Log of OOC Meeting - 2020/05/02

[Yinadele]

Kinaed says, "Today's Agenda is:

   - Staff Updates
   - Player Heartbeat
   - Player Topics

Is there anything anyone would like to add to the agenda to make certain we discuss it today? If you
register a topic, please pre-write it so you're ready to present it when called upon."

Kinaed states, "I received one anonymous topic via email this week."

Chipotle declaims, "There is something I'd like to bring up, yeah!"
  
Kinaed claims to Chipotle, "Okay, adding you."

HemprootMadnesS claims, "I'd like to talk about the lack therof any veteran players in the
brotherhood and the desperate need to some assistance there."

Sparkles says, "I have a topic but it might come up anyways naturally with other stuffs, so you can
put me at the end."

Kinaed queries, "Okay, I have the both of you. Please pre-write introductions to your topics. Anyone
else want to be added to the list?"

  
Kinaed nods at Sparkles.

  
Kinaed says to Sparkles, "I'll put you down, please pre-write it, and if it comes up, by all means
just say you can be removed from the list."
  
Sparkles nods at Kinaed.
  
Jiraiya states to Temi, "Danke"

Niamh waves.
  
Otter waves.

Venge waves
  
Chipotle waves.
  
Deedee waves.

Kinaed says, "Okay, kicking off Staff Updates - last week, I worked a LOT. But I also received
probably about seven complaints about the player we ultimately banned, and managed to fully 
investigate 3 before I felt that the others were probably, but not necessarily legitimate, but he 
had to go."

Kinaed says, "I think I handled a few minor admin things. On my desk still - Turf Wars. Probably a
bit on hold as I don't want to dogpile Niamh with code changes at the moment."

Kinaed trails off, "That's it for me. Next, randomly... "
  
Kinaed rolled 1d2 for a pool of: 2. [Ei960]
  
Kinaed says to Erika, "You're up "

Erika pontificates, "Oh no!"

Kinaed pontificates, "And I didn't see Niamh in the room, hi Niamh!"

Niamh states, "Hii."

Kinaed hugs Niamh. 

Erika declaims, "I've been working on trimming the request list, helping out with general problems
and started with helping taking care of the more simpler plots like investigations as well. That's 
about it for me!"

Niamh spins Kinaed. 

Kinaed says to Erika, "Thanks "
  
Kinaed rolled 1d2 for a pool of: 1. [Ei960]

Kinaed states to Temi, "You're up "

Kuzco wakes up and starts resting.

Temi claims, "Well, thrown through a loop with some RL today, so I'm trying to still be around but
may not be... entirely here."

Kuzco eyes around warily.

Temi says, "Not today, this week"

Temi gives a small basket toy with a head-shaped ball tied to a tether to Kuzco.

Kinaed nods at Temi.

Kuzco claims to Temi, "Thank you, T"

Temi says, "But I'm sorry for anything that falls behind.  Feel free to remind if there's a few days
where stuff that needs me isn't getting handled"

Temi claims, "So, just trying to keep up with plots and requests"

Temi nods at Kinaed.

Kinaed smiles.

Kinaed nods at Temi.

Kinaed queries to Niamh, "Do you have an update for us?"

Niamh states, "This week was a mostly code sort of week. Added MV costs to peek, track, and
appraise. Added an error message for when folks try to breed with themselves (cough). Fixed up some 
typos in the roster system's code. Cleaned up the error messages around purchasing origin to clarify 
them a bit, as they were kind of confusing. Changed how notify prints for notify guild and notify 
<person>, both to reveal less OOC info. In the first case it'll reflect appropriately if the person 
is masked/cloaked, for example. In the second case it'll show the remembered alias instead of the 
coded name. Just little bits like that."

Kinaed says, "Thank you, Staff. This place would collapse without you.  You're awesome."

"Agreed! YOu all are amazing." Venge nods firmly [Venge]

Venamelia says, "Oh, appraise has an MV cost now. I was wondering where the tiny flecks of my MV
disappeared to."

Niamh grins.

Niamh nods.

Kuzco claims, "Thanks for your hard work"

KHARONYX states, "Breeding yourself huh. Wonder who tried that."

Kuzco says, "Yeah all the 'free' skills now have a MV cost"

Kuzco says, "Like tracking and peeking"

Kinaed wonders, "Next up - Player Heartbeat! How has the game been for you in the last week?"

Naomi claims, "...I wondered that too."

Deedee says, "Notify (person) just shows 'Someone' I think, nothing identifyable"

Kuzco says, "Intense."

Kuzco claims, "Very, very intense and draining."

Venge says, "Really good! A lot of very intense scenes but good ones."

Violet claims, "Crazy intense. Insanely grateful for all the RP I've had with folks <3"

Kinaed comforts Kuzco.

Kinaed queries to Kuzco, "Was that a good or okay thing overall?"

Kinaed nods at Violet.

Sparkles states, "Eh ... I'm just going to say ... eh."

Venamelia says, "I think today has been the calmest day I had in this week. It feels a bit bizarre."

Yinadele states, "Really intense! Also, really good here."

Naomi says, "Extremely busy, not bad"

Kuzco states, "Mixed bag, to be honest"

Preposterous states, "Play has been good, but... yes, what Kuzco said. Draining, in some ways."

Kinaed asks, "Is that why our wholist is so small? Things have been intense?"

Chipotle declares, "I've had a lot of fun, personally! And I've still had trouble sleeping. But this
morning, that was due to rats in the wall, not the MUD, so that's good!"

Kinaed nods at Venamelia.

HemprootMadnesS states, "I'm pretty frustrated, confused, and overall not sure what to do. I am
considering closing out RP with my PC's death and moving on elsewhere."

Kinaed nods at Kuzco.

Kinaed nods at preposterous.

KHARONYX says, "For me, it's been okay. Not so intense but not so slow either."

  
Kinaed nods at Chipotle.

  
Kinaed nods at HemprootMadnesS.

  
Kinaed comforts HemprootMadnesS.

  

Jiraiya states, ":( hemp"

  

Civetta states, "Too much work"

  
Kinaed nods at KHARONYX.

  
Kinaed comforts Civetta.

  

Venge hugs hemp 

  

Sparkles says, "I mean there was a time the other night 1/3 of the Wholist ... 8 people was on
Whoinvis, so ... it's feel a bit harder to feel out RP."

  

Chipotle offers solidarity to hemproot. "I want to help you feel better, friend! I'm not sure who
you play, but I appreciate you."

  

Desert claims, "Been good just pretty stressful, too much looming overhead."

  

Kinaed muses, "So... if I could get a number, scale of 1-10, where 10 is super fun and the best
ever, and 1 is everything is shit, I don't know why I'm even here - what was last week for folks?"

  
Kinaed nods at Desert.

  

Desert muses, "And the 8-10 people on whois was a joke that started through OOC I think?"

  
Kinaed claims to Desert, "I wasn't around for that."

  

Chipotle states, "Nope, the whoinvis was legit - though as far as I remember, it was more like 4
people, not 8. Maybe a different time."

  

Violet says, "In terms of quality RP, 8, in terms of FUN, 3? It was pretty dark and intense."

  

Kuzco wonders, "I'd give it a ... 6? It was engaging, but at some point I played more than I wanted 
to, just to keep the peace and deter"

  
Kinaed nods at Chipotle.

  
Kinaed nods at Kuzco.

  
Kinaed nods at Violet.

  

KHARONYX says, "About six."

  
Kinaed nods at KHARONYX.

  

Violet says, "And yah, like Kuzco, played more than I wanted to to sort things out."

  

Chipotle states, "RP and fun... 9 and 7. I must put the OOC stress in there somewhere "

Venge states, "Probably about an 8 overall."

  
Kinaed nods at Violet.

  
Kinaed nods at Venge.

  

Desert states, "Ehh, 4 probably."

  
Kinaed nods at Desert.

  

HemprootMadnesS states, "3 or 4, I guess."

  
Kinaed nods at HemprootMadnesS.

  

Civetta says, "Also at around a 3 or 4 given my particular preferences"

  

Deedee claims, "Maybe a six here"

  

Kinaed claims, "Well, for anyone who experienced under an eight - I'm sorry. I'd love for you, if
you can find the energy, to drop me a note and explain what happened last week that made the game 
less than awesome for you."

  

Kinaed says, "If it's too much on top of everything else, all good. Totally optional."

  

Kuzco claims, "That's very appreciated Kin."

  

Venamelia claims, "Uh... RP quality. 8. And fun? 6? It's been a mixed bag. There has been a lot of
surprising things, things I loved, but also a drag out on the character's weakness. Basically a good 
mix between things."

  
Kinaed nods at Venamelia.

  

Kinaed claims, "Okay, let's swap to player topics for now."

  

Otter states, "I feel like I've been too much on the sidelines of stuff but peripherally aware of
some of it at the same time? Don't have a number rating."

  
Kinaed nods at Otter.

  

Kinaed states, "Fair enough."

  

Chipotle says, "Who's up first? I'm ready when it's on me."

