Two new void spells (mayb in place of some existing ones?)

[Puciek]

Desc notes are OOC representation of your IC knowledge and thoughts (but in OOC form) so if we are creating a mage who can read your thoughts then I see not reason why he shouldn't be able to read this particular thoughts you save for desc notes. Yes, they are personal, yes they reveal a lot but that is the whole point of being able to read thoughts.

As for usage of think, i didn't bring it up earlier this fact, but this topic was discussed on mages IG board beforehand. There I've proposed some sort of rule change to make think not-optional whenever a character engages in deception and general consensus was that this is how it was intended to work but there is simply no way to enforce it.

Funny thing is that you all admit to use think differently because of your knowledge of this spell (with a claim that it is a good thing) which is a case where OOC fuels your IC decisions. I simply find that hilarious as Bhaniz did think multiple times things that revealed his identity, he didn't change them only because I knew (on ooc level) that said person is a mage and may very intercept it (yes, i did "think" couple times in lines of "does he know that i am a mage? but how" or "did he figure out that I want to screw him over X? Really?").

In simple terms, my usage of think shown what it was intended to show - HOW YOUR CHARACTER THINKS. Not to be used as magebait.

[Cellan]

Funny thing is that you all admit to use think differently because of your knowledge of this spell (with a claim that it is a good thing) which is a case where OOC fuels your IC decisions.

You're putting words in my mouth here; I actually said no such thing. I said that I use thoughts often, but for character development. Personally, I don't care whether or not a random mage gets "useful" or "trivial" information from the things that my character thinks about. I don't use it for your benefit-- I use it to reflect what my character is thinking about at any given time.

[Puciek]

Funny thing is that you all admit to use think differently because of your knowledge of this spell (with a claim that it is a good thing) which is a case where OOC fuels your IC decisions.

You're putting words in my mouth here; I actually said no such thing. I said that I use thoughts often, but for character development. Personally, I don't care whether or not a random mage gets "useful" or "trivial" information from the things that my character thinks about. I don't use it for your benefit-- I use it to reflect what my character is thinking about at any given time.

And how many of those times that thought would hurt your character? Be honest. Or do you want me to believe that your character never engages in deception?
Because when you lie to someone (irl), then in your brain you do think about the fact that you are lying and if someone was able to read your thoughts it would be clear as day to them. That's how our brain works, we have to think about an action to perform it (clearly thinking about every triviality would be a waste of time and strength, but something as important as lying - oh yea).

[Madyriel]

Puciek, I am sorry that you feel cheated by the fact that more players don't put their characters in danger by thinking things that you and others could potentially use against them, but the system isn't designed to be policed, and I'm not sure that there IS a way to police it without making it a real burden on everyone else involved.

Moreover, it seems unfair to assume that people are necessarily avoiding risky thoughts on purpose. I know that for me personally, when a situation gets tense, I don't always know what my character might be thinking right then, and I often struggle to simply keep up with the story going on around me, making sure that I don't miss anyone else's emotes and that I respond to non-verbal cues as well as verbal ones in my own emotes. It can be a lot of work to keep up with a tense, fast-paced scene, nevermind worrying about thoughts on top of one's emotes!

On the other hand, perhaps a lack of thoughts could be interpreted as someone actually being guarded ICly, rather than necessarily pointing to OOC explanations and causes. People are able to cheat lie-detector tests. Why couldn't they be guarded with their secret-most thoughts, as well? Especially if they know there's a chance that those thoughts might be read? Perhaps the appropriate response is an IC response, rather than a recurring OOC complaint about a system meant to enrich the experiences of the playerbase as a whole - not just the handful of mages who could potentially take advantage of it for their own purposes.

In my opinion, the spell should be considered a perk or privilege that could potentially confer advantage for the purposes of awesome RP in the right situations - rather than thinking of it as some sort of "right." The rest of the playerbase does not owe Void mages their characters' most devious thoughts, and whether they do or do not type them out them is not necessarily the result of OOC intent to somehow "cheat" the system.

[Puciek]

Puciek, I am sorry that you feel cheated by the fact that more players don't put their characters in danger by thinking things that you and others could potentially use against them, but the system isn't designed to be policed, and I'm not sure that there IS a way to police it without making it a real burden on everyone else involved.

I don't feel cheated. I feel great with endangering my character like that because this holds to RP integrity which is always at highest possible priority for me. I am completly aware of policy issue, hence why I propose those 2 "mid-way" spells since desc notes are already policed.

Moreover, it seems unfair to assume that people are necessarily avoiding risky thoughts on purpose. I know that for me personally, when a situation gets tense, I don't always know what my character might be thinking right then, and I often struggle to simply keep up with the story going on around me, making sure that I don't miss anyone else's emotes and that I respond to non-verbal cues as well as verbal ones in my own emotes. It can be a lot of work to keep up with a tense, fast-paced scene, nevermind worrying about thoughts on top of one's emotes!

Granted, sometimes it's not the case but I could give you list of couple players (well I won't but it's an example). who clearly stop thinking right of the bat when it would endanger them (and they were thinking heavily beforehand).

On the other hand, perhaps a lack of thoughts could be interpreted as someone actually being guarded ICly, rather than necessarily pointing to OOC explanations and causes. People are able to cheat lie-detector tests. Why couldn't they be guarded with their secret-most thoughts, as well? Especially if they know there's a chance that those thoughts might be read? Perhaps the appropriate response is an IC response, rather than a recurring OOC complaint about a system meant to enrich the experiences of the playerbase as a whole - not just the handful of mages who could potentially take advantage of it for their own purposes.

