

What more do we want from these npcs that doesn't border on them doing the job of players?

(OP omitted, accusing other player of cheating)

I do not think this is a reasonable expectation at all. If you believe meta information such as the who list is being used, along with people's schedules, then both are factors that can also be manipulated and used by knights and reeves, and can even be hidden through the use of whoinvis. Random mobs are not needed and would further the massive shift in counter-measures lawful types have been given lately.

[vaxin]

The idea that there aren't the tools to kill villains is laughable. Throw some ash and guard the exits. (Portion omitted for revealing current IC information)

Regardless, I don't intend on returning to this game for a while. Staff decisions are moving this game away from RP and towards a series of meaningless code commands. City metrics were a silly idea. The council was a silly idea. The idea of a Seneschal was a silly idea. Exile was a really silly idea. But staff refuse to listen to feedback and push a narrow-minded future of TI.

One of my favorite characters to ever play with was Casimir ab Azadar, a noble that didn't bother with social niceties or people's feelings. I don't think that character could exist in this current game and I don't want to play in a world without his sort.

[Tasker]

I'll start by saying, in its current condition, I think Exile is a pretty bad idea for TI. It just seems like a system to punish people OOC'ly, seeing as... as far as I know, it just teleports the player into an OOC room. That's just awful, and does not foster roleplay. At the very least, it should not apply to Mage characters or people already on the run; How can you exile someone who you can't find? Furthermore, exiling a Mage Character, well that's just mega heresy isn't it? Allowing a mage to escape, unpurifed is quite a bad sin seeing as it will very likely spawn a demon, something the Order is based in its very core to fight against. To go so far as to suggest the Mage would be simply killed upon return, that means the crown is advocating high heresy... and that does not sit well for me.

Otherwise, Exile should simply be a system whereby a player can willingly go into exile if prompted, or remain on grid and risk PK/repercussions. The benefit of willingly going into exile, would be to potentially be allowed back at a later date without being killed. It should not force a character off grid by a simple command for something as little as 25 IP.

Mooooving on, to the points about antagonist players; especially mage players. I can only speak from the Knight side of the fence, so take what I say with a certain bias.

I welcome antag characters, how would the Knights work if we just sat around polishing swords? It would be a dreary experience for all involved. I'll address the points in order with my point of view.

1) Policy

I do hate the policy culture of TI as of late, and I don't feel as though anyone is free of blame for this. We've all been a part of making this the norm, and I do hate it with a passion. It comes from a place of just nobody trusting anyone, which we're all to blame for. On my side, with the Knights, when you're time and time again going up against the same villain it leads to a certain sense of fatigue and frustration. Especially when toxicity is flying around, coupled with rumors. It makes for a bad environment for communication and for both parties to flourish. Good Roleplay between law/antag NEEDS communication to ensure what is happening is fun for all. We're a roleplay game, not a PvP game. If it's not fun, we've failed as a playerbase.

The lack of trust stems from certain players who are no longer around, who would abuse systems and take them to their very limit; which results in such systems either being removed or nerfed. In no way does this cultivate trust. All parties need to be mindful of how they are perceived. It makes it hard to consciously give the Mage the benefit of the doubt, the first emote in any scene, or as much ability to escape a possible arrest as possible. I've always tried to encourage within the Knights to put roleplay first. Do you just want to arrest someone instantly and end that whole story? Or have some wiggle room in there, and they potentially escape? I'd take the escape every time- but the lizard brain behind the computer screen sometimes interferes when you don't trust the person on the other end.

We've had this OOC level of trust with a few antags before, and it's been just brilliant. I'll name drop (Sorry Niamh) the previous Rubeus before the guild got axed, because that was the most fun I've ever had playing a Knight, there was a sense of trust between both parties to put roleplay first.

2) The Stranglehold of Law and Order

I'll touch on Mage ashes here, as it comes up time and time again. They are really not the superweapon that people think they are. Incredibly rare, unreliable and often times broken. They've always been a thing in TI, but only in recent history were they actually fixed to do what they were supposed to do. They also expire, and decay. They're supposed to be 'powerful' to make a Mage fear to tangle with Knights, which they rightly should. Knights are trained mage-hunters, only a mage who is either mad or overly confidant in their own abilities should willingly try to butt butts with a full belted Knight.

I'm still not sure what the proper skill is to use it, when I recently used them it said the improvised skill- but I was told throwing, so I still dunno about that. Plus, the thrower can always miss... I do remember someone managing to catch the ash and throw it right back once.

I think, when we tried the recent arrest we only had about two lots of it in the whole order, with both of them being in my hands. It's not a thing we give out to everyone, because it's a thematic sacred and scarce resource.

And, it really isn't that easy to capture someone who doesn't want to be captured, and I'm not saying it should be. It should be hard, it should be a give and take. The Mage should understand when they begin to oversaturate the market, constant reports of Mage sightings and attacks... just every day. Especially when functionally, it's only me and one other that should be thematically responding to it.

If I were to make a suggestion, a much... MUCH better way to introduce, or create roleplay on an antagonist character is via a story event. This way, there can be trust between parties, bridges can be mended and everybody can have fun.

3) RP is strictly optional in catching you

For the moment, with the exile command. I agree. I really do not like systems that just bypass any roleplay that could've happened grid... it's just counter to what TI should be about. My first ramble touched upon this.

[Niamh]

Oookay. Just spent about 30 minutes removing reveals of IC information, commentary on ongoing RP, and some personal attacks. To reiterate the earlier post with a little more gumption: Do not reveal IC information, do not comment on ongoing or recent RP, do not name names (No worries to Tasker - pointing out the Rubeus of a year or so ago was awesome is perfectly fine).

To add on the usual: Keep it civil and respectful to your fellow players.