  

KHARONYX says, "*elevator music*"
  

Kinaed states, "Okay, kicking off player topics, I received an email that I think I'll struggle to
raise the way the player wanted me to - it was a very long email. Fundamentally I think it was a 
reminder to keep things IC rather than OOC. There wasn't anything in it that I detected as against 
policy, so I remember writing the player back and suggesting that if an individual player plays in a 
style that you don't like, it's okay to take an IC dislike to them and avoid the character as much 
as possible, but staff don't generally enforce 'quality of RP' items, only policy violations."

  

Desert says, "This is the point where we watch the tape as it loads the game."

  

Kinaed claims, "It was a bit confusing, so if the owner wants to clarify, I'm sorry if I represented
your OOC Chat topic poorly. Otherwise, I'm happy to leave it at that and move on to others."

  

Kinaed trails off, "Okay, to the sound of crikets..."

  
Kinaed asks of Chipotle, "You're up! Please introduce us to your topic?"

  

Chipotle claims, "There is something about the beginning of combats which bothers me, wherein people
are capable of escaping others despite what is probably a hostile situation without any RP to leave 
scene or escape - just a simple "n" can get you out of the room within seconds, which is often not 
enough time to RP even if characters would be capable of responding. There is also an OOC impetus to 
end combat as quickly as possible to avoid a large scene, even when such a thing would happen in 
less than a minute IC; people come from across the map in the time it takes for a short exchange of 
blows to occur. It creates a situation where there is OOC pressure to type as fast as possible, to 
limit your RPs to the bare minimum, and make sure to "catch" the player on the other end before they 
can escape, limiting the detail and attention you can put into your RP for fear of a negative 
result. I know that once combat fully starts, there are five-minute timers, but I think that this 
particular situation sort of goes against the grain of the rest of TI:L's design, where it's 
seemingly designed to eliminate the "type faster than other man and have all the commands memorized 
and/or have powerful aliases/scripts and gain an OOC advantage" that other MUDs tend to have. Other 
players have said that this is somewhat necessary due to the fact that people tend to show up when 
combat scenes happen, and people will probably want to get out of there as quickly as possible. So, 
with that in mind, I have two suggestions: 1. A command which "freezes" the RP around it when 
someone uses it, similar in idea to GRAPHIC, but focused specifically on when a situation becomes 
HOSTILE, named HOSTILE, that will allow the person who used it a minute or two to type up their 
"inciting post," that is, the first declaration of overtly hostile action, and everyone around them 
to properly react to it as their characters would, instead of having intense OOC pressure to hurry 
and jump in. 2. A policy about people being unable to join and interfere with combat for "

  

Chipotle declares, "Oops, multiple parts!"

  

Chipotle claims, "A certain number of turns or IC time unless they were in the room or otherwise
attentive to the room before the actual "melee" occurred, to allow people a chance to escape and 
properly commence their combat RP in the way that it began, without OOC pressure to hurry as much as 
possible or else find themselves in a situation that becomes unfavorable; this would give them a 
chance to escape the scene or otherwise achieve what they wanted to do and have the time to make 
that RP meaningful, without being OOCly pressured to get combat done as fast as possible. I am 
relatively inexperienced in both MUDs and combat in specifically Inquisition, but I feel like how it 
currently is, people who can type quickly, who have aliases or scripts, or who are otherwise OOCly 
familiar with commands have a significant advantage in that window that significantly disadvantages 
new players, mobile users, and others who cannot type as quickly or who are prone to typos and 
mistakes, as well as generally allow people to be more chill on an OOC level when combat occurs and 
take their time with their writing."

  
Temi nods.

  

Kinaed nods thoughtfully.

  

Temi says, "I do think the current set-up has been something a lot of people don't feel quite happy
with, but we dont necessarily have anyhting better yet"

  

Sadon states, "I like that second suggestion."

  

Kinaed claims, "So... the reason TI's RP tends to be somewhat slow is simply because that's the type
of player we've attracted - not a good or a bad thing - but just a style thing. The commands to 
flee, etc, are actually IC actions, and anything a player does IC is part of RP, not just emotes."

  

Kuzco claims, "I do remember that's how Laxus got captured, the knight-mage"

  

Violet states, "Oof, wall of text! But I think I agree. It seems counter to the game as a whole that
players can leave scene and escape without any RP to avoid conflict. It's one of the only 
circumstances I come up against where timing/how quick you can spam commands is essential, and I 
intrinsically dislike it. I've recently been experiencing suspicious-looking cloaked folks coming 
and going from the room I'm in without any RP, and it's frustrating."

  

Kinaed says, "We do have a command about taking turns, called TURNS, by the way, which is very
similar and used for hostile RP, but it wouldn't stop someone's turn being running off."

  

Kuzco states, "He ambushed a squire in the Keep, who managed to send a shady messenger -- and before
their combat was over, the entire grid was in the Keep"

  

[OOC] Murrmurs: "OOC meeting?'"

Violet claims, "Similarly, players shouldn't feel the need to walk into the room and immediately
guard exits without first emoting"

  

Venge says, "I have to agree with a lot of that. I dislike that to a point it becomes a race of who
can type their command faster. Be it guard or flee etc."

  

[OOC] Jiraiya: "Yesh"

  

Chipotle trails off, "The specific situation which brought the first to my attention was finding
myself OOCly disadvantaged because I bothered to actually interface with the scene and take time to 
RP, whereas the other side was... 'flee runs away'"

  

Venamelia claims, "The hurrying part, the only displeasure I had was when someone was spamming
commands to go first on a turn, rather than write something nice out. Felt lacking to me in 
satisfying roleplay, but different people, different wants. As for recent experiences, my characters 
observing thieves and the like, from the Reeve initiating RP to the thief just using travel X to 
flee without consequence."

  

Kinaed says, "Also, I've been informed that no scripts were used, but that players from Sindome,
where a recent influx of our players come from, are used to a much faster, much more 'code 
dangerous' game to us, and hence tend to be very quick. Not sure if that's the case, it's hard to 
say."

  
Temi has transferred Murrmurs.  [OOC]

  
Temi gives a wicker-woven Chalice Rising basket lined with white linen to Murrmurs.

  
Kinaed says to Venge, "I do agree that we'd prefer the game wasn't a race."

  
Temi has created a small basket toy with a head-shaped ball tied to a tether[5].

  
Temi gives a small basket toy with a head-shaped ball tied to a tether to Kinaed.

  

KHARONYX claims, "That is true about Sindome."

  
Temi gives a small basket toy with a head-shaped ball tied to a tether to Murrmurs.

  

Kuzco claims, "I am a very fast typer/command input-ter, but I deliberatedly slow myself down to
allow others time to react"

  

Kinaed says, "Having said that, when it comes to arbitrating player conflict, the best thing is
something like code."

  
Kinaed nods at Kuzco.

  

Venge muses, "Maybe an alert similar to turns Kin?"

  

Kuzco says, "I recently had to stop trying to emote when entering certain situations"

  
say I think if there was a scenefreeze mechanic when hostile intention is stated, it would be nice.

Yinadele states, "I think if there was a scenefreeze mechanic when hostile intention is stated, it
would be nice."

  

Kuzco says, "And instead firing up quick commands"

  

Chipotle claims, "I don't think any scripts were used, but that situation that occurred has made it
almost necessary for me to have pre-typed combat aliases to prevent someone from having that 
advantage over me, and that's not a good feeling. I like to take time with my RP and give people 
meaningful conflict, not just deal out mechanical, barebones RP to ensure my character isn't gimped 
due to my desire to... roleplay in a roleplaying game."

  

HemprootMadnesS claims, "Yeah, this is experience vs Sindome is extremely different. I've been
playing there for like 15 years. Things just aren't streamlined. Some thing cause bugs. There's a 
real delta between policy, expectation, and code."

  

Kinaed claims, "I'm not certain I'm convinced. I don't think it's fair to tell someone not to run
because you're not done killing them yet, or arresting them for certain death, etc."

  

Kinaed claims, "Frustrating to chase someone, sure - but their life is often on the line, and at
worse it's the ego of the arrestor."

  

Murrmurs asks, "Is there an issue in here with individuals not respecting Turns?"

  

Violet states, "The point isn't to give one side an advantage over the other, I think, but rather to
give both parties the chance to emote the scene of guarding/fleeing"

  
say ^

Yinadele claims, "^"

  

Violet states, "Rather than just spamming code"

  
Kinaed queries to HemprootMadnesS, "Are you referring to Sindom or to us?"

  

HemprootMadnesS states, "Inquisition."

  

Venge says, "Kin I think it's more that if you walk into someone doing something both sides should
have a chacne to emote at least once in a reasonable time period *before* fleeing."

  
Kinaed nods at HemprootMadnesS.

  

Venge states, "So both parties have a chance to get set as it were."

  

Preposterous states, "I think what feels like a recent trend toward 'winning' vs 'telling a story
together' is not changing the game in a positive way, and leads to some of these times that RP needs 
to stop in trade for code."

  
Kinaed states to Venge, "Not really reasonable when it takes some players 10+ minutes to emote."

  

Kuzco says, "It's hard to be fair to both sides, granted. But this is an RP game, not Overwatch."

  

Venamelia says, "I would say that I felt that some people disrespected Turns, but people can hit
twice in a row, too, hence the conflict, I feel. And yes, agreeing with Venge."

  

Kinaed claims, "But potentially we could adjust the flee command to require an emote."

