Jail Channel
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nemovonfish
- Posts: 22
- Joined: Wed Apr 15, 2020 1:47 am
- Discord Handle: NvF
That's my point - the chatter IS a plea for RP, just phrased in a less obnoxious and "passive aggressive" way. I'm genuinely asking - if you're not available for RP, why are you in the Jail channel?
Personally? I would much rather the former.nemovonfish wrote: ↑Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:31 amDo we want the jailbird to spam "Hello would anyone like to RP?" Or would we like them to remind people with access that they're available with some lighthearted conversation and something that'll bring a smile to 75% of faces? Because that's what the chatting is doing - it's a request for RP that's meant to be less guilt-trippy than Kitty is protesting against.
I am not a fan of passive-aggressiveness OOC behavior - it's not ok. It's uncomfortable and intended to be, as mentioned, passive aggressive. And, people may not be as 'witty' and 'funny' as they think they are.
These are examples of some of the OOC nudges we've gotten on the channel in the last few weeks. (I was trying to find another way to do this, but I don't know how I can without actually SHOWING it.)
"Is anyone ever going to come visit me?"
"I'm lonely in here."
"From what I read in 'help jail', you aren't allowed to RP neglect."
"I love getting QP quests for people I can't RP with."
"Person1, come play with me!" "I'm sorry, I can't, I'm in a scene with Person2." 2 minutes later "Person2, come play with me!" "I'm sorry, I'm in a scene with Person1, we can schedule something later."
These are not witty banter. These are attempts at guilting people for not being there, or for being in other scenes. It is very, very passive-aggressive, and it isn't funny.
Sure, I would much rather, "Hello would anyone like to RP?" It is a much more respectful way to, you know, request RP.
I also feel like this is turning into a, "OMG, it's not fair that these people don't like my banter? Why won't they let me ask for RP?" I am totally ok for asking for RP. I'm not ok with people guilt-tripping the people on the channel if they have other obligations or can't make it in there - and the solution shouldn't be, "Turn it off, then." It should be, "Have respect for one another."
The OOC channel exists for OOC banter. That's it's actual purpose. That is where the OOC banter should be.
Maybe if staff would be willing to write a policy for the jail channel, this wouldn't be an issue anymore.
help policy triggers, help policy non-consensual, help sandwich
Agree with Kitty's note above.
To add meaningfully to the discussion, I will simply note that one of the better approaches to having jail handled in a mutually respectful manner is to arrange scenes ahead of time with captors instead of both players relying on just happening into mutual availability.
To add meaningfully to the discussion, I will simply note that one of the better approaches to having jail handled in a mutually respectful manner is to arrange scenes ahead of time with captors instead of both players relying on just happening into mutual availability.
That's really the key, if people will start disabling jail because of chatter, the person in jail is, ironically, easier to be forgotten about. And if jail spam bothers my RP, i will indeed either ask people there to cut it, or turn off that channel as is now apparently possible. That's not great for the jaile, and I don't think needed as there already is OOC for random OOC chatter.
Yes, jail sucks. And as someone who played both knightly and reeve PCs, it really should be treated as last resort due to how much it sucks (there is a lot of boxes to tick before it's right to toss someone into Ahalin). If we have now people tossed them lightly, this is something for sure to bring up with staff. If they are there, and for a longer while, but for just reasons (not complying with interrogation and so on), well, it's what it is. Talking like canary is the fastest way out of ahalin, although even that in some cases will require RPA for processing, so will take few days.
Blake Evernight tells you, "You, Sir, won my heart today. Are you single?"
It's quite the opposite. It is rather hard to get thrown into Ahalin.Puciek wrote: ↑Wed Jul 15, 2020 11:04 amThat's really the key, if people will start disabling jail because of chatter, the person in jail is, ironically, easier to be forgotten about. And if jail spam bothers my RP, i will indeed either ask people there to cut it, or turn off that channel as is now apparently possible. That's not great for the jaile, and I don't think needed as there already is OOC for random OOC chatter.
Yes, jail sucks. And as someone who played both knightly and reeve PCs, it really should be treated as last resort due to how much it sucks (there is a lot of boxes to tick before it's right to toss someone into Ahalin). If we have now people tossed them lightly, this is something for sure to bring up with staff. If they are there, and for a longer while, but for just reasons (not complying with interrogation and so on), well, it's what it is. Talking like canary is the fastest way out of ahalin, although even that in some cases will require RPA for processing, so will take few days.
So. I woke up, read this, and immediately felt like retiring my character. To my eyes, this thread seems to be thinly-veiled complaints about being arrested rather than a discussion about jail channel itself. I am admittedly salty and disappointed right now. Regardless, few comments:
1. Most individuals do not toggle jail channel off, as we want to be responsive to questions/requests from prisoners. More OOC chatter would likely decrease visibility for legitimate requests for help and RP coordination. (As Puciek says).
