Latency clarification

[galaxgal]

The only way that latents "awaken with time" that I'm aware of is through QP expenditure - as per HELP QP, you can spend 50 (!) QP to awaken a latent mage. (It does not have to be your character, afaik.)

A character being latent, imo, SHOULD be a big deal. A latent character is someone who is either in spiritual peril or has special potential (depending on your IC perspective.) But there is little reinforcing that if latents can go for over 1000 RP hours without ever being noticed by either side. If the game's helpfiles, which are the 'common knowledge' of all characters ICly, say otherwise, there is a disconnect there.

[Alpharius]

There are no further instructions than that for latents, no, you understanding here is incorrect. On mage side there is no latent-radar either, so if latents don't play the part, they won't be found (random awakenings are against policy afaik).

Actually, there are because latent players have said before you get pvents/commands telling you that you are a latent. So, when you're a latent... yes, the game does tell you specific things. The game doesn't just leave you to figure it out on your own what you are.

And I didn't make the thing up about latent life being short, it's a direct quote from the helpfile (which is about the only helpfile about latency that the non mage players can find). So if we now think that latentcy is perfectly fine and ignorable, well, we should at least update the helpfile accordingly

Which is exactly what I suggested. There have been latents who've lived long, long lives as perfectly normal people because they are perfectly normal people until they are awakened.

As for latents playing the part, there is a difference between RPing very OBVIOUS mageish things and RPing being different than the rest. It's up to mage players to figure out who could be latent. It's not supposed to be easy from my understanding, nor are mages supposed to be able to have a 'latent radar' like you say. Just like how Orderties/Inquisitors investigate and find out who's a mage or not through RP and IC, I think mage players can take the time and RP/investigate people who are showing signs of being different from others and try to make contact with them. It should be risky. It should be hard. I do not think coded ways for mages to figure out who's latent or not should be necessary.

Just because latents don't make it obvious doesn't mean they're not playing the part - actually, I believe it is supposed to be discreet and understandable by only mages who can see the signs instead of the general populace. What makes you think latents aren't playing their part?

[Alpharius]

Also, there is actually a detailed help file for latency that suggests exactly what entails 'strange happenings' when you are a latent.

"help threshold of flesh"

"Until it is crossed, the magic within a person is
dormant and sleeping - for all intents and purposes, there is no difference
between a latent mage (one who has not crossed the Threshold of Flesh) and
a normal person. Animals might react to them strangely at times, candles
might snuff out at their entry, but it is otherwise extremely difficult to
detect a latent mage."

[galaxgal]

There are no further instructions than that for latents, no, you understanding here is incorrect. On mage side there is no latent-radar either, so if latents don't play the part, they won't be found (random awakenings are against policy afaik).

Actually, there are because latent players have said before you get pvents/commands telling you that you are a latent. So, when you're a latent... yes, the game does tell you specific things. The game doesn't just leave you to figure it out on your own what you are.

What Puciek is citing are the game's helpfiles, which have been said to be the IC 'common knowledge' of all player characters:

Code: Select all

                            Helpfile for Latent

Latent mages are mages without the ability to cast spells.  Generally,
they do not know they are mages, though they may feel 'different' from a
young age, or inexplicable things may happen to them.

On TI, latents generally don't last long unless they find a true mage to
awaken them, granting them access to their innate powers.

(Subject area: information            Last modified: Fri May  9 04:01:58 2014)

What is being cited in this thread is the disconnect between that helpfile and the reality of how the game works: Latent mages can ignore their status indefinitely with no consequence.

[Alpharius]

What is being cited in this thread is the disconnect between that helpfile and the reality of how the game works: Latent mages can ignore their status indefinitely with no consequence.

Yes, hence why I suggested that part should be changed since it is not entirely true.

[galaxgal]

What is being cited in this thread is the disconnect between that helpfile and the reality of how the game works: Latent mages can ignore their status indefinitely with no consequence.

Yes, hence why I suggested that part should be changed since it is not entirely true.

