[Poll] Crafting

[Kinaed]

Dear Crafters,

Even Awesome systems often have places where tweaks can make things better. What would make our craft system better?

Where does the craft system trip itself up and defeat its own purpose?

Let us know, and we'll look at improvements.

Thank you!

[Dice]

1) POOLING. Pooling is a nightmare in the new crafts because you can only pool on a narrow range of things, often things that are either expensive or difficult to make, and you cannot reclaim the materials used for it with salvage. Add to that that you can't tell what will pool for you because it varies from craft to craft and even recipe to recipe within crafts, and pooling has become worthy of tearing your hair out.

2) Too many components that are only used once or twice in certain crafts (brewing especially, herbalism to a lesser extent) can make it very annoying and finicky to do things. Just assembling the ingredients for some things, and not wasting ingredients, is a major concern for me.

3) A lesser concern, but only having 3 OR items in the recipes is a bit annoying when there's a lot more than 3 options for a certain item.

4) Repair no longer works with new craft items, AFAIK.

[Kinaed]

Thanks, Dice. Anyone have anything else to add?

[Kinaed]

I've asked Temi to give us an update to the craft_ command to show whether or not a particular recipe will pool.

I'm not sure how I feel about item #2, so will let it percolate whilst others respond to this post.

We've had similar concerns about the limits of only having three OR items, but it would be a major rewrite to fix, is my understanding. This is desirable, but probably far off in priorty-land.

With regards to repair, thanks for raising that. We're hashing something out now for it.

[Zeita]

Just to start, I'll respond to Dice's point 3) I believe that this is currently a code restraint on the number of OR items. Not to say that it couldn't be edited (I say, not knowing the intricacies of it in the slightest).

My experience is mostly with chandlery and herbalism, so I'll only address those two skills. (I've used cooking a touch and it seems okay at low levels)

Chandlery:

As a preamble, I'll mention that Zeita came in as application character and thus started with grandmastered skill (for 40QP), so I can't speak to general recipe-for-skill grind.

1) I'd like to see the recipes stretched out to go from 74-75 as the other trades do, rather than capping at 60. As it is, additional skills are wasted and there is currently no way to reach grandmaster through pooling, but conversely no point in doing so, either.

2) There is a lot of interplay between herbalism and chandlery, in that a lot of the fancier perfume (and soap/lotion) base oils require reasonably high levels of herbalism. While this would theoretically create interplay, and it does to an extent, I did feel driven to take up herbalism as well to properly realise my character concept.

3) Number of components, I'm pretty happy with. It is reasonable, some of them are rather costly, but not overly so. I do have a large storage of raw materials needed for crafting, however, built up over the last 4-5 months.

4) Business is slow in general- there are a few regular customers, however, to keep it going and a couple of sporadic but large orderers.

5) In general, I'd like to see higher skills make better quality products, whether that be in more uses, longer durations or whatnot.

6) I've mentioned this before, and it was generally received well- and acknowledge that is not a coding priority, but more descriptive versatility for perfumes would be nice, similar to the eat strings on food.

7) Overall, however, I'm happy with crafting chandlery.

Herbalism:

1) Pooling is not an issue here, as it comes from harvesting and tending as well- if anything, this one pools too easily due to that. Could potentially look at plants having a 'pool range' that they will grant pool on, similar to when crafting items.

2) No issues with supply on most herbalism craft items, large stockpiles. The only exception to that is the poisons, the ingredients for most of which (certainly the upper scale/lethal ones) I've never seen- although I assume that they may be available in southside.

[Onyxsoulle]

A big frustration I had while grinding is the materials needed, and especially failures. When I would forge a recipe for the first few times, I would fail alot. This would destroy most of the materials needed. Sometimes I'd get a few lumps back, which for steel recipes is a hassle since you have to make the lump into iron bars and ingots, then into what you need it to be in steel, and you'd still wind up with maybe a quarter of what you used, if you are lucky. The other thing that would have made smithing impossible if I hadn't had the help of the guild is the sheer amount of materials needed. Every recipe needs charcoal, and the amount keeps going up. Charcoal doesn't seem like much, but if I run every recipe I have(not including Damascus) we're looking at a couple hundred pieces of coal, multiply that by 10, we're looking at roughly 2000 silver to run each recipe once. Damascus is a different beast altogether, ironically with the given format, I like Damascus as is. Damascus is supposed to be difficult, so I like it that way.

Oh and Zeita, you can actually pool after your last recipe, teach. Ereketh got his last few recipe ranks by doing that, you pool a bit less than crafting it, but you still pool.

[Cellan]

I love the crafting system! I'm all about it.

[Tremere]

I haven't used the crafting system as of yet, though it is on my list of things I would like to do. From the outside looking in though I am looking at it, as a new player going 'holy hell I will bankrupt myself trying to learn the basics' on just what little I've seen/heard and that is my concern. But take it with a grain of salt, I haven't gotten to try it out yet. I do usually like crafting in games, so I do want to give it a go sometime.

[Kinaed]

Hey Tremere - when you do have a chance to try it, let us know.

I think it'll be easiest to learn it if you have the support of other players, and in that vein, I'd recommend joining the Merchants.

[Inertia]

What would make our craft system better?

Individual satisfaction with any system varies widely based on personal preferences so in order to address this question, it is important (in my mind) to first establish what Legacy's craft system brings to the game. Crafting:

- allows a high level of individual expression through customization (IC, OOC)
- furnishes a sense of accomplishment through the achievement of tangible goals (IC, OOC)
- creates limited opportunities for the acquisition of wealth and other goods (IC)
- encourages exploration and promotion of theme files (OOC)
- supports role-play through the use of props and tools (OOC)
- provides entertainment in the absence of available role-play (OOC)


Most issues with crafting arise from points 2 and 3. Crafts are NOT created equal but in a general sense, wherever investment (of OOC time and IC money) outpaces profit (skill rank progress and IC money) it is going to feel like the system needs tweaking. I've listed below some specific issues and proposed solutions:

Crafty Problem #1: Supply outweighs demand.
Once someone has bought a non-consumable craft such as clothing or furniture, they never have to buy it again. Because we have a small playerbase, crafters may have trouble finding people to buy their goods and there's a very limited expectation for repeat business.
Proposed Solution: Let more items deteriorate over time and give craftskills the ability to repair them. Let reparing items increase your skill pool.


Crafty Problem #2: Skill-grinding creates a lot of wasted items.
If you're progressing your skill through grinding, you're likely to end up with a huge pile of the cheapest item that will pool said skill and it can be disheartening to see 100x <item> for a rank or two's worth of pool.
Proposed Solution: Enable/fix salvage so that crafters can get more bang for their buck. Option: let salvaging pool the appropriate skill, e.g. salvaging a tunic would pool tailoring.


Crafty Problem #3: Craft skills require secondary craft skills.
Where a craft requires components created through a /different/ craft, it can be frustrating for a number of reasons (nobody's available to make the components for example) and often the easiest fix is just to pick up the skill yourself.
Proposed Solution: Add appropriate recipes or make more components available in NPC shops so that crafts are more independent. Leaving some things /cheaper/ in other crafts is fine as it encourages RP/networking but doesn't require it.


TL;DR: In broad terms, the craft system can be tweaked for the better by allowing crafters ways to (1) reuse materials to get more skill pool out of their money (salvaging) and (2) make a little money between big commissions (repairing).