Mage v Knight Balance, Revisited

[LANS]

And that kinda goes against the core of mages - they are supposed to be mysterious and operate something that for normal people is impossible to comprehend. They don't need to actually be able to burn down a village in order to be dangerous, the myth around them should be more than enough for anyone to flee in terror when a mage passes through with a flame burning out of their skull, or doing anything else creepy. Heck, I can't imagine why wouldn't most knights run for the hills when faced with a mage, you never know if he won't just snap his finger and horde of demons will appear and eat your alive. They don't because "mages - complete guide to what they can and cannot do" is passed along freely, whether people do it knowingly or not, that's what's going on. So instead of building the portrayal of scary mages who with raise of a brow can level mountains we are building image of weaklings who need to fight with weapons and wear armor, otherwise they are relatively easy to beat. And when the mystery and myth is gone, well, mages really are not that powerful, and shouldn't be as that was causing a lot more of a problem when they were very dangerous in combat indeed, with mattack ignoring armor, and pretty powerful combat (direct and indirect) spells.

Good reasoning. This is why I strongly opposed, a year ago, the creation of a certain IC means to learn a lot about magic and even demonology. It ruins the mystery, both on an IC and OOC level.
A guild without a guildhall is an idea that has some merit, though.

[Kinaed]

DISCLAIMER: I have not read this entire thread.

Some notes:
- Wax balls - they don't work the way people seem to think they do and as they're currently rumoured to. Staff have reviewed what they actually do and think they're balanced. We recommend experimenting to find out more.
- Teaching - we've added mages purchasing spells for QP to our approved list (more to be announced), so this will probably ease some, but we're not sure we're finding the right balance for teaching spells when asking mages about their views. Still investigating.
- Mage guild - we're waiting on a proposal from Tasker, but we are also open to seeing other players' proposals for a mage guild. Note that we only have room for one mage guild though, so maybe have a chat with Tasker? Or let us know if people want to put up competitive proposals - please put any proposals on the Request Board. The basic criteria is: We want to get away from the history of the Manus, we want a guild that is at least a certain level of active, and we don't want to set up a 'safe haven' where mages don't do anything but hide behind doors 24-7 bored out of their own minds
- Other stuff - I probably missed. Big plate, small time allotment and a lot of prioritization. You know where to reach me if you want to discuss anything we failed to talk about here or in OOC Chat today.

[Geras]

Kinky - how would you feel about a "moon locked" exit. IE an exit that can only be accessed by non-magical means during certain phases of the moon. It would be safe... temporarily. Not feasible as a long term hiding place.

[galaxgal]

Hi Kinaed, regarding teaching:

The reason I call out learn speed is how many layers of learning have to be done to pick up one spell.
You usually end up having to do multiple teach threads: One for moon, one for element, one for spell.

Mage skills are the only skills with these properties:

-Potentially fatal lesson scenes
-Multiple lesson scenes needed to reach any meaningful milestones
-Few intuitive ways for teachers or students to advertise
-No good way to know if a viable teacher is on without some potentially dodgy metagaming

Some of these I think make thematic sense on their own (learning magic is not safe or easy), but when they compound with other issues the pbase gets very averse to the risk because the perceived reward is low.

[galaxgal]

I'm putting a note on wax as a separate aside.

Players who have used and experimented with it know more about it than is let on in public, out of a sense of sportsmanship and to protect game secrets.

I am one of those players.

We are essentially being told by everyone who's in favor of the current state of wax to furnish specifics we can't furnish to illustrate our grievances.

[nemovonfish]

It ruins the mystery, both on an IC and OOC level.

Consider your position - you're an old player, there's likely not much you don't know about magic in this game. There is no OOC mystery for you, and therefore it's very hard to roleplay any IC mystery. The only players therefore WITH ooc mystery about magic are younger or newer players - the very ones you rely on to be able to do your job as head mage murderer. "Keeping the mystery" only applies to these new players, limiting their choices, and making them much more likely to frak up, get outed, and consequently burnt by yourself. More mage ash for you, right?

Yes, I am unironically asking you to check your privilege.

Mechanical mage mystery exclusively harms new players, limits their RP, dissuades folk from being mages, and therefore damages the basic theme of the game.

[Geras]

I do think the OOC opaqueness is unfair to new mages but I don’t think it’s fair to pin that on Lans.

[Dreams]

It ruins the mystery, both on an IC and OOC level.

Consider your position - you're an old player, there's likely not much you don't know about magic in this game. There is no OOC mystery for you, and therefore it's very hard to roleplay any IC mystery. The only players therefore WITH ooc mystery about magic are younger or newer players - the very ones you rely on to be able to do your job as head mage murderer. "Keeping the mystery" only applies to these new players, limiting their choices, and making them much more likely to frak up, get outed, and consequently burnt by yourself. More mage ash for you, right?

Yes, I am unironically asking you to check your privilege.

Mechanical mage mystery exclusively harms new players, limits their RP, dissuades folk from being mages, and therefore damages the basic theme of the game.

You would be surprised. Some players purposely avoid one side of the game or the other. It is completely feasible that tpb Lans, despite being an older player, doesn't know what you think he knows. (And, with this, I'm saying... he doesn't know what you think he knows.)

[LANS]

Yes, I am unironically asking you to check your privilege.

I have never played a mage.

[nemovonfish]

I do think the OOC opaqueness is unfair to new mages but I don’t think it’s fair to pin that on Lans.

Apologies, I didn't meant to say BAD LANS, YOU'RE THE REASON MAGES AREN'T PLAYED, my opposition is entirely focused on the idea that mechanical knowledge should be kept out of the hands of new players. Being an outed mage has put me in a fun position - I've had numerous new players approach me OOC for advice on "Okay what? Element? Moon? Astral Avatar? Rituals?? What does any of this mean??!" Which I was thrilled to be able to assist with.