2. As Alpharius cited, it is incredibly difficult to get thrown in Ahalin. It normally requires multiple IC complaints/concerns for multiple people over the course of several OOC weeks, or players being overtly counter to the Order through public magery/heresy. If you argue that the Erra Pater is fake with an Orderite GL present, you're likely to get thrown in Ahalin. If you cast a spell in Town Hall, you're likely to get thrown in Ahalin. Otherwise it's the cumulation of many reports over a long period of time. As far as I'm concerned, it IS a last resort.
3. There is nothing wrong with using the jail channel to ask for RP. In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with cracking a joke or two. There -is- something wrong with joking about being bored/trapped/annoyed as a non-direct way of demanding additional RP and complaining about your character's IC predicament. When you are passive-aggressive over jail channel, individuals do not -want- to RP with you. If, within 12 hours of being arrested, you are posting about being 'bored' or feeling 'punished for activity', that will be taken as entitlement and not looked upon fondly to people who are volunteering to take on difficult roles (See Kitty's examples). If your OOC title reads 'X is still in Jail.' or 'X is just a sad little boy,' individuals who are working their darndest to get your case resolved are going to feel incredibly frustrated and, spoiler alert: not want to RP with you. If, when you ARE receiving RP, you are switching to OSAYs in order to complain, protest, insult, or demand better treatment, people will not want to continue RPing with you. If multiple warnings and/or staff involvement is required to keep you from OOC crossover, individuals will not want to RP with you. Nor should these individuals be required to RP with someone who is being demanding or downright abusive. (related, help policy harassment is quite old and should likely be updated).
4. A proper review takes time. It requires pages of cnotes and IC files. It requires searching your home and questioning your friends. It often requires RPA and assistance from staff. It often requires reports from multiple busy characters, and inter-guild communication. It requires a long interrogation scene that demands a lot of energy and focused attention to RP well. Then it requires more IC files and cnotes. Then there is a sentencing. At this point, it has often required staff intervention, because most players I have interacted with in the past four months have begun complaining or being abusive over OSAYs, becoming RP avoidant (linkless, refusing to emote), or wanting to speak to staff. When Bruin and I were reviewing Percivale, Eiphraem and Truth, we both logged 50+ hours that week to get their characters processed. Alone, a good review takes me ~20-25 hours of work from warrant to penance. If I wanted to RP an abusive GI that pyred everyone who showed up at my door and did not care for a semblance of due process, I could cut that down a LOT. But that would just mean more pdeath, and more complaints about pdeath in a game whose primary theme involves a LITERAL witchhunt by a terrifying black-hat theocracy with absolute authority and a serious grudge against folks who don't fit the status-quo.
5. No one has been held for longer than 4 OOC days by the Order to my knowledge. I cannot speak for the Reeves, but highly doubt they are locking people in Ahalin for longer than that. This can be confirmed by looking at jail channel. Those that were held longer than 3 days were because of repeat scheduling issues and policy conflicts that required staff involvement. Additionally, I believe certain individuals are grossly underestimating the scenes they participated in. Remember that by looking at the history of jail chan and the use of Ahalin passes, we are able to estimate the number of visitors they received. Regardless-- you are not entitled to people's time. You are not entitled to a particular outcome. Your life should not be ending because one character on an internet game is required to sit in a jail cell for 72 hours. There are alts, there are other activities, there are IRL things you can do... I interacted with one character who wrote an IC book while being held. In character, you can be as upset and miserable as you'd like. OOCly, there is an expectation that you behave like an adult. If your character's arrest is bleeding into your real life to the extent the some people have described, you should take a serious look at how your are balancing the demands of non-consensual RP and your mental health.
P.S. For all the bad eggs, some individuals have been lovely to RP with and have not exhibited these behaviors upon arrest. I do not mean to insult those characters. Eiphraem and Perci come to mind as examples of players who were incredibly kind and respectful OOCly, despite their characters being ICly upset. Karal's player was also someone who was upset about policy but did not allow that to become disrespectful. Thank you to all the people that have behaved similar. Also: thank you to the theme-enforcement characters that make this game possible.
1. Most individuals do not toggle jail channel off, as we want to be responsive to questions/requests from prisoners. More OOC chatter would likely decrease visibility for legitimate requests for help and RP coordination. (As Puciek says).
2. As Alpharius cited, it is incredibly difficult to get thrown in Ahalin. It normally requires multiple IC complaints/concerns for multiple people over the course of several OOC weeks, or players being overtly counter to the Order through public magery/heresy. If you argue that the Erra Pater is fake with an Orderite GL present, you're likely to get thrown in Ahalin. If you cast a spell in Town Hall, you're likely to get thrown in Ahalin. Otherwise it's the cumulation of many reports over a long period of time. As far as I'm concerned, it IS a last resort.