  

Kinaed ponders.

  

Sadon claims, "If givig extra time, to allow emote to go through, disadvantages a player because of
the whole "everyone's going to be here" thing, then if that's not fixed, i dont see the emote thing 
being fixed."

  

HemprootMadnesS claims, "It does, I believe."

  

Venge claims, "'flee's x direction quickly' is not really an emote "

  
Kinaed states to Venge, "We can give it a minimum character requirement."

  

Kuzco states, "Flee requires a command and most people type either a single word or a '.'"

  

Kuzco states, "An emote I mean"

  

Niamh frowns.

  

HemprootMadnesS claims, "When youre opponent is kneecapping you when you enter the room - it has to
be, sadly."

  

Chipotle states, "This does not mean that they would be unable to flee; it means that everyone has a
chance to roleplay prior to the mechanical result, instead of having to focus 100 percent on 
mechanics. I think 2 minutes or so is better than what currently exists - which is a timelimit of 
exactly zero."

  

Kinaed states, "That doesn't seem appropriate."

  

Otter claims, "Wait, really? Even against animals I usually try harder than that."

  

Violet claims, "Yah, I guess what I've been observing is an increase in players spamming guard when
they enter a room, or players immediately sprinting out of scenes they find themselves in without 
even emoting their presence."

  
Kinaed nods at Otter.

  

Kinaed claims, "I think that's a bit twinky and against the spirit of the law."

  

Jiraiya queries, "Doesnt help twink cover this already?"

  

Chipotle says, "It's not much different than 'flee x runs away.'"

  
Venamelia nods at Kinaed.

  

Kuzco states, "To me, it has recently come to the fact where I -cannot- make arrests if I don't
spam"

  

Kuzco states, "And I hate it"

  
Kinaed nods at Kuzco.

  

Chipotle states, "It's an arms race that destroys the RP."

  

Murrmurs nods with Kuzco.
William is idle.

  

Civetta states, "Same"

  

Kuzco claims, "An arms race. Good concept."

  

HemprootMadnesS claims, "And on the other side of that, we've only gotten spam for the most part."

  

Venge states, "Yeah I think that's a good metaphor for this."

  

Deedee claims, "'flee x attempts to run away.' sounds fine"

  
Kinaed has transferred foodie.  [OOC]

  
Kinaed has transferred Radiune.  [OOC]

  

Kuzco claims, "And I'm not even using my final form, to borrow from JRPGs."

  

Violet states, "And on the other hand, antagonistic characters feel as though they're screwed unless
they spam flee without setting scene."

  
Temi gives a small basket toy with a head-shaped ball tied to a tether to foodie.

  

Venamelia states, "I can affirm and vouch for what Kusco said."

  

Kuzco says, "I don't stack aliases etc"

  
Temi gives a small basket toy with a head-shaped ball tied to a tether to Radiune.

  

HemprootMadnesS says, "Same. I hand type everything...ridiculously fast."

  

Sparkles says, "I think a difficulty is that the level of antagonism can ... ramp up the feeling of
the need to react."

  
say To defend the other side a bit as well; It's that idea that getting caught has no recourse, and 
if you're NOT spamming to exit, you're probably going to get overwhelmed and smashed.

Yinadele says, "To defend the other side a bit as well; It's that idea that getting caught has no
recourse, and if you're NOT spamming to exit, you're probably going to get overwhelmed and smashed."

  

Kinaed states, "Okay, I don't think this is the right medium to fix this, but we are hearing the
problem. I think it'd be best if we write a forum post for people to participate in and staff have a 
discussion."

  

Kuzco states, "The latest was, I had to attack someone when they started to spam shoulder, because
they would eventually have overran me by sheer weight of probability"

  

Jiraiya nods to Violet and Yin

  

Preposterous claims, "Winning vs. Story. Yeah, it isn't good. That, in itself, feels hack and slash,
rather than RP focused."

  

Venge nods to Kin. "I think that's reasonable."

  
say I think having something to at least scenefreeze for an emote AND prevent entry, it would be 
fair to both sides.

Yinadele says, "I think having something to at least scenefreeze for an emote AND prevent entry, it
would be fair to both sides."

  

Kinaed claims, "As it is, I fundamentally agree the way flee works isn't ideal, but we used to have
the opposite with the 'forced emote at the beginning', and it really was problematic."

  

Murrmurs nods with Kuzco.

  

Jiraiya agrees with forum posts

  

Vitamin claims, "It isn't really a solution but it does sound like a huge part of the difficulty
with this is that neither party in the conflict knows what kind of approach to the scene they 
prefer, so they have to guess and act defensively - which often means quickly."

  

Desert says, "In all fairness. It sounds like playing an antagonist is a bit too much of an uphill
battle. The moment something's wrong, the Reeves and Knights will get together and stop it right 
away."

  

Kinaed claims, "So we need to get better, but not necessarily with the ideas that have been
presented here."

  

Chipotle states, "I will say, also, that completely separate of this, I think the second suggestion
regarding people entering scenes from across the planet because they see 8 people in whererp or 
something similar is pretty important as well, and has precedent of causing issues here."

  
William is no longer idle.
William has returned from AFK.

  
say Has scenelocked combat policy been considered heavily?

Yinadele queries, "Has scenelocked combat policy been considered heavily?"

  

Kuzco states, "The Reeves and Knights unite when the antagonist messes with both"

  

Kuzco states, "It's against common sense to fight both faith and crown"

  
Kinaed says to Yinadele, "Not yet, but we're happy to consider it."

  
nod
Yinadele nods.

  
say I'll try writing something up on the forums to that effect with a few potential implementations 
as I see it, since I feel like it could benefit both parties.

Yinadele claims, "I'll try writing something up on the forums to that effect with a few potential
implementations as I see it, since I feel like it could benefit both parties."

  

Kinaed wonders, "So, is someone here - I'm sorry, like I mentioned earlier, I've had very little
sleep and just woke up - is someone here willing to start a topic about this on our forums?"

  
Kinaed pontificates to Yinadele, "Thank you!"

  

Preposterous says, "Yeah, usually knights and reeves work on different cases. But mess with both
groups, ICly. it makes sense for them to band together."

  

Temi claims, "I do think the knights and reeves tend to be more inclined to work together than
against each other, and dont really need a huge incentive to do so, though maybe a little nudge."

  

HemprootMadnesS muses, "When the tactics of the southsider is to conceal themselves amongst the
numerous but the meta is to call any thief a member of the brotherhood...does it even matter who you 
gup against?"

  

Chipotle states, "My second suggestion is primarily to protect those antagonists who would be most
likely impacted by convenient reinforcements, especially in the world where the first suggestion 
exists."

  
Kinaed claims to Yinadele, "When it's up, let me know and I'll post an in-game link to the forum
post on the Boards."

  

Sparkles says, "It's also tricky that the banned player created a lot of RP threads (and rumours)
across multiple chars where the reaction was that failing to react quickly and with some kind of ... 
finality was a failure of some kind on people's part so I think it's stirred up a lot of feelings of 
how serious things are."

  
Kinaed nods at Sparkles.

  

Radiune muses, "It'd help if there were two antagonist groups to counteract having two protagonist
groups - maybe a return of the Manus?"

  
Deedee nods.

  

Kinaed claims, "We had a lot of problems with that player, and I suspect some of this issue is
related to the kind of OOC behavior and disrespect of others that was introduced into the game."

  
Venamelia nods.

  

Sadon claims, "Your second suggestion was good IMO."

  

HemprootMadnesS queries, "That was a consistent IC effort. Is antagonizing the meta not a valid
tactic when the meta is disallowed in the first place?"

  

Chipotle says, "It is. I will say that I consider the issue likely to subside somewhat as time goes
on, but it is still very much a core, fundamental problem of mechanics vs RP."

  

Kuzco wonders, "Doesn't the thief thematically hold a monopoly on crime?"

  

Kinaed says, "Ultimately, it probably took me too long to get through the policy complaints and
resolve the issue, leaving TI hanging for a week or more. My apologies on that, because I suspect it 
contributed to the hard week."

  

Kuzco says, "The brotherhood I mean"

  

Otter questions, "If the Manus comes back does that mean more giant spider demons?"

  

HemprootMadnesS trails off, "Not really..."

  

Sparkles queries, "What does 'antagonizing the meta' mean?"

  

Kuzco says, "It's in the helpfiles"

  

Radiune asks, "And dragon disease that makes you float and sneeze sparks?"

  

HemprootMadnesS says, "Doesn't change there is no brotherhood guild."

  

HemprootMadnesS states, "It's like a newbie."

  

Jiraiya muses, "I say this as someone who loved Manus but... was Manus ever really antagonistic?"

  

HemprootMadnesS claims, "Who was basically chased into it."

  

Chipotle states, "Hey Hemproot - as someone who's ostensibly "against the Brotherhood" IC, I just
want to let you know that I appreciate the presence of the Brotherhood on an OOC level, and I pick 
up what you're putting down. I want the RP to be good for all sides."

  

Venamelia claims, "Causing trouble to the norm, meta, the current ongoings, order of how things are
or happen."

  

Radiune says, "I was never around for the Manus admittedly - but the idea has always appealed to
me."