Fair, but at that point, why even tax characters RPXP to excuse themselves from the latent lottery if it doesn't really affect anything? It's basically just fee to ensure your character can go Order if desired, since AFAIK latents can't.

[Alpharius]

Fair, but at that point, why even tax characters RPXP to excuse themselves from the latent lottery if it doesn't really affect anything? It's basically just fee to ensure your character can go Order if desired, since AFAIK latents can't.

Now, this is a part that I could agree on - giving people a chance to refuse latency without a RPXP cost. I do not think a RPXP cost should be necessary to roll a non-mage, non-latent character (considering they are supposed to be in the majority, with latency/mage being extremely rare among the populace). If a RPXP cost has to be involved, I'd even argue that it should be the other way around and opting out should be the natural option while rolling for latency (or maybe opting in) should be what costs RPXP.

As for latency not affecting anything, it has the potential to be used by other mages/characters as blackmail IMO. AFAIK, awakening doesn't necessarily have to be consensual. There's always that tiny chance that someone will figure out you're a latent (or suspect you), then try to point the Order towards you... or even awaken you against your will (which would be interesting RP).

EDIT: And again, latency is an interesting concept to RP because you can RP a completely normal person and eventually end up a mage. It opens up new possibilities for your character that others don't have, and the opportunity to become a mage down the road... which is an advantage that you could argue should need a RPXP cost. IMO, latent isn't so risky as to need RPXP to remove that 'risk'.

[galaxgal]

As for latency not affecting anything, it has the potential to be used by other mages/characters as blackmail IMO. AFAIK, awakening doesn't necessarily have to be consensual. There's always that tiny chance that someone will figure out you're a latent (or suspect you), then try to point the Order towards you... or even awaken you against your will (which would be interesting RP).

I agree, but without any 'outward' effects occurring codedly, a latent character basically needs to give OOC consent to be discovered by choosing to roleplay the effects to whatever degree of subtlety they want. I have kind of the opposite preference here, where I think it'd be cooler (and more fully featured) if latent characters rarely, randomly had odd things happen to or around them.

If there's no interest in that aspect of the game though I'd at least like to see that a few of the lore helpfiles describing the process be a "see also:" for 'help latent'. help threshold of flesh, help barrier of blood, and help gate of moons are both cool as hell and I think essential reading for new mages and latents.


EDIT: If this is the case, I also think we should invert how buying into/out of Mage status works, something like this:

No potential: 0 XP
Surprise me! (random, but if mage pop is low fully awakened or latent mages become more common): 0 XP
Latent: 5000 XP
Awakened: Something >5000 XP

The intent of the old system seems to be that being a mage was bad and dangerous, but I think it clashes with the opinion of most players OOC: Being a mage is cool and special, and adds new lore and features to the game, in addition to making you more codedly powerful.

There are players who don't wish for the added risk of being a mage, and they can already opt out of that by not playing around the latent tag when given it, since there are no well-known ways to find latency.

[Alpharius]

I agree, but without any 'outward' effects occurring codedly, a latent character basically needs to give OOC consent to be discovered by choosing to roleplay the effects to whatever degree of subtlety they want. I have kind of the opposite preference here, where I think it'd be cooler (and more fully featured) if latent characters rarely, randomly had odd things happen to or around them.

If there's no interest in that aspect of the game though I'd at least like to see that a few of the lore helpfiles describing the process be a "see also:" for 'help latent'. help threshold of flesh, help barrier of blood, and help gate of moons are both cool as hell and I think essential reading for new mages and latents.


EDIT: If this is the case, I also think we should invert how buying into/out of Mage status works, something like this:

No potential: 0 XP
Surprise me! (random, but if mage pop is low fully awakened or latent mages become more common): 0 XP
Latent: 5000 XP
Awakened: Something >5000 XP

The intent of the old system seems to be that being a mage was bad and dangerous, but I think it clashes with the opinion of most players OOC: Being a mage is cool and special, and adds new lore and features to the game, in addition to making you more codedly powerful.

