Capital Crimes and Misuse of Power

[Kinaed]

Staff have lately noticed a rise in executions for non-capital crimes - to the point that we worry that executing people rather than punishing them according to the law is becoming the game culture. Are people even noticing the breach of law when a thief is executed for knowing cant or a non-mage is being pyred for a minor heresy?

On one hand, an Orderite or Reeve misusing their power is thematic and theoretically just fine. Their potential to do so is part of what makes their roles scary and powerful. On the other hand, if a thief can't steal a few coins without facing the axe, being any sort of criminal at all looks all the worse in risk versus reward.

So, the question I want to ask the pbase is - at what stage should staff step in? How? Should we put any more rules in place for executions? Or is this best handled by other players with ousting? Or does it not need handled at all, and perhaps everyone is happy with the culture of execution?

[chronodbu]

Sometimes I wouldn't mind seeing a bit more of a hands on approach from staff with these things mostly because it feels as if players don't always wholly understand theme surrounding them. Or at least, a gentle reminder about what might or might not be thematic in certain circumstances regarding executions.

It does feel sometimes as if the execution options are used in a 'meta' sense so to speak rather than because it necessarily fits the roleplay involved, specifically when it comes to pyring over things other than magery or execution over something that really shouldn't be considered a capital violation. This can leave people who enjoy playing antagonist characters feeling as if they can't because the rp line will simply be cut short without anything meaningful coming of it.

[Taunya]

That's a tough one. There's somewhat a dearth of antagonistic characters in game. For thieves especially, the code does not support them well at the moment, so I for one generally avoid playing them. I can understand where the law & order people come from wanting to execute them when they catch one- there's few opportunities to get to execute criminals, since there's few criminals, and not doing so makes them look like they don't even have a role to play. But that in turn makes it less fun to play a criminal, resulting in even fewer antagonists.

I'm not sure what the solution should be, though. Perhaps some sort of penalty if someone is executed without just cause? Reeves/orderites rebelling? I don't want to remove the opportunity for abuses of IC power, either.

[chronodbu]

Maybe an increase in the uptick of death xp if you're executed? I know there's already a bonus for it but if for example you were granted high circle level mage bonus xp for being executed by the Reeves, that could prove an interesting incentive and might make execution on that side of things feel a bit less like a gut punch?

[Geras]

For thieves the lesser penalties are right in the helpfiles. I don't mind a hands on approach for enforcing the "laws" of the crown.

[Taunya]

Maybe an increase in the uptick of death xp if you're executed? I know there's already a bonus for it but if for example you were granted high circle level mage bonus xp for being executed by the Reeves, that could prove an interesting incentive and might make execution on that side of things feel a bit less like a gut punch?

I think you already get a bonus for following through with an execution, but I'm not sure. I don't think we want to encourage people to make throw-away criminals just for RPXP farming, but overall I think we should make both sides of it rewarding to play.

[Icarus]

I think that whilst abuse of power is great an execution should perhaps have staff approval before being allowed to occur with the character giving reasons why they're doing the execution. So that staff can be sure it's not down to not understanding theme. Also it means if you want to execute someone for selfish reasons but can't get it done officially (staff say no) well that's when you can try and stage 'accidents' and pkill yourself which of course carries larger risks (but creates more plot)

But frankly as great as misuse of power is it's starting to feel like literally everyone in power just misuses it and being a thief has almost no incentives currently, stealing items isn't all that good because whilst the pawn shop has been a lovely addition it's a case of items are very unique and sometimes hard to fence because of that (also I'm doubtful there's a big secondhand market, why not get something custom made after all?) And considering that penalties seem to be enforced highly (lots of chopping blocks eh?) It's not often risk it to pickpocket a couple silver pieces.

I think currently a big thing with brotherhood is you have to really want the rp of criminal family and the family aspect as it doesn't feel worth it purely as a moneymaking scheme. It's made harder by the fact that the brotherhood loses leaders quickly. It would be nice for staff to step in occasionally to get involved a bit more in execution stuff to help keep conflict alive a bit (and make sure an entire guild isn't being executed at once) even if it means using some brotherhood guild qp for helping some break out to get revenge a later day. All our villains (besides a few very good at hiding mages) seem to be very short lived and often not heard about till executed as they don't always have the time to make big chaos to get it being talked about. And even in the case of the mages once your identity is found it seems likely hard to really get rp or do much, at least brotherhood can hide in southside easier with their guild.

But anyway it would be nice to see more fines used and only really the tenebrae should be getting executed as per helpfiles. Fines, lashing, branding, name calling, forcing the thief to work for clergy to learn a better path and find the lord to turn them away from their sinful ways. Are all much more interesting punishments and help to further rp. Execution just kills rp (funnily enough) and then reeves have to sit around bored waiting for the next daring robin hood to cause havoc and hopefully survive long enough to cause interesting plots.

Being an antagonist should always have risk, but death shouldn't have to be one for first or second time offences, let them live and learn from their mistakes. After all even in medieval times a thief wasn't necessarily just executed, a hand cut off maybe

I will end by saying I don't think any of our players want to kill rp or hate fun etc or are execution mad. I think it's easy to forget that there are other alternatives, and winning/losing culture can be an ugly beast that oft rears it's head.

Tldr: I'd like to see staff have more involvement in accepting or rejecting executions (like plots) and for alternative punishments to be enacted way more.

[Helena]

My feeling is that there is a difference between the "theme" as described in help files, which gives room for antagonist characters and a lot of grey areas, and the "RP culture", as played by players, which is much more harsh.

[Pixie]

Executing someone for a non-cap offense is a pretty significant risk for the GL. We've seen semi-recently how risky it can be without a solid support-base from other characters - it tends to end in death. When somebody takes the risk of abusing their power to met out personal justice? I'm inclined to say "good for you." TI is a harsh setting. That's hard for players to maintain on the ground (myself included), but I'd vote for "lets not make it any gentler."

[galaxgal]

As a player, I've definitely not ever been entirely clear on what the difference between lawful executions and straight-up murder is, if that's what's being asked. Like, I can tell that sometimes things smell funny, but not that there are set-in-stone IC rules being violated, if that makes sense?

But on the other hand, these executions seem pretty risky, they seem to follow a consistent internal character logic, and I'm not sure if any barriers to their initiation are necessary unless players who're the direct victim of these more-or-less murders are feeling excessively deterred from doing interesting stuff due to it.

I'd also wonder if this is more a problem with being a thief specifically kind of not being fun, from what I'm seeing by the anecdotes of thief players here. Is that a problem with the game ecosystem for thieves as a whole, or is player culture the primary factor?