  

Foodie says "Me too once I read about it."

  

Preposterous says, "I dont think someone ICky assuming someone is with the Brotherhood if they are a
thief is that far off base, honestly. "

  

KHARONYX claims, "I'm late but I don't think the Knights and Reeves necessarily band up immediately
together at the slightest nudge."

  
Kinaed claims to Sparkles, "I have no idea."

  

Kuzco states, "The Manus was a disaster"

Jiraiya claims, "Radiune the trouble is the manus' goals tend to be the rational ones for mages.
which is hiding and learning."

  
Kinaed nods at preposterous.

  

Naomi declares, "For what it's worth, Hemproot, I hope you don't give up!"

  

Venge states, "The problem with the old manus is that it didn't contribute to RP in a meaningful
way"

  

HemprootMadnesS claims, "Someone asked me about antagonizing the meta...I can explain if you want.
It's a sindome tactic I've used for a very long time and may not have a place here."

  

Violet states, "^ that."

  

Otter says, "My impression is that the Manus largely was NOT very antagonistic."

  

Venge says, "It turned into mages sitting in a tower spamming teach."

  

Kinaed claims, "To be clear, the banned player had multiple characters that acted like thieves, and
only a few actually in the Brotherhood."

  
Kinaed nods at Venge.

  

Kuzco says, "And the reeves and the knights aren't that close allies for the simple reason that so
many reeves end up being mages"

  

Radiune states, "And perhaps the greatest motivator to obtaining knowledge is attacking repositories
that hold forbidden information (assuming they exist)"

  
Temi nods at Otter.

  
Kinaed says to HemprootMadnesS, "Please explain, I think we don't understand."

  

Kinaed says, "I certainly don't, at least."

  

Jiraiya states, "It might help if manus had some other goal aside from self protection but im at a
loss as to what it could be"

  

Venge says, "I think Manus could return but it would require some sort of adjustment on a
fundamental level. I... actually have a thought i've been mulling over for a while."

  

Chipotle states, "He's describing the creation of character concepts which disrupt the IC status
quo, I believe."

  
Kinaed nods at Jiraiya.

  

Venge says, "I'll write it up and post it on the forums."

  

Venamelia wonders, "Maybe the goal to educate the public on truth?"

  
say I think when said 'non-existent/newbie' group has managed to steal high profile heists, kill a 
character, and attack several others- And the knights/order have had NO part in this conflict up 
until this point- I really have to say this pretty solidly: I think the Brotherhood's issue is 
biting off way more than it can chew, not being a newbie or not existing.

Yinadele says, "I think when said 'non-existent/newbie' group has managed to steal high profile
heists, kill a character, and attack several others- And the knights/order have had NO part in this 
conflict up until this point- I really have to say this pretty solidly: I think the Brotherhood's 
issue is biting off way more than it can chew, not being a newbie or not existing."

  

HemprootMadnesS claims, "In Sindome, I inherently do not trust the fellow player to not be meta. So,
I employ IC tactics which will actively fight meta and expose it when used. "

  

Kuzco claims, "In Sindome the staff doesn't trust the player as a principle, yeah"

  
say It's a LOT of stuff in a short IC period.

Yinadele says, "It's a LOT of stuff in a short IC period."

  

Venge claims, "It's more of a magery in general thing but it could potentially allow for at least
more antagonistic RP from mages."

  

Kuzco states, "If there' any contradiction it is assumed the player is lying"

  
say EVERYONE has to react when it's -so much-.

Yinadele states, "EVERYONE has to react when it's -so much-."

  

Radiune asks, "I feel like there *have* to be some really overtly magical books or something that
the Order have hidden away - is that not motivation enough for the Manus to say, "hey, you stole 
this knowledge from our community, we're going to attack you and steal it back", and launch 
coordinated attacks on libraries and other places?"

  

HemprootMadnesS says, "I.E. Who commited that crime?? It was an average man in all black they'll
say."

  

HemprootMadnesS claims, "The meta tells you that's one guy. The ambience and game not so much."

  

Jiraiya says, "It takes a lot of work to make a powerful mage too. thats not something to be thrown
away willy nilly."

  
Kinaed nods at Yinadele.

  

[OOC] Tasker: "Am I missing the meeting?"

  

Sparkles trails off, "That honestly sounds a bit paranoid and ... "

  

Murrmurs says, "I think the 'meta' view is a challenge, given TI's emphasis on storytelling."

  

[OOC] Otter: "YES"

  

[OOC] Jiraiya: "Yes"

  

[OOC] Murrmurs: "Yerp"

  

Preposterous states, "So, you are saying that you assume everyone is a cheater? That goes against...
all we are here. We assume players are doing their best and following the rules, jnless proved 
otherwise."

  

[OOC] Tasker: "GASP"

  

[OOC] Venge: "Yeshp"

  

KHARONYX states, "I don't think open war between mages and the Order is the way to go."

  

Kinaed says, "Hmm."

  

[OOC] Temi: "Did you want to come?"

  

Radiune finishes abruptly, "I guess I always felt that to be the primary motivator for their
existence - a war of information, propaganda and attempting to win over the hearts and minds of the 
populace"

  
Kinaed has transferred Tasker.  [OOC]

  
Temi gives a small basket toy with a head-shaped ball tied to a tether to Tasker.

  

Radiune states, "Not open war, mind you - cold war."

  

Sparkles states, "Guys, I don't think we can discuss this and the Manus at the same time."

  
Temi has created a small basket toy with a head-shaped ball tied to a tether[5].

  

Kuzco states, "Mages banding with each other historically end up betraying each other. It's why the
Manus didn't have any real purpose other than self preservation."

  

A male voice says, "Did someone say manus"

  

Kuzco says, "Tasker behave"

  
Niamh laughs.

  

Venge spits out his drink

  

HemprootMadnesS says, "Frankly, from what I've seen...and the story I've been able to tell...it's
warranted. "

  

Jiraiya states, "I dont think there's anything wrong with people following rational self interest
though in terms of the meta. i just don't know how to adjust the code to make that more story 
friendly"

  

Preposterous claims, "And, if you approach every situation assuming everyone is a cheater, THAT is
what is causing the issue with lack of RP and jumping to code. People have to react to what is 
thrown at them."

  

Chipotle claims, "I think there are a lot of good points raised. Specifically on the subject of
'fighting the meta,' though, it's another arms race that gets everyone focused on the OOC, I feel, 
just like the mechanics issue up above."

  

HemprootMadnesS states, "For sure. It's not really what I wanted to discuss at all but someone
asked."

  

Chipotle claims, "If those mechanics issues are resolved, that helps a lot with letting people feel
like they can be safe roleplaying what they need to, in the way they want to, within a reasonable 
timeframe."

  
Wimpled is idle.

  

Kuzco says, "I do hate that people see a cloakde fellow and freak out"

  
Wimpled is no longer idle.

  

Kinaed says, "My personal opinion is that all of that is just fine. The problem we had is that the
player who was removed from the game wasn't about the fact that they ICly committed a crime, or even 
a slew of them (beyond ignoring limits I'd laid out for him OOCly when I felt like it was getting 
out of hand and asked him to reduce random attacks to once per week).

The problem was the OOC antagonism being hand-in-hand with IC antagonism and absolutely no care or
interest in the play experience of people around him. Plus a healthy dose of constantly breaking 
rules."

  

Kuzco states, "I hate it and sometimes Norrig wears an unusual cloak just to see if someone will
attack a noble based on it"

  

Kinaed states, "'all of that' being things like crime waves, trying to ICly change the status quo,
etc."

  

Chipotle says, "I appreciate your perspective because those mechanics issues are "policy voids," in
my opinion, @hemproot, and your perspective of coming from a relatively cutthroat environment is 
valuable."

  

Jiraiya states, "I think the recent rp with brotherhood was more good than bad too and a lot of fun"

  
Kinaed nods at Jiraiya.

  

Foodie looks overwhelmed

  

Kuzco states, "It did show the limits of code and policy for sure"

  

Chipotle claims, "Yeah, I liked the RP a lot; I felt there was great potential for the characters
the banned player played, but they were just taken in unfortunate directions."

Venge says, "I think it created a lot of good rp but it did so in a really really problematic way."

  

Kinaed says, "So long as it's IC and not stuff like 'Bob's walking down the street. Looks like a
good victim, let's do this'"

  

HemprootMadnesS trails off, "Seems like a good moment to segway into my brotherhood topic..."

  

A male voice says, "I did enjoy it, but it ended on quite a sour note. "

  
Kinaed states to HemprootMadnesS, "Luckily, you actually are next on the list. Please introduce us."

  

Venamelia states, "I like TI for the story telling feel. Some may not be entirely for me, but that
is fine, too often, as long as it feels like proper story. The only times I got upset or 
significantly dissatisfied was when any sort of OOC carried over."

  

Preposterous states, "I don't feel safe roleplaying my non-combatives right now, and haven't for a
while. I tend to go out in public with them less, for fear they are going to get ganked for, you 
know, existing."

  

Kinaed states, "As for resolving the last - I'll need to reread this log because a lot of what
people said spammed by me."

  

Kinaed says, "But I'll have a look and see if I can formulate anything valuable to help."

  

Kinaed says, "And we have the forum post."

