Why use magic?

[Voxumo]

Just because you are new, doesn't mean your view is any less meaningful... infact it's more meaningful because your view isn't influenced by anything, but your own experience with the game. The fact you didn't want to play a mage because 'It just sounds like there's too many issues working against one another' says alot. People who are fresh to the game help alot with things like this, because they aren't bias or have their mind made up. They weren't around for when magery was a bit more potent or when we had the Manus around... They are basing their views solely on what they are currently experiencing, instead of someone like me who will base his views on past experiences of the game and what not. It helps more than you realize.

And yeah Blacksoul, I agree that specialized paths would be nice for magery. Something I also think would be interesting is bonuses for mage combat. If you have a water mage fighting near water... they should have a bonus of some sort since they don't have to create the element out of nothing. Or air mages getting a bonus on a rainy day or rather windy day. Something like that.

[Lily]

I like the idea of different paths. What I don't like the idea of is increased mayhem and death/combat. Since I don't have access to the magecraft ability list, I can only take the word of others that there are lots of peaceful non-mayhem crafts/spells.

This is also why I think bringing back a mage guild is key. Why can't 50% of mages be peaceful scholarlike people? Apparently that's less popular because if you accidentally get seen doing peaceful magic, you're toast.

With specialisations and a guild, you could please people like me who want to be able to roleplay and use peaceful magic such as enchanting plants in an area to grow faster (I don't know what magic is out there), and you could please people who want to go out of the guild, into Lithmore and go all 'Project Mayhem fight the system' type thing.

[Dice]

I feel like there's a lot of misunderstanding in this thread (and maybe the whole game!) about the KIND of dangerous and scary mages are meant to be.

People don't fear mages because mages can immolate them with fireballs. People fear mages because mages because mages can hex their crops, curse their unborn children, spy on them from afar, etc. Granted, only some of these things are codewise possible. Yet a great deal IS in fact codewise possible, especially when mages work together in tandem/sync. The limiter here is creativity and tolerance for risk.

No, it's generally not going to be possible to go out there, fight toe-to-toe without subtlety, and win. That simply isn't what magic is about. (Though I will say this: as Vox says, you can easily have a mage who is also a grandmaster combatant. Buff said mage with a few different spells and you will curbstomp most any Knight or Reeve in a 1v1.)

I don't want to give too much away to non-mage players. But it is very possible to walk into a crowded scene and make people act in utterly insane ways with one of several spells that can be silently evoked. It's very possible to use spells to begin a concerted campaign against someone's sanity by tormenting their mind. It's very possible to raise zombies and leave them drooling and shambling in the city to terrify passers-by. It's very possible to create bombs and fling them into crowds from afar. It's even very possible to arrange destruction on a truly grand and world-changing scale, if staff is on board and you've got a few people working with you.

There is SO MUCH that mages can do! But it's going to require creativity, proactivity, and a tolerance for risk. This is admittedly much easier said than done, I know. The mages I've played before have never really gotten up to much because of my own fear of losing characters, so I don't mean to pretend I'm above everyone else. But I think there is not a problem here in code whatsoever. There is a problem in perception and expectations of what TI magery is.

That said, perception matters, and maybe there's something to be done in making magic more scary without necessarily making it more dangerous. Perhaps we need to continue to add more mindfuckery spells, and perhaps we need to make genuine staff-played demons tougher/not banishable by steel. I think staff has already stopped letting demon STs happen due to them watering down fear of demons. There's probably further improvement that could be made, but I think the last thing we need is more battle-power for mages.

PS: I love you Rothy, but man, I can't stand the idea of Knights/Inquisitors using magic to fight magic! I feel we struggle enough with 75% of the game being heretics already...

[Puciek]

The fear of magic is something that indeed irks me with people. When Otois first ran into a mage I rolled a dice against d&d chart for reaction to terror (with some refinement to make it more suitable to TI) to see how it will affect him. Because this is one terrifying experience for a normal person to see a whole room suddenly become engulfed in shadows, or to see something that glows at night etc. And he reacts, he gets panic attacks and there is a large chance that if he ever goes toe to toe with a mage he will just fall to the ground and roll in a fetal position because of the terrifying thing mages do.
And that seems to be missing as everyone is accustomed/used to magic that they barely shrug when they see it. It simply is too common to be mysterious and scary (and I am not sure how much that happens on IC or OOC level). Being afraid of magic doesn't require any more power given to mages but maybe church going harder on people who do not have strong reactions at the very idea of a mage, in the end they spent most of they life being indoctrinated to fear them by the church and it is very suspicious to just shrug off a mention of mage attack. Not saying that they should run to church and fall to the floor at mere mention of word "mage", but somewhere between the two.

[Dice]

A lot of people end up feeling that they've seen enough magic not to be afraid, or that their PC is too stoic for fear, or some combination of the two, I think. I'm sympathetic to this problem; I have literally dealt with about two dozen different shadows on my long-lived PC. That said... I think the missing element here is a lack of recognition that this thing is entirely -unnatural-. Even if you're a Knight, even if you've been fighting magic for ten years or more, the things you're seeing shouldn't be happening. They break the laws of nature, they are twisted, they are wrong. I try to RP discomfort and tension in the face of magic even if fear doesn't seem appropriate.

So perhaps that's a suggestion for anyone reading this thread: never let your PC become immune to worry/fear/discomfort in the face of witchcraft. Stoic reactions can be tempting, but they often shut down RP rather than bolster it!

