Inactive in RP

[Dreams]

And to be frank, if we want to talk about social pressure, we can also talk about the OOC pressure those of us trying to timebox our play receive from others, as well as the strange IC reactions we sometimes receive. It has not been a welcoming environment.

I, uhm. I... am sorry you have received such a reception from people and are feeling this way.

However, I read back through all of my posts, and I fail to understand where I let out this type of vibe, which I apologize for if I did. (Understand it may be aimed elsewhere, but as it came right after my post, I'm going with that for now.)

I admit that I got... peeved when someone wanted to 'label' people as [slow] using code, and I didn't respond to that person very nicely. Because I don't see how that would help anything, and I felt it would discourage those people from bothering to play at all, and because they put assumptions with my suggestions that I did not state.

What I DID SAY was... find the people you enjoy RPing with, and RP with them. People whose styles match yours. People you enjoy being around. If people who take a long time aren't conducive to what you have time for, people can be asked OOCly to be more polite to the people they are playing with, or scenes can be left to invite people you know you can interact with in that amount of time and enjoy. (Totally mentioned that.) Sparkles suggested people can communicate better and forewarn people. "Hey, I only have about an hour," to hopefully help them understand the time constraints. Personally, I usually do that - I'll even warn when time is getting short. And, I'll warn if I'm going to be slow because of meetings, or work, or distraction. And I tell them that a later time is fine if they don't have time for that. Communication is key, I think. (As is filling out whois information, where RP preferences can be stated.)

I have, not once, defended people who are idling out on a constant basis - in fact, I tried to draw the conversation BACK TO that a while back. I just said that someone taking 5-10 per pose is not the same as someone idling out every pose (i.e. taking 20-30). And, legitimately, it's not.

You're one of my favorite people Galax - I'm not trying to argue with you. I don't think anyone else is, either. I think we're all just trying to understand one another.

However, one thing I have always loved about this game is how inclusive it has been. That... everyone CAN find something they enjoy. If we start making anyone (short posers, long posers, crafters, etc) feel as if they aren't making valuable contributions to the game because they don't RP like these other people RP, it's not okay. And, reading through this thread, that's what's bothered me and made me... peeved. This thread has been insulting to people who have a lot of time for the game, to people who have long poses, to people who have short poses, people who don't have as much time, and quite a lot of others. Which is probably what's bringing out the hurt feelings and knee-jerk comments.

I think there are a lot of raw feelings, and they are valuable, but deep breaths need to be taken so we can respond to one another in ways that allow us to
1) have differing opinions, and
2) allow everyone to know that having a different opinion is alright so
3) all of the opinions together can come to a solution.

Not a solution that punishes anyone, or makes anyone feel bad, or makes anyone feel like they don't make a valuable contribution - but a solution that doesn't force people to RP a certain way, because just like we might lose players if we force everyone to do 'short and quick' in public, we might lose players if we force 'long play'. Our RP culture doesn't say, "Use this length of poses." It gives options. People can use says, people can use emotes, people can use short or long. No solution we give should eliminate the existing options. Our solution might not make everyone happy (impossible to satisfy everyone), but we shouldn't make other people feel as if they are insignificant or wrong because they prefer a certain style of RP while others prefer other styles of RP.

[galaxgal]

And to be frank, if we want to talk about social pressure, we can also talk about the OOC pressure those of us trying to timebox our play receive from others, as well as the strange IC reactions we sometimes receive. It has not been a welcoming environment.

I will admit that I'm honestly not 100% sure what this means.

I am avoiding specific examples because I do not want to call out specific players or make specific players feel 'called out' by making even vague references. I will say that I've experienced generally receiving negative comments of various kinds when I don't stay 'in scene' long enough, either ICly or through osay, and even been accused of OOC malice toward specific players in the past simply because I was prioritizing IC responsibilities over certain veins of social RP.

It's generally made me kind of uncomfortable because there's a vibe that I'm 'being rude' by playing at the pace real life and sometimes even my character's IC obligations dictate of me. And I'm okay with my character(s) being seen as [insert rude words here] ICly, because part of the fun is in the conflict, but when I started catching vibes of OOC flak for it on top of that I now have to wonder every time it comes up.

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@Kitty - You're generally awesome and I don't get this vibe from you in specific, actually. What I meant , and quite honestly failed to call attention to was that elsewhere in game we can often encounter people who seem or act entitled to our RP time, and having to juggle that with 'try to hang out with people you vibe with in style' can lead to Sophie's Choice very fast.

I don't like the idea that if we're tight on time we have to constantly be expected to warn or explain ourselves. If someone is peeved that I come or go quickly, they shouldn't need to feel entitled to an explanation of why. Likewise, if I need something that I know will take a long scene to deal with, I'm happy warning of that and ask for a letter or a pboard time window because now I'm imposing on them.