  

HemprootMadnesS claims, "As it stands currently, the brotherhood consists of two active players who
are extremely new to the game. The third player having been recently banned and leaving us with a 
bit of a mess to say the least. There hasn't been a lot of direction or insight into how things play 
out. It's mostly just been a back and forth roflstompfest of newbie's trying to learn the game, 
being praised openly on ooc chat, criticized to staff privately and in obvious cases banned for 
fucking up irrehensibly. There's really not a good forseeable way for us to go about it without just 
grasping at straws while walking on eggshells and we need help. There's very little southside RP and 
actually providing a provacative experience to any newbie interested in the game has been a 
struggle. I want to be able to provide a cooperatively competitive enviroment with the brotherhood 
but frankly doesn't seem viable in this form."

  

Kuzco says, "I will call myself to silence on this."

  

Radiune states, "I just wanted to say, the Reeves-Brotherhood conflict *has* felt realer and more
present than it has ever before (I just wish it wasn't achieved through nasty OOC methods)"

  

Radiune says, "Ever before as in, in my time here."

  
Kinaed nods at Kuzco.

  

Sparkles states, "I think the issue is ... it doesn't feel like a desire to be cooperative."

  

HemprootMadnesS states, "Kuzco. For context, I used to Void, Killian Rez, Hiro, etc. "

  

Preposterous states, "Again, winning vs. telling a story together. Even the moods left say, "Look, I
shit all over your house. I won.""

  

Kinaed states, "I think there's a few things here."

  

Temi claims, "I do think it's tough.  I've played Brotherhood before, and I loved when it felt like
a community and felt isolated when it shifted into everyone protecting themselves to the extent you 
would never see any unmasked faces, etc.  I think that slowly reduced the grip of the Brotherhood 
over time and it'd gotten less until a recent influx"

  
say @Hemp - I'd like to provide useful feedback.

Yinadele claims, "@Hemp - I'd like to provide useful feedback."

  

Sparkles states, "Now, cooperative internally? Maybe? But overall? The goal seems to have been of
late antagonizing literally everyone. There doesn't feel like a way to interact with the current 
Brotherhood from the outside."

  

A male voice says, "I think the problem was in this iteration, it hit too many powerful players in
too small of a time. If all the guildleaders get robbed, they're going to do something about it. It 
was fun as heck, but from a self preservation point, it was a bit of a misstep."

  

KHARONYX claims, "Yes, too many guilds targeted."

  

Kinaed says, "The first one is that on TI, players are supposed to OOCly take care about other
people's play experience. It's even built into our PK rules to a degree."

  

HemprootMadnesS claims, "There's a lack of phomes to account for ambience so we hit all of those
randomly...sadly."

  
say I think the biggest issue is getting pushed into constant activity through chain-thefts and 
attacking new players to get an influx of power, which progressively stirs more and more older 
players into action- Which they appreciate! But, the method and OOC responses necessary to HANDLE 
so much aggression is problematic and, frankly, has made issue.

Yinadele claims, "I think the biggest issue is getting pushed into constant activity through chain
-thefts and attacking new players to get an influx of power, which progressively stirs more and more 
older players into action- Which they appreciate! But, the method and OOC responses necessary to 
HANDLE so much aggression is problematic and, frankly, has made issue."

  

Venge states, "I think.... As a former antagonist this is just something general i'd like to chip in
on in a really general way. When you are doing antagonistic RP particularly with other players. You 
should be taking those actions with an eye towards creating RP for other people and also spread out 
to allow various threads to resolve themselves at least in part."

  
say You shouldn't need to constantly hit all the phomes- May I use a specific example?

Yinadele asks, "You shouldn't need to constantly hit all the phomes- May I use a specific example?"

  

Sparkles states, "There aren't NPC houses here for ambiance."

  

Kinaed claims, "There aren't supposed to be 'random targets', they're supposed to be targets that
make sense because someone has done something. Random targets are what happens to NPCs. That's one 
issue."

  

Sparkles says, "So yes, everyone you rob is a player."

  

Preposterous states, "Brotherhood should be making spoopy deals with people not in it, underhand
dealings, stuff like that. It isnt all robbery."

  

Otter says, "Playing a southside character, southside RP can be rough to find in general."

  

Violet states, "I'm really grateful for the way it's increased intensity of the game, but I wish we
could get more meaningful RP out of it rather than just attacking everyone except themselves. The 
actions of one particular banned player have united practically the whole grid against the BCG in a 
short period of time. "

  

Venge says, "When there is so much going on that nobody can track it all that's not really fun for
anybody at least in my opinion."

  

Chipotle states, "I will say that I do feel primarily that the OOC distaste regarding Brotherhood
action in any cases was mostly due to the influence of the banned player, and the IC distaste was 
because of the massive damage done to so many people without much possible recourse other than 
manhunts. I will also say that the Brotherhood would benefit a lot from veteran players holding it 
up, because if I didn't have people guiding me on my way up in any Guild, I'd have trouble. To put 
it in more "aggressive" terms, I think if veteran players were present there, it would help a lot on 
both sides of the conflict, and given there are MANY veteran players NOT contributing directly to 
the Brotherhood, it makes perfect sense you guys would be struggling to hit the mark."

  

Venge says, "Spreading things out, letting people RP fallout is a really really good idea with
antagonistic characters as it allows for much better bang for buck for various individual intents."

  
Kinaed nods at Violet.

  
Venamelia nods.

  

Venge claims, "Acts not intents but I think that gets what I was trying to say across."

  

Murrmurs nods with Chipolte

  
Vitamin nods.

  

HemprootMadnesS says, "The biggest problem is honestly the lack of a pipeline between North and
south."

  

Chipotle claims, "I am incapable of joining in on the Brotherhood side to help that side of the
conflict, but I also would appreciate more people going there."

  

Jiraiya claims, "I don't think anything has gone awry too far either. There were strikes and
counterstrikes"

  

Violet asks, "Pipeline? Can you explain more, Hemp?"

  

HemprootMadnesS claims, "There's no economy. There's barely any rp."

  

Chipotle states, "There are few opportunities for small-scale conflict. Everything is dire or dead."

  

HemprootMadnesS states, "So, let's say I hypothetically actually get things going in the southside
and a newbie shows up."

  

KHARONYX claims, "He means connecting the north to the south somehow to give people an incentive to
go/do things related to Southside, I think."

  

HemprootMadnesS says, "I give that newbie something to sell to the northside to foster some courier
rp."

  

HemprootMadnesS states, "No one the northside is going to touch that with a single silver piece."

  

Kinaed claims, "So, I don't want to call anyone out, but I do note that there were several members
of the BH who were kicked out as well, so some of the complaints I fielded were the sense that the 
'new guard' felt like a bit of a group of OOC friends from another game who came in and decided to 
take over a guild with a very 'us against them' mentality."

  

HemprootMadnesS claims, "So, it stays stale and that newbie leaves."

  

Jiraiya claims, "Hemp - I feel you did a fair amount to fix that though. Given time it would grow.
And you did get 25 gold out of one of my chars."

  

KHARONYX claims, "Like something you CAN'T do Northside but can be achieved at the south that people
will need."

  

Jiraiya claims, "Which may have gone to the banned player but still"

  

Kinaed says, "This may or may not be true, but fundamentally, as far as I can tell, everyone on TI
is happy for conflicting RP for the most part, they just don't like it to feel OOC and 
unreciprocated."

  

Venamelia wonders, "When has anyone used the blackmarket last? No one wants mage ashes to protect
themselves? >:D"

  

Murrmurs nods with Kinaed.

  

Otter says, "Oh, that's a good point. Basically all trade goes on in the northside unless you're
trying to sell magical items or something. And you'll probably get killed for that in the south too 
it's not any safer."

  

Kinaed says, "And sometimes the perception around these things is hard to manage, but I do think a
lot of that feeling about OOC antagonism, not IC, is at the feet of the removed player."

  

Preposterous claims, "People who normally wouldn't mind the brotherhood too much and do play in
southside were put off by the actions of recent stuff, and met with aggression despite being 
southsiders themselves. It is hard to complain that there isn't Southside RP, when people tried and 
were driven away as if they didn't belong. When they did."

  

HemprootMadnesS says, "Honestly, I think that one players action created a weird echochamber
elsewhere and it resulted in a lot of complaints."

  

Wimpled claims, "What Preposterous has said."

  
Temi nods.

  

HemprootMadnesS trails off, "The southside is supposed to be aggresive though..."

  

Civetta trails off, "The winner takes literally all nature of the present conflict is a touch...
frustrating"

  

Murrmurs nods with Preposterous. The BCG has at other times been very involved without being target
number one.

  

Violet says, "Not to it's own."

  

HemprootMadnesS trails off, "Northside is where you go for safe, controlled, guards..."

  

Murrmurs states, "No, Southside is just poor."

  

Venamelia says, "Yeah, Hemproot you are right. That single player was too much. Did not even make
the slightest of difference between who is treating southsider well and who not. Just war against 
everyone."

  

Kinaed states, "Hence their removal - because we primarily ban when people are systemically bad for
the environment. Otherwise, we try to manage by upskilling players on expectations and rules."

  
Kinaed nods at HemprootMadnesS.