I do think adding new and more flexible spells (like Dreamweave, for example) may be helpful. It's harder to be afraid when mages' powers are so similar and so similarly expressed that you get the same thing every time, and that thing's limits are known. But spells where the mage can send a thought or a nightmare or etc. are variable, and much, much harder to get used to.

[Pixie]

Worth noting: Utterly stoic reactions to magic can be pretty suspicious to your friendly neighborhood Inquisitor(s).

[Puciek]

A lot of people end up feeling that they've seen enough magic not to be afraid, or that their PC is too stoic for fear, or some combination of the two, I think. I'm sympathetic to this problem; I have literally dealt with about two dozen different shadows on my long-lived PC. That said... I think the missing element here is a lack of recognition that this thing is entirely -unnatural-. Even if you're a Knight, even if you've been fighting magic for ten years or more, the things you're seeing shouldn't be happening. They break the laws of nature, they are twisted, they are wrong. I try to RP discomfort and tension in the face of magic even if fear doesn't seem appropriate.

So perhaps that's a suggestion for anyone reading this thread: never let your PC become immune to worry/fear/discomfort in the face of witchcraft. Stoic reactions can be tempting, but they often shut down RP rather than bolster it!

I do think adding new and more flexible spells (like Dreamweave, for example) may be helpful. It's harder to be afraid when mages' powers are so similar and so similarly expressed that you get the same thing every time, and that thing's limits are known. But spells where the mage can send a thought or a nightmare or etc. are variable, and much, much harder to get used to.

That is the root of the problem - some "born with" or "acquired" immunity, but where exactly does it come from? I mean you have to take IC perspective to this question, because even if you are actively hunting mages then you won't see major display of their power more often than once every couple weeks (on average), that means less than once 1 months ICly, and for most characters a lot less than that. When exactly, based on just that and ongoing church indoctrination, was the immunity built?
Of course some characters will dot hat, for example all mage supporters etc who regularly are exposed to it, but those people are rather rare.

[Applesauce]

A shadow had my char and others absolutely freaking out because we had no idea ICly (and me OOCly) what it could do.

Unfortunately, the answer is remarkably close to "nothing". When you don't know, then yes it's an exciting scene with scary imagined dangers and endless possibilities. But after you see a little kid swipe one out of existence with little to no effort, the impact is somewhat lessened. Same with demons; the average person would be in trouble alone, but the Knights and Reeves reinforce it's no big deal and they've killed a dozen demons in their day, etc. etc.

Maybe shadows shouldn't be so easily dismissable, but rather take X damage (and have excellent evasion skills) before going away? That way the average non-combatant would have no chance to get rid of one, and even after getting some help it would take a few tries because you're literally aiming at nothing. This also gives the shadow more time to interact with folks - once I saw a shadow in Church Square with 5 or 6 other people, and before everyone even had gotten one emote out the shadow had been vanquished. Really sucks for people toward the end of pose order to be like "emote glances around nervously, wondering, 'Who said-- oh it's gone, nevermind.'"

So perhaps that's a suggestion for anyone reading this thread: never let your PC become immune to worry/fear/discomfort in the face of witchcraft. Stoic reactions can be tempting, but they often shut down RP rather than bolster it!

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[Lily]

People don't fear mages because mages can immolate them with fireballs. People fear mages because mages because mages can hex their crops, curse their unborn children, spy on them from afar, etc.

See, this is the stuff my character would be scared half to death about. Honestly, I'm almost tempted to not mention this, because I don't want my unborn children hurt, my crops hexed, etc., and I don't want to persuade mages to do this. And from what I hear, lots of really gross insideous stuff IS possible. Like, curse their unborn children? If affecting children or unborn children with magic is possible, that's REALLY scary to someone who has spent months nurturing a child. So honestly, I don't get why mages can't continue to be direct combat squishy and indirect manipulation gods.

Though I still don't get the HUGE focus on fear/death. I think someone mentioned somewhere on here that mages often rat eachother out just for the giggles. Why?? Why can't they enjoy helping eachother. Call me a pacifist, but does every mage simply want more dirty tricks/combat? From this thread it sure sounds like that's the consensus. Is there not enough interesting non-evil stuff that you can do as a mage? I heard there was lots of neat stuff possible. Perhaps that should be addressed as well.

Hmm, here's an idea, and it kind of goes along with blacksoul's ideas. Have two categories of spells. Tainted/black magic spells, which involve hexing crops, cursing unborn children, whatever. And neutral spells/white magic spells, such as blessing crops, blessing unborn children, and whatnot.

If a manus is brought back, there can even be two factions with in it, or there can be two manuses. One faction could be mages who know the evils of the taint and thus avoid curses, harmful spells, and the like. And another faction could involve people who use magic for mayhem/fight the system/destroy your enemies type things.

[Temi]

Mages certainly don't have to be mean and nasty and there's lots of cool stuff you can do with magic! In fact, most of my additions to magecrafting, which I just recently updated, were all useful or fun things, with only a few nasty ones.

And there is nothing which requires mages to rat one another out. That's entirely up to players to decide, though staff will continue to encourage mages working together by adding synergies between them as we can, and limitations on what you can do by yourself - like learning spells of another element requires meeting and working with other mages. A mage should be a fully functional enjoyable character if nobody else knows they are mage, but there's reasons to work together too.

As to the Manus, we are not opposed to the idea of it returning in some form - but we need to make sure that form is right. Unfortunately, it became a too-safe haven, a way to avoid all mage interaction that wasn't within the specific confines of this safe, proven mage-only thing, and exclusionary, rather than creating more RP. We don't want to reintroduce something that becomes that same thing again, as it made magic more stale rather than bring it to life.