There are also characters (I've had the luxury of not playing one, generally) who don't have time to stop and do long scenes often: militant orderites, Reeves, mages doing... mage things that aren't ERP (jk. probably. i think), these characters need forward momentum to do their roles effectively and often have workloads or schemes too complex for waiting around. And sometimes characters are involuntarily put into scenarios with clear time limits (like combat).

I guess what I'm saying is that yes, I'm also against insulting measures like the [slow] tag. But I think sometimes we should be flexible and adaptable to situations as the game asks of us. Sometimes that means you can chill in the Queen's for 4 hours and enjoy languid, detailed RP, and sometimes that means you're thrust into combat or being arrested/interrogated and no amount of a style preference will change the pace those situations ask.

[Dreams]

I think... that this one is a lot easier to follow/understand, and appreciate that you took the time to elaborate a little bit.

@Kitty - You're generally awesome and I don't get this vibe from you in specific, actually. What I meant , and quite honestly failed to call attention to was that elsewhere in game we can often encounter people who seem or act entitled to our RP time, and having to juggle that with 'try to hang out with people you vibe with in style' can lead to Sophie's Choice very fast.

I am glad that this vibe isn't coming from me. And, that doesn't sound appropriate at all.

I don't like the idea that if we're tight on time we have to constantly be expected to warn or explain ourselves. If someone is peeved that I come or go quickly, they shouldn't need to feel entitled to an explanation of why. Likewise, if I need something that I know will take a long scene to deal with, I'm happy warning of that and ask for a letter or a pboard time window because now I'm imposing on them.

I don't see it as an obligation - it was just a suggestion to give a gentle nudge to speed people up, should it be needed. If they are aware someone is short on time, they might speed up for you.

I guess what I'm saying is that yes, I'm also against insulting measures like the [slow] tag. But I think sometimes we should be flexible and adaptable to situations as the game asks of us. Sometimes that means you can chill in the Queen's for 4 hours and enjoy languid, detailed RP, and sometimes that means you're thrust into combat or being arrested/interrogated and no amount of a style preference will change the pace those situations ask.

And this is fair. People should be adaptable and flexible. But, I'm not sure how to fix that other than asking people to be adaptable and flexible.

[Kinaed]

So, I don't think anyone meant to call anyone else out when describing what they like and don't like when it comes to RP preferences. Unfortunately, I think we need to accept that people have different tastes and work our way past any of our own emotions and feelings of offense if we're going to get this one off the ground.

I'm thinking TI is having a bit of an identity crisis here. Because we never made any value judgments about whether we'd be a fast paced or short paced game, we were open to all audiences rather than catering to a niche. Thus, we've created the potential for strife in the pbase about things that aren't value judgments, but are a matter of taste. We have the following options:

1) Leave it as is, retain the sense of strife, and accept that we will be a mediocre game for anyone who doesn't fit the 'mean' style play, wherever that is sitting at the moment, which will fluctuate depending on what we have, but seems to be skewed to older players with a lot of time on their hands. This does mean we don't retain new players, which long term will kill the game, even for those players - but we'll be a home for a longer while, and let's face it - Staff tend to be the older player themselves.
2) Choose who we will cater to and go for it, which will impact some players for no good reason other than (whether we go long or short) their tastes are on the opposite side of what we cater to. If we go this route, then we need to think through what kind of game experience we want to be and do what we can to crystalize it and be the best game of that type available.

I agree this is a "Sophie's Choice" (presuming my Googling of the term sufficiently lets me understand the meaning of that having never read the book in question). Basically, no choice is 'right' or 'wrong', and each choice has compelling upsides and downsides? (UPDATE: Apparently Sophie's Choice is about a woman in Nazi Germany being forced to pick which child to kill. Okaaaaaaay. Let's drop that analogy. Moving on.)

So, I have a view that I want to pursue, and I will be discussing it with staff in upcoming meetings. We'll get back to you.

Meanwhile, I appreciate everyone's time and honesty regarding their feelings and views. Whilst I don't think we got a very broad spectrum of players, I do think everyone who expressed their views went deep on the topic and where they're coming from. This was insightful, particularly coming from people whose perspective doesn't naturally match my own, and I appreciate the understanding provided.

[Satoshi]

Honestly I think the issue here is that there are some people who fall out of RP or take 20 minutes to reply and totally bog up a scene, and that we shouldn't punish people for going fast OR slow. People already naturally reward players who keep up with scenes--I've gotten recommends form players for matching their lengthy style in private but also speeding up to not bog down a scene, which is reward enough to me. I've also had people reach out to RP again with me--which is the natural reward of meshing with someone. They liked playing with you enough to do it again.