  

Wimpled states, "Right, but there's a level of protection that the Brotherhood offers to the
Southside."

  

Sparkles claims, "Also I feel like that's inaccurate. There are totally people who can and have
worked as intermediaries. The issue is ... once it's been put into play that any interaction with 
the BH folks leads to maiming and murder ... no one wants to."

  

Murrmurs nods with Wimpled.

  

Wimpled says, "It's the wild west compared to north lithmore, but they take care of their own."

  

Violet says, "Southside also has normal folks, people living their lives, folks trying to make their
way in the world, etc."

  

HemprootMadnesS states, "There -should- be a level protection."

  

Wimpled claims, "Which is where the new brotherhood has come into conflict."

  

Murrmurs states, "BCG makes southside function; not always makes northside break."

Chipotle says, "That one player's actions were wide and spanned across multiple characters, and
likely negatively influenced your play experience, and other Brotherhood and Southside characters' 
play experiences. I think that that influence will die off in time, and anything you build will do 
better."

  

Jiraiya claims, "I always figured the brotherhood saw themselves as protectors of the tsouthside."

  

Kinaed claims, "It could be that a lot of what people are concerned about will just die down
naturally as we get back into the swing of things without the banned player."

  

HemprootMadnesS says, "When the brotherhood is 2 newbies...not so much."

  

Temi claims, "Might be good to revisit in another week or two, see how things shape up.  With some
encouragement for those who are interested in Southside RP, especially veterans, to give it another 
try."

  

Wimpled states, "Because it's turned on resident south siders."

  
Kinaed nods at Jiraiya.

  
Kinaed states to Jiraiya, "And the protectors of each other, and the poor."

  

Foodie claims, "I am kinda new here so I don't understand the black market. Sorry"

  
Violet starts writing a note. (This is an OOC action)

  

Murrmurs nods with Wimpled.

Preposterous claims, "Southside is poor. And they band together and take care of each other because
they don't trust the others to do it. It isn't a free for all aggression toward one another."

  

Kinaed says, "It is *not* generally thematic or common for there to be crimewaves Northside.
Northside is well patrolled and should be pretty safe."

  
William is idle.

  

Radiune says, "I tended to think of the BCG as like the Yakuza, with Southside being a territory
that was wrested away from northern control and essentially 'protected' and cared for by members of 
the community. I liked to think that there was ultimately a collaboration with the southern 
community, but I feel like if they just attack each other that aesthetic is ruined."

  
Kinaed nods at Temi.

  
say Southside is not supposed to bring the entire guard down on it and attack the entire uppercrust 
of society constantly. I can also confirm that many resident and old Southsiders got really heavily 
burned during what the Brotherhood did. Again, it's really a matter of TOO much.

Yinadele states, "Southside is not supposed to bring the entire guard down on it and attack the
entire uppercrust of society constantly. I can also confirm that many resident and old Southsiders 
got really heavily burned during what the Brotherhood did. Again, it's really a matter of TOO much."

  
Kinaed nods at Yinadele.

  

Chipotle says, "I also want to state... there is a difference between "aggressive" and "cleaning out
entire mansions, killing everyone inside, and leaving half-dead cops on the hospital's doorsteps.""

  
Violet finishes her note.

  

Chipotle claims, "You can antagonize without that much escalation."

  

Preposterous states, "In fact, Brotherhood is supposed to help protect the Southside, but the most
recent groups seemed to... be aggressive toward everyone, Southsiders included."

  

Kinaed states, "Yeah, I asked the player who was banned to reduce the thieving to once per week or
so to allow people time to investigate instances, etc, and he just flat out ignored the request."

  

HemprootMadnesS says, "It sounds like everyone has an idea of what they want the southside and
brotherhood to be but doesn't want to do it."

  

HemprootMadnesS claims, "SO, it's just newbie's having a hard go at it."

  

Kuzco says, "I'd totally take over if I didn't have a reeve."

  

Violet states, "Some of us have been. TRYING."

  
Deedee states to Kinaed, "If anything, he seemed to up the pace."

  

Violet states, "But it's hard, honestly."

  

Jiraiya claims, "Hemp - that's true. But we appreciate you trying."

  

Otter says, "Okay so I'm hearing this but also like historically isn't that kind of something that
the Reeves have done to Southside? Just come down and murdered loads of people? That's in multiple 
city lore bits."

  

Sparkles says, "I'd personally like to see more 'The Mafia' and less 'Assassin's Creed' but that's
just me personally."

  
Kinaed nods at Otter.

  

Chipotle claims, "Specifically some of the suggestions are specifically to help you not attract
extreme IC attention and immediate, blazing crusades of retribution."

  

Temi states, "We have added a lot of code to make it have to be a bigger deal to get Reeves down in
southside."

  

Preposterous says, "No, it is what the Southside is. The current group changed that. We have tons of
old southsiders. They aren't supportive of what has happened recently for a reason."

  

KHARONYX claims, "Yes, but the Mafia taxes people. People are complaining that the Brotherhood is
supposed to be peaceful towards Southsiders. I understand what Hemp is trying to do. Pay up, get 
protection, stay in good graces like the mob or a gang."

  

Temi says, "The gangs and such are stronger than we might have otherwise made them to keep some code
protection, if not guaranteed to be enough to go up against the focused strength of the reeves"

  

Murrmurs claims, "On Otter's note: A big thing is that the BCG keeps matters contained *because*
Knights/Reeves come down a'slaying when there's trouble they can't sort."

  

Sparkles muses, "But that's been done before?"

  

Venge says, "Ah yes. The good old days. Where whenever things got stolen the reeves would
collectively take a walk down southside."

  

Kinaed claims, "I think some people do want to do it. I've heard that the new guard who came in
kicked out old players without even RPing with them. To me, that's not an IC removal of someone from 
a guild, for example, so I wouldn't say no one wants to play BH except the new players."

  

Violet states, "I've noticed a decrease in the amount of old-guard southside players because of the
recent conflict, unfortunately."

  
Kinaed nods at Violet.

  

HemprootMadnesS states, "I mean, the knights and reeves  raided the brotherhood base...it's still a
thing."

  

Chipotle states, "However, I absolutely do agree that 2 newbies running an entire Brotherhood is
difficult to work out - but you've had barely any time to really get things done! I think in a week 
or two it will improve."

  
say I would really pretty well tell you that 4 other people talking here are southside 
players/characters, even if they're not brotherhood themselves. I think making contacts and 
recruiting them would've been far wiser. Again- I think you wanted to go for far more immediate 
action, and now, people... Responded, alongside one player getting banned for rulebreaking in it 
leaving the guild much smarter.

Yinadele states, "I would really pretty well tell you that 4 other people talking here are southside
players/characters, even if they're not brotherhood themselves. I think making contacts and 
recruiting them would've been far wiser. Again- I think you wanted to go for far more immediate 
action, and now, people... Responded, alongside one player getting banned for rulebreaking in it 
leaving the guild much smarter."

  

Sparkles says, "But that only happens, historically, when people push things too far."

  

KHARONYX states, "Yes, but the reason the Knights were involved was because of IC."

  

Radiune claims, "The Yakuza gave massive aid to people during the Tohoku Earthquake in Japan in
2011, sending food, water, and blankets to people - that's kind of what I'm comparing the 
Brotherhood to. They're still a crime group that murders, steals, racketeers, etc. But they also do 
things like that for communities."

  
William is no longer idle.
William has returned from AFK.

  

Preposterous has a southsider, yes.

  

HemprootMadnesS states, "What I'm trying to say is we're newbie's. You're talking about contracts
and all this rp that we don't get and don't know how to do."

  

Kuzco states, "They are also supposed to be fanatically religious."

  

Radiune is a southsider.

  

Jiraiya claims, "Can we all agree 1) that the current brotherhood is very valued and needed. 2)
there's nothing wrong with shit disturbing but by the same token there's nothing wrong to responding 
to shit disturbing in kind. 3) we agree to play things by ear going forward."

  
say RP with dudes instead of stabbing them!

Yinadele pontificates, "RP with dudes instead of stabbing them!"

  

Kinaed claims, "Guys, I want to note that Hemproot was NOT the person initiating a lot of what you
saw this week."

  

HemprootMadnesS sighs.

  

Jiraiya finishes abruptly, "Hemp - you're doing a great job"

  
Kinaed nods at Jiraiya.

  

Chipotle claims, "I think you are experiencing a lot of difficulties that were caused by someone
other than yourself, Hemproot."

  

Wimpled claims, "There are still veterans in the South Side that you can hook in with, Hemp, and
that are interested in hooking in with you."

  
Kinaed nods at Chipotle.

  

KHARONYX says, "But the Yakuza still racketeer and steal from the Japanese people, do protection
rackets and tax people."

  

Violet claims, "Hemp, I would love to help you out if you're willing. I know you're trying your best
and would love to make things easier."

  

Radiune says, "True, Khar."

  
say Yes, I know who Hemp is/is playing. But, very seriously, I think just going to a lot of the 
southside characters and taking things slower would -really- help you and make you less frustrated.

Yinadele says, "Yes, I know who Hemp is/is playing. But, very seriously, I think just going to a lot
of the southside characters and taking things slower would -really- help you and make you less 
frustrated."