3. There is nothing wrong with using the jail channel to ask for RP. In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with cracking a joke or two. There -is- something wrong with joking about being bored/trapped/annoyed as a non-direct way of demanding additional RP and complaining about your character's IC predicament. When you are passive-aggressive over jail channel, individuals do not -want- to RP with you. If, within 12 hours of being arrested, you are posting about being 'bored' or feeling 'punished for activity', that will be taken as entitlement and not looked upon fondly to people who are volunteering to take on difficult roles (See Kitty's examples). If your OOC title reads 'X is still in Jail.' or 'X is just a sad little boy,' individuals who are working their darndest to get your case resolved are going to feel incredibly frustrated and, spoiler alert: not want to RP with you. If, when you ARE receiving RP, you are switching to OSAYs in order to complain, protest, insult, or demand better treatment, people will not want to continue RPing with you. If multiple warnings and/or staff involvement is required to keep you from OOC crossover, individuals will not want to RP with you. Nor should these individuals be required to RP with someone who is being demanding or downright abusive. (related, help policy harassment is quite old and should likely be updated).
4. A proper review takes time. It requires pages of cnotes and IC files. It requires searching your home and questioning your friends. It often requires RPA and assistance from staff. It often requires reports from multiple busy characters, and inter-guild communication. It requires a long interrogation scene that demands a lot of energy and focused attention to RP well. Then it requires more IC files and cnotes. Then there is a sentencing. At this point, it has often required staff intervention, because most players I have interacted with in the past four months have begun complaining or being abusive over OSAYs, becoming RP avoidant (linkless, refusing to emote), or wanting to speak to staff. When Bruin and I were reviewing Percivale, Eiphraem and Truth, we both logged 50+ hours that week to get their characters processed. Alone, a good review takes me ~20-25 hours of work from warrant to penance. If I wanted to RP an abusive GI that pyred everyone who showed up at my door and did not care for a semblance of due process, I could cut that down a LOT. But that would just mean more pdeath, and more complaints about pdeath in a game whose primary theme involves a LITERAL witchhunt by a terrifying black-hat theocracy with absolute authority and a serious grudge against folks who don't fit the status-quo.
5. No one has been held for longer than 4 OOC days by the Order to my knowledge. I cannot speak for the Reeves, but highly doubt they are locking people in Ahalin for longer than that. This can be confirmed by looking at jail channel. Those that were held longer than 3 days were because of repeat scheduling issues and policy conflicts that required staff involvement. Additionally, I believe certain individuals are grossly underestimating the scenes they participated in. Remember that by looking at the history of jail chan and the use of Ahalin passes, we are able to estimate the number of visitors they received. Regardless-- you are not entitled to people's time. You are not entitled to a particular outcome. Your life should not be ending because one character on an internet game is required to sit in a jail cell for 72 hours. There are alts, there are other activities, there are IRL things you can do... I interacted with one character who wrote an IC book while being held. In character, you can be as upset and miserable as you'd like. OOCly, there is an expectation that you behave like an adult. If your character's arrest is bleeding into your real life to the extent the some people have described, you should take a serious look at how your are balancing the demands of non-consensual RP and your mental health.
P.S. For all the bad eggs, some individuals have been lovely to RP with and have not exhibited these behaviors upon arrest. I do not mean to insult those characters. Eiphraem and Perci come to mind as examples of players who were incredibly kind and respectful OOCly, despite their characters being ICly upset. Karal's player was also someone who was upset about policy but did not allow that to become disrespectful. Thank you to all the people that have behaved similar. Also: thank you to the theme-enforcement characters that make this game possible.
That is my assumpiton yes, but as I am not actively involved in the law enforcment side right now, it's only fair to mention that if someone thinks otherwise they should speak with staff.Alpharius wrote: ↑Wed Jul 15, 2020 11:12 amIt's quite the opposite. It is rather hard to get thrown into Ahalin.Puciek wrote: ↑Wed Jul 15, 2020 11:04 amThat's really the key, if people will start disabling jail because of chatter, the person in jail is, ironically, easier to be forgotten about. And if jail spam bothers my RP, i will indeed either ask people there to cut it, or turn off that channel as is now apparently possible. That's not great for the jaile, and I don't think needed as there already is OOC for random OOC chatter.
Yes, jail sucks. And as someone who played both knightly and reeve PCs, it really should be treated as last resort due to how much it sucks (there is a lot of boxes to tick before it's right to toss someone into Ahalin). If we have now people tossed them lightly, this is something for sure to bring up with staff. If they are there, and for a longer while, but for just reasons (not complying with interrogation and so on), well, it's what it is. Talking like canary is the fastest way out of ahalin, although even that in some cases will require RPA for processing, so will take few days.