I feel like there are some specific people who do this, and these repeat offenders should just be brought to staff's attention so that staff can reach out to them if it's actually a pattern. Otherwise we're just dancing around people's preferences, which will never be the same.

There's no right way to RP, but there's probably some wrong ones. Why don't we focus on bringing the ones who are negatively affecting RP up privately instead of on a public forum, so that staff can make a decision on whether the people who are repeatedly doing this are actually causing issues or not instead of debating what the 'right' way to RP is.

[galaxgal]

I would probably go so far as to say there is a spectrum of two not-always compatible playstyles on TI: One where the game is primarily a collaborative creative writing medium with arbitrators (code, staff) only where necessary, and one where TI is a game primarily driven by code verbs that allow for greater-than-usual descriptiveness and expression that uses Staff rulings and/or descriptive metadata to fill in the gaps where programming can't. To an extent that dichotomy in perspective is being reflected here, I think.

I think this is best represented by the debates that come up from time to time in the past about movement and fleeing: for some people, the mere act of 'leaving the room' is the RP choice to run away, for others, it creates an impression of non-interaction or avoidance.

[plague]

Way too upset to voice my thoughts and concerns coherently, civilly, or politely. Taking a little break.

EDIT: I have taken a nap. I have done other things. I have rested. I have chilled. I am still upset, but I have attempted to put how

Today, it was very difficult for me to interface with the game at all, because the discourse surrounding the recent change to RPxp was very distracting to me. Truth be told, the RPxp is absolutely nothing to me. I don't play this game to watch numbers go up; I play it to write, and I very dearly value the stories that I put together with other characters. I am insecure about whether other people enjoy roleplaying with me, especially with the recent discussions occurring... relatively often, about people who take too long to post. I am not insecure about the quality of my writing; I am quite certain that I am a good writer, and that my characters are deep and compelling and engaging. I am incredibly insecure about the idea that some people will be inconvenienced or hindered by my presence in a scene, though.

I know that I've been that example at least a few times. Sometimes it's been "my fault." Sometimes it hasn't been. Regardless, I have generally felt that being insecure about the time and post length only makes me agonize, distracts me, and exacerbates the issue. That was the case before the relatively sudden announcement following staff discussion (alongside several other topics) and some continued back-and-forth on the subject.

I think that nobody intended to have this effect on me, but... Combined with the wording of the recent change, this discussion made me avoid roleplaying with someone for, I think, the first time ever. I saw someone that I knew often has little time to roleplay, and I opted not to enter their scene because, if I take the wording earlier in this discussion literally...

2) Choose who we will cater to and go for it, which will impact some players for no good reason other than (whether we go long or short) their tastes are on the opposite side of what we cater to. If we go this route, then we need to think through what kind of game experience we want to be and do what we can to crystalize it and be the best game of that type available.

alongside the following statement...

UPDATE:

We forgot this from the forums:

1. Based on the forum discussion about fast versus slow, versus long
versus short emotes, staff have decided to only reward RPxp for
emotes (regardless of length or other factors) that occur within
five minutes of a previous emote in the room. A message will show
to a player if they fail to earn RPxp for an emote due to slow
response.

Taken literally, I conclude that if I don't post within five minutes, I am not the "kind of game experience we want to be". This is the change that is intended to crystallize the game into its ideal state - and as much as I would like to be someone who isn't a hindrance on the RP of those around him, by this particular metric, I'm not. When I'm having fun, when I'm engaged, that often means that I do take longer than five minutes to post. I'm sorry, but it's something relatively integral to the way that I RP; the way that I play any writing game. The past three months, I've spent an average of five hours a day in active roleplay. That... I hope, means that I've given a lot of enjoyment to players around me.

I avoided entering a scene because I felt that, inevitably, I would make it worse for the people involved. The RPxp doesn't matter to me. Not only is it not that significant whether I get RPxp for an emote in the first place, it is something that is incredibly easy to "get around". What bothers me, and what has bothered me, is the feeling that my writing, and my presence, is unwanted, if I can't write a post in under five minutes on a consistent basis.

I don't think this is what is intended by this announcement, but it is very much how it has made me feel. I don't have anything against any of the players I chose not to roleplay with. In fact, I love roleplaying with them, and I've only ever had positive experiences with them, but the wording of this change comes across as a distinct choice to pull support for my style of play because I am not the type of player which TI:L wants to see.

I would have preferred... a flag that people can throw up in a room, similar to turns. Maybe anonymous. A higher bonus for those who do roleplay within five minutes of the last emote, rather than a negative targeted at those who do not. Again, I need to stress this: the RPxp has almost no effect on my play experience. It's about how it feels - and a statement by the game that, because I took one second above five minutes to post, my roleplay is not worth rewarding (which as best I can tell has not been implemented) is sure to exacerbate negative emotions on this issue, constantly remind me that I am hurting the Good Times of Others by being around them, and politely pat me on my butt out the door if I can't "shape up to par" - all while taking up more of my time because it's stopping me from just... enjoying myself with those in scene.