  

Preposterous claims, "What Wimpled said."

  

Violet states, "And if that can't be IC, don't be afraid to reach out to us older players OOC. We
all benefit from an active and involved BCG."

  
say I'm not trying to attack you, and, in fact, I'm playing my first character!

Yinadele exclaims, "I'm not trying to attack you, and, in fact, I'm playing my first character!"

  
Kinaed smiles.

  

KHARONYX says, "What I mean is, I don't think it's right to blame him for not being entirely
friendly and accept everyone Southside with hugs."

  

Wimpled states, "I've had a lot scroll past here, so I'm not sure entirely where this whole thing
has gone, but there are ways to draw more people South Side if that is the issue."

  

KHARONYX states, "Criminal Syndicates don't work like that."

  

Wimpled says, "And I think if you approach some of the veterans with this as an IC problem, they may
be able to assist."

  
Kinaed nods at KHARONYX.

  

Murrmurs trails off, "Rain, Safir, Aios... Loads of existing SS chars with great hooks"

  

HemprootMadnesS claims, "I'm still complicit in all that happened and I take that to heart. "

  

Venamelia says, "Yeah, maybe we should stop on the topic here, there was a third one, was there not?
And we reached the full hour, which is 1am for me."

  
Kinaed nods at HemprootMadnesS.

  

Preposterous says, "I never said they should be accepted with hugs."

  
say Nobody is, but it's about hitting a happy medium.

Yinadele states, "Nobody is, but it's about hitting a happy medium."

  

Venamelia queries, "Or am I confused?"

  

Murrmurs claims, "Hemp- thanks for taking this on and trying, despite all of the mess around BCG in
the moment."

  

HemprootMadnesS claims, "I imagine the best way to describe this is imagine having a shitload of
tools and no idea how to use them."

  
say Here's a helpful thing- If/when you do a heist, you probably get all sorts of extra items like 
clothing and small, useless objects.

Yinadele claims, "Here's a helpful thing- If/when you do a heist, you probably get all sorts of
extra items like clothing and small, useless objects."

  
Kinaed says to HemprootMadnesS, "Yes, let's move on. It's the top of the hour. If anyone wants a
trans back, I'm happy to provide, but I'd like to continue the meeting for anyone who can stay."

  
say Usually, those are actually pretty precious to players- You can ransom stuff like that.

Yinadele claims, "Usually, those are actually pretty precious to players- You can ransom stuff like
that."

  
say use anonymous profiles, letters, and messengers.

Yinadele says, "Use anonymous profiles, letters, and messengers."

  

Deedee states, "And many of the tools are broken"

  

HemprootMadnesS claims, "DUde. I haven't even had anyone show me half of that stuff."

  

Radiune states, "I'll stick around! I'm interested to hear what people are thinking. "

HemprootMadnesS says, "Like, we're gasping for air and being put down like dogs."

  
say You can try to dig up dirt on big boy Reeves and make them unable to hit you through the plot 
system potentially, or through schmoozing.

Yinadele states, "You can try to dig up dirt on big boy Reeves and make them unable to hit you
through the plot system potentially, or through schmoozing."

  

KHARONYX claims, "I think they just don't know how."

  

Preposterous claims, "Right. Ransom stuff back to people, blackmail them, do SOMETHING that creates
RP for them instead of just stealing all of their stuff and leaving nasty moods."

  
say Okay, I drop/finish, but OOCly, I'm also willing to help out.

Yinadele says, "Okay, I drop/finish, but OOCly, I'm also willing to help out."

  

Jiraiya claims, "If a veteran player could roll a brotherhood char that might be good too. i can't."

  

Kinaed states, "Okay, let's let this one roll. A lot of people have said some important things, but
I don't think we have any silver bullets to kill our werewolf. Let's let it go for a week or so and 
see where we're at now that we've lost some antagonism."

  

HemprootMadnesS states, "I appreciate the feedback greatly."

  
Kinaed asks of Temi, "Can you retrans anyone who wants to go back so I can concentrate on the next
topics?"

  

Kinaed pontificates, "If you need a trans back, please ask Temi!"

  
Temi nods at Kinaed.

  
Kinaed claims to Naomi, "Okay, you're up next "

  

Chipotle declaims, "I will do my best to help these issues too!!"

  
Kinaed smiles at Temi.

  

Kinaed gives HemprootMadnesS a hug. "Thanks for sticking in there."

  

Chipotle attempts to surround the weed elemental in copious showings of affection.

  

Naomi claims, "I'd just like to float out a friendly reminder that it's policy to set moods when
crimes are committed, as per help moods."

  

Naomi claims, "...That's all."

  
Kinaed nods at Naomi.

  
Violet starts editing a note. (This is an OOC action)

  
Violet finishes her note.

  

Chipotle claims, "I will say that the moods I found were pretty good, personally."

  
Kinaed says to Naomi, "Yes please. Moods. Let people know what happened (or even that SOMETHING
happened) ICly so they can react"

  
Kinaed nods at Chipotle.

  

Kinaed says, "We had reoccuring issues with the banned player of not leaving moods. I didn't notice
anything out of place with other players."

  
Venamelia nods.

  

Kinaed says, "But it's a fair reminder because without them, there's nothing in a room to say
anything happened."

  
Kinaed claims to Sparkles, "You're up! Please introduce us to your topic."

  

Chipotle says, "Specifically, the most recent "occurrence" was well done; the combat issue I raised
earlier was my only real complaint and not even necessarily the fault of the players as much as the 
system, imo."

  

Chipotle states, "Everything else was great, and I enjoyed the RP around it a lot."

  
Kinaed smiles at Chipotle.

  
Venamelia has gone AFK.

  
Kinaed asks of Sparkles, "Did you see the request to kick off your topic above? "

  

Sparkles says, "I think my topic was already kind of worked into things already, honestly."

  
Kinaed pontificates to Sparkles, "Okay  Thanks!"

  
Kinaed declares to Murrmurs, "That means you're up!"

  

Murrmurs's OOC topic:
Context:
 As a returning player events like the Civil War, every single Knight Venerable betraying their oath
to kill the queen, and the ongoing matter with Vandago have felt very abstract. My overarrching 
sense has been of there being some background narrative that has been going on for months with 
little to no tangible impact on the game world or play from day to day.

My questions for staff and Pbase: 
  Are there any ways beyond occasional IC Board posts to provide updates or context for ongoing
kingdom events? 
  Beyond IC Archive, is it possible for there to be any narrative tl;drLast Time on Dragonball Z
that describes the state of kingdom-wide affairs at a glance?

  
Venamelia has returned from AFK.

  
Kinaed states to Murrmurs, "Oh, I think we had a few help files like 'help timeline' that need a bit
of a polish."

  
Deedee nods in agreement with Kinaed.

  

Temi claims, "It was very very heavy for a while when it first happened, and the general pbase
consensus was that it was too much, and they wanted to back it off a little bit to more background 
stuff"

  

Venge says, "I will say that as a returning player I found myself absolutely lost as to what had
happened."

  
Kinaed nods at Temi.

  

Murrmurs nods with Venge.

  

Kinaed questions, "Is it possible that I could ask for player help with updating the "HELP TIMELINE"
and maybe some individual help files for historical events?"

  

Venge says, "And that it felt like a lot of what *should* be available as general background info
was *not* available in any fashion. "

  

Temi says, "So that's the state you came in on, without the exhaustion others had leading them up to
it"

  

(visnet) Player Anonymous: Is there a way to delete rumors from the rumors I've purchased? Would be
nice to clean up my list of rumors a bit.

  

Preposterous states, "I believe it was discussed some time back (probably before you stepped back in
fully) that it was requested it be kept more in the backgound because everyone was feeling very... 
uh... sensitive when it all happened."

  

Kinaed says, "I think certain players *cough* Sparkles *cough* are very good with TI lore and could
really be helpful to recruit for something like that."

  

Murrmurs claims, "The single line that an event is ongoing does not provide contextual clarity to
new or returning players in how to shape their RP or how to understand the game world around them. 
That is the particular issue I would like to address."

  

HemprootMadnesS says, "As a new player, I have no idea what any of that is. There's a lot of lore
I've been looking at though and it's an incredible amount to take in so...I think a tl;dr would be 
super solid for newbie's too. Maybe even a reoccurring rumor that people could check to see how 
things are oging and what's going."

  

Sparkles states, "It's true, happy to help."

  

Temi asks, "I have tried to provide at least some context in the plot headers.  Do you know how to
review what's in there?"

  

Kinaed claims, "I'll post a note to the General Board asking for volunteers, then maybe the Queen
can ICly commission something or OOCly."

  

Murrmurs nods with Hemp. I had to intentionally dig as a player familiar with setting to get some of
the context.

  
Kinaed nods at Temi.

  

Radiune states, "I feel like some recent events might need helpfiles to themselves - I'm aware of
the Daravi Vortex, for example, but I honestly OOCly know very little about it even when it should 
be something I should know abut in character as I was 'technically' present in the city at that 
time.. It's something that still sees some mention in RP too."