There are players who don't wish for the added risk of being a mage, and they can already opt out of that by not playing around the latent tag when given it, since there are no well-known ways to find latency.

I do agree with the costs you suggested.

As for latency having 'coded' effects - if there are going to be.. obvious, random signs that might eventually have people suspect you as a latent (including mages and yourself) then the RPXP cost should stay the same, because then it will be actual risk with the Order finding out.

Also, I do think playing a mage is still bad and dangerous. It's just latency necessarily isn't (why? because as you said, people can just RP being perfectly normal and the Order would never find out. though again, technically same for being a mage - you can just.. never use your powers, never do anything and reduce your risk to almost zero since nobody has a mage radar)

[Puciek]

There are no further instructions than that for latents, no, you understanding here is incorrect. On mage side there is no latent-radar either, so if latents don't play the part, they won't be found (random awakenings are against policy afaik).

Actually, there are because latent players have said before you get pvents/commands telling you that you are a latent. So, when you're a latent... yes, the game does tell you specific things. The game doesn't just leave you to figure it out on your own what you are.

I think you are confusing what was said a bit, there were suggested pvents around latency at some point, but clearly they are not in the game (or did for brief period of time and didn't hold), and the only command you get is an OOC one that you are latent. That's it, and that's not instructions at all, just discovery for the OOC player that his IC character is latent. There is nothing more. I recommend for you to roll a latent second and see.

And I didn't make the thing up about latent life being short, it's a direct quote from the helpfile (which is about the only helpfile about latency that the non mage players can find). So if we now think that latentcy is perfectly fine and ignorable, well, we should at least update the helpfile accordingly

Which is exactly what I suggested. There have been latents who've lived long, long lives as perfectly normal people because they are perfectly normal people until they are awakened.

As for latents playing the part, there is a difference between RPing very OBVIOUS mageish things and RPing being different than the rest. It's up to mage players to figure out who could be latent. It's not supposed to be easy from my understanding, nor are mages supposed to be able to have a 'latent radar' like you say. Just like how Orderties/Inquisitors investigate and find out who's a mage or not through RP and IC, I think mage players can take the time and RP/investigate people who are showing signs of being different from others and try to make contact with them. It should be risky. It should be hard. I do not think coded ways for mages to figure out who's latent or not should be necessary.

Just because latents don't make it obvious doesn't mean they're not playing the part - actually, I believe it is supposed to be discreet and understandable by only mages who can see the signs instead of the general populace. What makes you think latents aren't playing their part?

Again, I think you are mixing things up. I didn't say that htey are not playing their parts, but that if they do not then mages cannot awaken them. But at the same time if there is no guidance on how to play a latent, then the confusion of new players who try to play it, but don't know how, is extremely understandable and needs fixing. I know how to play a latent character, but only because I had pervious characters, and on my first I had quite a lot of conversations with staff trying ot figure it out. Otherwise I would have zero idea what to do with this latent thing. And this is something that echos every few weeks/months through visnet, so I am not the only one (and has been going on for years).

And for mages to be able to investigate anything, players must know how to play the part as for awakening you need serious cnoting that leads you to that conclusion that the person is latent. So we need people to play the latency, otherwise they cannot do their thing.

Now I don't think I like the idea of just making the latency somehting you can ignore, that's not how it was ever set to be, and you can see some helpfiles + history of roleplay to the contrary. It is of course the easy way out, you don't want to be a mage, you just ignore the latency. But that's kinda like ignoring your characters bad stat, it is not exactly in great form, especially since the system of latent lottery seems to have been put to do the exact opposite. Before that you had a binary chocie at creation - latent or not (with occasionally latent being replaced with starting directly as awakened), so it seems that the intention is to put people out of the comfort zone. I am also pretty sure that in chargen you can spend QP (or was it XP) to guarantee to not be a mage, so given that it seems even weirder that not paying the fee, and ignoring consequences of that choice would be okay.