For those who have, measurably, had their RP experience negatively affected by my RP for factors perhaps more controllable on my side than theirs, I'm sorry. I don't know what the solution to this problem is, as far as everyone enjoying themselves. At the moment, though... it feels like the intent from this staff announcement is to tell me the solution is, "If you use up too much of others' time, TI:L is not the game for you." But I like TI:L. I like it enough that I've spent the majority of my waking hours on it for months (thanks, summer break). I've written some wonderful stories with each and every person I've come across, so I like to think.

But for better or worse, this is the worst I've ever felt about this game. It leaves me asking myself if your experience is better off without me. Today, for the first time, I decided it was. I ask that this issue be considered a little closer, because not only do I not think this actually solves anything, I think that if anything, it will further splinter the playerbase on an already-divisive issue.

[wix]

I think people's playstyle is going to speak for itself, and the points already reward where it counts... if a player wants to farm you for xp without providing anything interesting to interact with, then they get one shot and the other PC at that point can just toss a remember flag to forwarn themselves next time. over time people figure out who they enjoy roleplaying with, and where their expectations are being met. I dont think the answer to this is more code-imposed encouragement, but instead for players to just go out and make up their own minds... also Id much rather not see a pre-labeled opinion from an algorithm declaring a PC to be some form of RP retarted flag... that can serve to sideline players who may still be working on their style and could possibly even improve given a little time to marinade.

Its worth periodically trying again too, to roleplay with a player who maybe disappointed in the past... although maybe less frequently to save from further disappointments, if you blackball a player permanently for their lacking RP style, I think that ends up with a different sort of problem. Players wil be seeking their own enjoyment, and if their own enjoyment involves the participation of other players (thanks to rpxp), then there is a built in motivation for us all to work on our own style issues and try to stay interesting to eachother. seems to me this doesn't require any additional code to already be true.

[Whateverosaur]

Hello, my name is Whateverosaur, and I am a slow, lengthy poser by default. While I don't think I typically run into the fifteen minute or longer territory, I can speed up to meet this deadline, but I find that in focused scenes with my attention honed in, my average probably lands between 5-10. With some of our truly detailed writers, I might not even notice 10-15. I have a timer that runs every five minutes, so I've got a pretty decent benchmark built into my scening.

Certain scenes call for certain styles, and I'd be a liar if I said I didn't wish certain scenes would keep up a five-minute clip, especially when I'm short on time. I don't find partners are usually very opposed to this when I ask in osays, and I think it speaks a lot to the thoughtful community we've been able to cultivate.

Especially when it comes to policing writing standards for the whole community, I am uncomfortable with one-size-fits-all approaches. I'm so grateful for anyone that wants to step up to the game and write character-driven, interactive stories that the occasional slow down doesn't prove too much trouble. Rather than a policy that devalues some players' contributions (whether they be default-longform posers, ESL writers, or otherwise 'slow'), I am all for encouraging the sorts of general behavior we would like to see (speedier, attentive responses) through positive reinforcement. I figure, it's good enough to teach my dog, it's good enough to teach me

[phoenixdoll]

I'll be honest, this issue inspired me to make a forum account.

I'm one of the slow rpers. I have RSI and I am also slow at typing. I also admit I actually get really into my own poses and sometimes I can just... hyper-focus and forget that I should just hit enter at some point and so I end up finishing my pose and then hitting the text buffer like three times.......... SORRY. I like to think that my general likeable demeanour OOC and fun poses make up for being slow, and I've never felt like I have any shortage of people who want to roleplay with me.

But this change has made me feel INTENSELY PARANOID and actually a bit sad.

Since this change I haven't got my RPXP bonus up above excellent, which took considerable effort on part and, well, it felt BAD. It felt that I was throwing out shitty small poses and not taking effort. Found it to be not a fun experience and so I've just ignored the RPXP prompt entirely. Which seems entirely counter to the point of the 'game' aspect to even gain XP, but hey.

And yeah, I'll admit it.I feel intensely depressed to admit that I'm one of those people who probably bogs down scenes. I've been really sick IRL. My focus is shot. I've had two people in the last two weeks in say ask if I'm still there when I'm just writing. (They didn't page me, which would have got a response instantly - I was scrolled up). But yeah, I'd rather not feel like everyone else is being punished because I suck apparently. Like. I'll make a bigger effort to just excuse myself from scenes if I'm not keeping up now, since my slowness which I'd never regarded as a positive but I'd never regarded as a massive deal before, I can see is an issue for others enjoyment.

And yeah. I play this to actually enjoy a game with you guys. You're cool.

love you all!

pd