Civetta states, "That... seems like a good idea... I have had to aprise characters who have had a 
-very- good reason to be in the loop about those things. It was super sentimental RP but still"

  

Temi states, "Plot header review 56"

  

Sparkles wonders, "Maybe bring back the position of Court Historian?"

  
say @Kinaed I can provide most things in the past 2 OOC months!! But, very serious suggestion- Can 
'Help Timeline' be added to cgen as a first-room suggestion help file?

Yinadele asks, "@Kinaed I can provide most things in the past 2 OOC months!! But, very serious
suggestion- Can 'Help Timeline' be added to cgen as a first-room suggestion help file?"

  
Deedee says to Kinaed, "The Queen is dead. Long live the Kings"

  
say I didn't find it more than a month into playtime.

Yinadele says, "I didn't find it more than a month into playtime."

  
say until*

Yinadele claims, "Until*"

  
Kinaed says to Deedee, "I know, I just like the sound of a Queen. besides, no one knows what the
King gets up to at night "

  

Deedee winks at kind. 

  

Violet wonders, "Also updating the help people files on notable NPCs to reflect what's happened
recently would be nice?"

  

HemprootMadnesS trails off, "Empress would be cooler..."

  
Kinaed grins at HemprootMadnesS.

  

Venamelia states, "Yeah, no idea about the vortex and I would only know some of the contents of the
Queen's Death when I had access to the Reeve plot history."

  

Deedee suggest, "Sultan?"

  
Kinaed nods at Yinadele.

  

Temi says, "I think there's a problem with having sooo much lore and info, and it's hard to condense
down to what is important to any individual player"

  

Preposterous says, "Grand Poobah."

  

KHARONYX claims, "The vortex is a pretty big event for some IC characters."

  

Kinaed states, "I think if we add HELP TIMELINE to the new player stuff, we need to keep it up to
date, and I'm very certain that will be hard."

  

Radiune states, "'Empress of the Five Just Kingdoms of the Urth' sounds like a badass title."

  

Kinaed says, "But I'll get together a group of players to be our historians and see about some in
-game rewards in thanks for helping."

  

Temi says, "We should update the helpfiles, but I can't promise too much for my own ability to keep
up with things for at least a while"

  

Sparkles says, "Also, as a suggestion for folks who want to ask about stuffs IC, do come ask the
Bards! It's our job ICly to record stuffs. And I'd love to chat with people."

  

Temi claims, "Player historians would certainly help sort out what you guys think is actually
important."

  
Temi grins.

  
Deedee nods.

  
Kinaed nods at Temi.

  

Venamelia states, "Or when people annoy you with their rumors. Ask the bards >.>"

  

Desert says, "Sparkles I have tried to but not with a lot of success."

  

Wimpled claims, "In addition to the bards, talk up the elderly."

  

Murrmurs notes, 'I'm principally asking for a highly visible staff-curated explanation of current
state of affairs that contextualize RP, rather than historical breakdown of deep context or lore 
related.'

  

KHARONYX claims, "Or just go to the bards to give them RP anyhow."

  

Kinaed states, "Okay, that is the list of our topics today. I feel a bit sad that I couldn't easily
close any of them with a flick of the wrist or some quick words of wisdom, but I want to thank 
everyone for their contributions to today's discussions."

  
Temi wonders to Murrmurs, "And the plot header is not what you want?"

  

(visnet) Player Arlen: They naturally go away over time. But, you could squash them to remove them
from your list.

  

Kuzco says, "I wrote a book precisely to help people get a grasp of what happened on 2018"

  

Kinaed claims, "I also want to reiterate - it is great to have an active Brotherhood back in game,
and I want to thank the new players who are taking that on."

  

Murrmurs claims, "That it wasn't visible until being noted is the challenge, Temi."

  

Chipotle claims, "I think a lot of long-term, fundamental problems were dug up a bit so that they
can be assisted and nursed over time. It's a process."

  

HemprootMadnesS claims, "The books are quite honestly my favorite part of this game. As a new
player, the cool player written lore and weirdness is sweet."

  

Temi says, "I don't follow."

  

Foodie claims, "Grand high Magnificence "

  

Kuzco states, "The book system is very good, admittedly"

  

Kinaed states, "I'll have a look at the topic about combat and coding during arrests, balancing with
flee, etc on the forums as well as reread this chat since it got away from me several times with how 
quickly I can read versus how quickly updates came in."

  

KHARONYX states, "More books."

  

Radiune states, "When I first started playing this game I probably spent about 8 hours just reading
helpfiles before I entered the world. No joke. Such a rich atmosphere."

  
Kinaed nods at Radiune.

  

Otter claims, "Books are illegal."

  

Kuzco claims, "For anyone who's confused about what happened, read 'The Asglen Crisis', it's in the
Grand Library"

  

Temi says, "It's always there, and should include the basic synopsis of what's currently happening,
if not all of the background"

  
Kinaed queries to Otter, "Only some books are? Or has something happened ICly that I don't know
about?"

  

Kuzco says, "Then go ask old players, chiefly the bards"

  
Kinaed nods at Kuzco.

  
sayto Kinaed I think even at it's current state it's SUPER helpful.
Yinadele states to Kinaed, "I think even at it's current state it's SUPER helpful."

  
Kinaed smiles at Yinadele.

  
say It helps inform on a lot of 'modern history' PCs might know that isn't listed anywhere else.

Yinadele says, "It helps inform on a lot of 'modern history' PCs might know that isn't listed
anywhere else."

  

Kuzco states, "Having the city lore skill also helps a lot with learning history"

  
say And it's COOL!

Yinadele declaims, "And it's COOL!"

  

Chipotle claims, "The IC lore books are amazing."

  

Radiune claims, "I especially love hunting forbidden literature ICly"

  
say They are, too. There's just a big era gap between the IC lore books and now.

Yinadele states, "They are, too. There's just a big era gap between the IC lore books and now."

  

Venge claims, "Oh! I would like to say that i'm not a huge fan of giving city lore an MV cost."

  

Radiune says, "It's one of my favorite things to do! Haha."

  

Venge claims, "As that really kinda disenctivizes the use of the skill."

  

Kuzco questions, "To report it to the Order, right Radiune?"

  

Radiune claims, "Oh, of course."

  

Kinaed states, "I know this is a low time in the game's curve of 'fun play' for some people, but I
would like to ask anyone who has some spare time to consider writing a review on Reddit's R/MUD 
thread. I don't think our TMC reviews are being posted for some reason."

  

Kuzco claims, "And for the love of God write rumors when intersting stuff happens"

  

Kinaed says, "But if you do, you can help us grow the game and bring in more players, which will let
us do some things that we can't do at our current pbase size "

  

Kuzco states, "The thieves have been actually very decent about that"

  

Chipotle states, "City lore is a really cool skill that has almost no mechanical benefit and I wish
it wasn't disincentivized in that way, yeah."

  

Preposterous says, "Rumors, yes."

  
Kinaed nods at Kuzco.

  

Kuzco claims, "At one point I realised I had written a third of all current rumors, last week"

  
Kinaed muses to Chipotle, "I want to hear more about that. Please drop me a pboard about what you
mean regarding city lore?"

  
Deedee claims to Kinaed, "I figured out why TI isn't showing up on grapevine by the way, posted a
bugboard about it. Might need Az"

  

Kuzco declares, "City lore is very useful in plots!"

  

Sparkles says, "City lore is helpful in plots and stuff, not every benefit needs to be mechanical I
think."

  

Kinaed queries, "TI isn't showing up on the grapevine? *doesn't compute*"

  

Radiune claims, "I really, really want to pool lore but I'm kind of scarce on learn slots for, ah,
reasons, and I'm worried I'll miss out on something else, so there's that tradeoff. It's something 
I'll need to think about more."

  
Kinaed nods at Sparkles.

  

Deedee says, "(https://grapevine.haus/)"

  
Kinaed says to Radiune, "You can always look for a loremaster in-game and ask"

  

KHARONYX states, "Ask the bards."

  

Chipotle trails off, "Specifically, I find that it is very niche but also very cool, and I wish that
it was free to look around and... ask NPCs about it, if that's what 'look lore' is supposed to 
represent? Search on the street, recollect memories... etc"

  

Kinaed says, "Oh yeah, them. Odd, I know I set up a profile."

  

Kinaed claims, "I'll check the bug board. "

  
Deedee claims to Kinaed, "It's a protocol issue"

  

Kinaed states, "Okay we're running out of time."

  
Kinaed states to Deedee, "I'll see if one of our excellent staff can figure it out as a priority."

Kinaed states, "Thank you, everyone, for attending this week's OOC Chat."

Kinaed claims, "I look forward to seeing you all next week, same time, same place "

Venge claims, "Thank you for having us and waking up for this *hugs*"
  
Sparkles waves.
  
Desert waves.
  
Venge declaims, "Get some sleep Kin!"

Venamelia waves.
  
Radiune says, "Thank you! It's been a good discussion, I think. I'll try to be back next week."
  
Radiune waves.

  
Deedee waves.

  

Kinaed muses, "Have fun, and please be aware of the RP experience of those you play with and do your
best to make it a mutually fun experience at all times, okay?"

  
Venamelia nods.

  

Kinaed waves cheerfully.

  

Kinaed trails off, "Returning everyone in 3..."

Violet hugs everyone.

  

Kinaed trails off, "2..."

  

Kinaed trails off, "1..."