Faking a lie detector comes from a completely different approach than supposedly guarding thoughts (which we can read RL too, to some extent, so I will stick to them as "how mages do that").
A lie detector simply gives you a readout of your vitals (in older version) and based on that, you can simply match how does a person system react when telling lie and truth. This tests can be faked by either learning to control your reactions (very few people in the world can do that, usually top notch government agents) or by using an outside stimulus with every question to control the output (for example pinching yourself hard).
When it comes to new lie detectors (and how we can read minds) is that we simply attach their brain to a scanner which prints out the waves and analogical patter recognition is used to determine lie from truth (there are also some major advances in reading much more from it, but I won't delve into that). And the second test is not possible to fake or cheat on because we have zero control over this process (thinking for most part is involuntary process).
So no, you can't really "shield yourself icly" from mind-reading, at least science says so ;).

[Leech]

Funny thing is that you all admit to use think differently because of your knowledge of this spell (with a claim that it is a good thing) which is a case where OOC fuels your IC decisions.

I think you may have misunderstood me. Granted, that happens a lot nowadays. I was not thinking a certain way with the intent of the void mage revealing themselves to me - rather, they revealed their powers to me because I thought certain thoughts, and they saw an advantage and took it. I actually had no idea of their mageyness from the get-go. It was an argument for the merits of mind reading, which you seem to be dismissing - and rightly so, I'm sure there are a few players who cover up their thoughts because they OOCly know they are playing with a void mage.

You're singling those players out, but what makes you think that their desc notes will be any different? And for those players who do actively fill out their desc notes with every little thing - you're gaining a MAJOR power over them, one that makes void mages imbalanced.

TL;DR - Mind reading is useful against people who actually think, but not all players take advantage of the think command. However, if you include reading desc notes, then you're giving the mage a huge advantage to use against those who actively write desc notes - whereas those players who didn't use think beforehand to counter-act mind reading will just change their desc notes.

These spells wouldn't level the playing field - they would give a huge and imbalanced advantage with void mages against those people who actively use their desc notes, on top of the advantage of mind reading those people (who probably are more likely to provide tasty thoughts).

[Madyriel]

So no, you can't really "shield yourself icly" from mind-reading, at least science says so ;).

I am well-aware of the science behind lie-detector tests, and so would anyone who has watched any TV in the past decade. But arguing for something on the basis of "science" in a game that includes "magically reading people's thoughts" doesn't hold a lot of force here. My intention was merely to point out that a lot of things are possible in TI that wouldn't be possible IRL. So I don't see why people couldn't develop the means to "avoid" or "defend against" having their thoughts read - and that such an explanation might be an acceptable IC means of RPing a situation (i.e. lack of incriminating thoughts) that you find difficult/aggravating.

[Dice]

I believe something may need to be clarified.

Auspex does not represent reading all thoughts.

Auspex represents an ability to hear some few particularly 'loud' thoughts that are right at the surface of somebody's mind. ICly it is very much meant to not give you a complete understanding of everything on somebody's mind but occasional glimpses into somebody's thoughts as random snippets happen to surface loudly enough to be caught up.

This is thematically true, not just a consequence of people using think too little. The helpfile hints at it - "stray thoughts". Not all thoughts, not by a long-shot.

Auspex is not meant to represent complete knowledge of somebody's mind or hearing all their thoughts - why? Because it would be overpowered.

[Puciek]

So no, you can't really "shield yourself icly" from mind-reading, at least science says so ;).

I am well-aware of the science behind lie-detector tests, and so would anyone who has watched any TV in the past decade. But arguing for something on the basis of "science" in a game that includes "magically reading people's thoughts" doesn't hold a lot of force here. My intention was merely to point out that a lot of things are possible in TI that wouldn't be possible IRL. So I don't see why people couldn't develop the means to "avoid" or "defend against" having their thoughts read - and that such an explanation might be an acceptable IC means of RPing a situation (i.e. lack of incriminating thoughts) that you find difficult/aggravating.

Well, brains function the same way. And if they are indeed shielding somehow (lets assume that it's just a black box) then why not put it outright in think helpfile that it can be overheard by mages? Level the playing field for newbies too. Really I will be happy with either adjusting it, so the fact of mind reading becomes public to everyone so they can "shield themselves" too or adjusting it so thinking will become mandatory when entering any type of deception.

TL;DR - Mind reading is useful against people who actually think, but not all players take advantage of the think command. However, if you include reading desc notes, then you're giving the mage a huge advantage to use against those who actively write desc notes - whereas those players who didn't use think beforehand to counter-act mind reading will just change their desc notes.

Big difference is that you are required to write desc notes if you are planning to do a harm to another player, while you are not obliged to do so with think. Yes, it is a huge advantage that's why it would require noting in desc note and a very valid reason for such heavy probing (like a well grounded suspicion that this person is plotting against you).

[Azarial]

Right off the bat, desc notes are not for other players' consumption. That is for the author, and the imms when required. Which is not that often. So 'no' to that spell.

Think is encouraged, not required. Why? unenforcable. Desc notes leave a nice record we can track and trace with date stamps. Which is why they were not designed in the beginning to be edittable or deletable. Adding a polca for that won;t change the prior point.

Reading remote thoughts....nice idea. Maybe as a sixth or seventh circle. Which is a 'no'.

And Auspex may end up rising a circle or two. The spell repair and rebalancing is not yet complete, after all. Whisperreap used to listen in on everything remotely and that was chopped *way* back, for the record; that twink spell has been nicely rebalanced to fit the game better. it sets a precedent for not writing the fancier mind reading spells. (And if you want protection, well, tinfoil has not been invented yet. But a plate helm or a chainmail coif might do the job.)