Blake Evernight tells you, "You, Sir, won my heart today. Are you single?"
My opinion is basically "banter feels nice, but the jail channel also spams 4 guilds so it is important to be considerate of other people" which can really fall either way.
Re: above discussion between nemo and others; there's a clear disconnect in terms of what you guys are talking about.
The "banter" nemo is referring to is bawdy friendly joking with other folk ('Hey GI, wanna plumb *my* GI in a bit?'), not err... "haha isn't it funny that nobody is roleplaying with me? lmao what if I die of boredom in here".
Definitely agree that the guilt-tripping stuff is really frustrating when it does happen, though. it really puts me off - it's just decidedly not the same thing nor what is intended by the original post, I feel. I would also like to say...
It paints an unhappy picture... by cropping out most of what actually happened.
Re: above discussion between nemo and others; there's a clear disconnect in terms of what you guys are talking about.
The "banter" nemo is referring to is bawdy friendly joking with other folk ('Hey GI, wanna plumb *my* GI in a bit?'), not err... "haha isn't it funny that nobody is roleplaying with me? lmao what if I die of boredom in here".
Definitely agree that the guilt-tripping stuff is really frustrating when it does happen, though. it really puts me off - it's just decidedly not the same thing nor what is intended by the original post, I feel. I would also like to say...
"Aside from people related to my case" seems to exclude quite a lot of the RP one would expect in jail. It comes across as disingenuous, because from reading this post, it is implied that you received little RP at all - two scenes, one week? Wow! But in reality, the people most obligated, and the people who will be most likely to visit you, are in fact the ones related to your case, and those people will be the majority of RP any prisoner is most likely to receive.Aside from people related to my case, I had two roleplay scenes in a total of maybe one OOC week in jail.
It paints an unhappy picture... by cropping out most of what actually happened.
ok, so the channel is strictly for requesting roleplay and not for OOC banter which should go to the OOC channel... easy enough. but players are actually using it for exactly that, asking for roleplay, with periodic reminders, and being told they are nagging, or asking too frequently.
if the jail channel is reduced to a single simplified purpose, and is being used properly, and that purpose is not able to be supported by the one complaining about the nagging, then why does it not make sense to turn off the channel until you are actually available to RP?
what exactly are you keeping it turned on for if the only purpose of the channel is actually causing an annoyance to your current situation or disturbing a scene?
if you can't respond to the RP request (totally reasonable) then its just going to be disruptive to keep seeing the only appropriate messages on the channel: "anyone down for some RP? I'm still here, just bumping this, lord bless!"
conversely it really doesnt make sense to shut down appropriate comments, particularly when there are no other comments that would be considered appropriate for the channel.
edit: yeah, sorry... I didnt realize I had only read the first page of this thread before posting. sorry about the litter!
if the jail channel is reduced to a single simplified purpose, and is being used properly, and that purpose is not able to be supported by the one complaining about the nagging, then why does it not make sense to turn off the channel until you are actually available to RP?
what exactly are you keeping it turned on for if the only purpose of the channel is actually causing an annoyance to your current situation or disturbing a scene?
if you can't respond to the RP request (totally reasonable) then its just going to be disruptive to keep seeing the only appropriate messages on the channel: "anyone down for some RP? I'm still here, just bumping this, lord bless!"
conversely it really doesnt make sense to shut down appropriate comments, particularly when there are no other comments that would be considered appropriate for the channel.
edit: yeah, sorry... I didnt realize I had only read the first page of this thread before posting. sorry about the litter!
Last edited by wix on Wed Jul 15, 2020 12:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
That's because the comments aren't like you think they are. When they are passive-aggressive in a way or just random comments that aren't necessarily seeking RP but just 'banter' and memes (and this is repeated over the course of a day multiple times) people understandably ask for it to stop.wix wrote: ↑Wed Jul 15, 2020 11:35 amok, so the channel is strictly for requesting roleplay and not for OOC banter which should go to the OOC channel... easy enough. but players are actually using it for exactly that, asking for roleplay, with periodic reminders, and being told they are nagging, or asking too frequently.
if the jail channel is reduced to a single simplified purpose, and is being used properly, and that purpose is not able to be supported by the one complaining about the nagging, then why does it not make sense to turn off the channel until you are actually available to RP?
what exactly are you keeping it turned on for if the only purpose of the channel is actually causing an annoyance to your current situation or disturbing a scene?
if you can't respond to the RP request (totally reasonable) then its just going to be disruptive to keep seeing the only appropriate messages on the channel: "anyone down for some RP? I'm still here, just bumping this, lord bless!"
conversely it really doesnt make sense to shut down appropriate comments, particularly when there are no other comments that would be considered appropriate for the channel.
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