So, TI's had longer than six seasons -- something like sixteen+ now, I'd imagine, and it's gone through various showrunners. At this point, I'm going to ask (literally) boldly: what keeps us here? I alluded in my post on the General board that it was community, because none of us, over the course of our poses, is probably the next Tolkien or Martin. (We might realistically be Stephenie Meyer at best.) Community allows us to enjoy playing a factious game where, at its core, we're playing dress-up, fighting wizards, airing non-sequiturs and cracking jokes, and climbing a fictional societal ladder.
We all do it differently!
My thesis is this, and you might disagree: the game is simply not good enough, nor can it ever be good enough, to outweigh tension in the community. I want to spur an honest discussion about the following topic: what is the source of this tension in the community? I firmly believe that simply ignoring it won't work, nor do I think that having a brief chat at an OOC meeting, which are all held on Saturdays, necessarily excluding those with other obligations, and moderated by staff, which might have a chilling effect, solves everything.
To borrow another analogy, when sports teams go through a midseason funk, they often call a players' only meeting. To that end, I'll kindly ask staff to remain hands-off (just as you do with RP, where you don't involve yourself save through your PCs) and not post in this thread. (Obviously, feel free to moderate!) My intention is to generate as much player discussion as possible. Afterwards, we can (and should) have a chat with the "coaches."
Anyway, I've only got a few points thus far, and I'll enumerate them, though they're in no particular order:
(1) I essentially stopped playing this game because I was tired of sticking my neck out in nearly every scene, causing conflict for others, which they invariably enjoyed, but for which I rarely received any sense of gratitude. I don't care about code-based recommendations; I want to feel valued as a member of this RP community, not see a number increment on my score sheet.
I feel that, like many other systems on TI, the availability of recommendations, which often take weeks to process, has reduced our incentive to speak with others. I miss being able to award QP, too -- that effectively combined demonstrating gratitude with a tangible benefit.
How do we encourage this behavior? How do we not unduly penalize those who -- like me -- simply responded to tells that went something like I'm in the Queen's Inn with 5 people and it's so boring, come shake things up?
(2) I notice an apparent (not real) conflict of interest that reveals itself when staff, playing powerful characters, either benefit from or opine about code/policy changes for which they advocated officially. This undoubtedly causes tension.
I will use one concrete but glossed over example, to which I attribute no malice on anyone's part, but which underscores my point. Recently, the policy on lockpicks was changed. (Note that I disagree with this policy and feel it wasn't adequately explained, which I mention only because of my conclusion in this point.) Reeves found evidence in an open room. They couldn't lock the door, because -- well, they had no lockpicks, and there was no staff around to assist. Instead, staff-played PCs arrived on scene, which resulted in a contentious end.
I feel it's not unreasonable to conclude that misgivings on both sides were warranted. But that doesn't help anyone. Things are always going to change. Staff should get to play the game too. But it's unrealistic to assume that there won't be tension based upon a perceived commingling of "official" and "personal" functions. How do we best mitigate this?
(3) I quit the knights because no one ever talked on the guild channel. It felt empty; I felt alone. Despite being available for RP, the only thing I did was swing a sword in group combat. I also remember, when I was privy to the troubadour channel, a lot of new players joined the guild and subsequently vanished into the ether. My assertion is that the OOC camaraderie within guild channels is some of the strongest glue available, and I seriously wonder: what can we do to make this stronger?
I don't feel that the application process works well when guilds are practically empty. Often, you're just an island, drifting aimlessly between taverns. As players, maybe it's time we identify consistently struggling guilds and self-nominate a fair number of us to create PCs for it: a sort of advance guard, as it were.
(4) Many plots lack firm resolution that allows for a collective sigh of relief.
I remember when we used to brainstorm plot ideas on OOC, including character ideas. How do we better manage story beats to ensure that things are kept moving? There is no single plot coordinator amongst staff. Should there be? Should we discuss things collectively and frankly, noting that it's been a while since X, but lately we've had a lot of Y?
(5) Nothing's stopping us from arranging scenes via OOC. If you're logged on during those times when most PCs are located in inaccessible or private rooms, I'm going to suggest turning on OOC and asking if anyone wants to do X. At the very least, while waiting for more RP to open up, you might happen upon a fun conversation.
Thoughts?
Community |OT| Sixteen Seasons and a Straight-to-DVD Movie
I'm not going to address the larger part of things, but I would like to talk about guild channels. I've had a number of characters in various different guilds with differing levels of play on those various characters. One two of the characters, the ooc environment of the guild channels directly pushed me out and away from those guilds. For one of them it was a lot of complaining and back biting and sniping at others in the game, expressing a general derision at the others. The people partaking of it seemed to be bonding over it, but that their humor and bonding was centered around this sort of behavior made it intensely uncomfortable for me as a player and made me not wish to be associated with that guild.
Likewise in the other guild where I saw a lot of issues, my first few days in that guild were filled with lots of arguments and disrespect on the part of those who were in the guild. They were directly disrespecting each other. There was a lot of people talking on there, but I had to keep turning the guild channels off to get away from this sort of behavior and that made it feel even more alone. For some people these sorts of things were lively and engaging I am sure, but for me it started to kill my sense of community. I don't think it is any one thing, I think it is a general lack of respect and courtesy for other players, both personally and also understanding their circumstances and situation.
Likewise in the other guild where I saw a lot of issues, my first few days in that guild were filled with lots of arguments and disrespect on the part of those who were in the guild. They were directly disrespecting each other. There was a lot of people talking on there, but I had to keep turning the guild channels off to get away from this sort of behavior and that made it feel even more alone. For some people these sorts of things were lively and engaging I am sure, but for me it started to kill my sense of community. I don't think it is any one thing, I think it is a general lack of respect and courtesy for other players, both personally and also understanding their circumstances and situation.
- The_Last_Good_Dragon
- Posts: 254
- Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2016 1:08 am
I guess the tl;dr of my response is this: everyone's going to have their different types of characters and those they take enjoyment from playing. One of the most difficult things I've always found to do is to restart; I've played role-playing MUDs for 10+ years now, since I was a wee little freshman in high school, and it's certainly taken some time for me to figure out the role I get the most satisfaction out of. Here's a spoiler: it isn't the same that most do, and in fact it seems rare that I come across people who enjoy the same flavor of writing as me. One thing that has drawn me, personally, into the Inquisition: Legacy has been how gratifying others have been to accomodate that fairly niché role that I love: the anti-hero kind-of-jerkish hates-the-system Chaotic Good sort that ultimately gets under the skin of many, throws some level of power around like it's food at a petting zoo, and does develop a few terribly wonderful friendships along the way.
- I was tired of sticking my neck out in nearly every scene, causing conflict for others— Then, perhaps you simply need to understand that playing a conflict-driving character isn't for you, or you need to take a break and try something else. Farra, for instance, is able to kind of slide between those roles as my IRL mood dictates. If I'm in a jerky mood then she can snap at some people; if she's in a charitable mood she can offer out free smiles for everyone. I know that some people are going to cry "oh, Farra's a noble, she can get away with it!" but I'll point to my first longer-term character, Alyxandra, as an example of a gentry who successfully accused a nobleman (Ariel) of fucking goats without significant IC punishment (it did, eventually, come, in a very enjoyable scene where another player took up mah Lord's honor with a fist to her smug Vavardian face). Characters that create conflict are going to be difficult to play no matter the setting and I can promise you that because I've seen it time and time again. If you do want to play a conflict-based character, you can do a lot to aleviate the OOC stress of it through OOC means, like being very communicative about 'yes, this is just the way my character is, sorry ', very clear in osays/tells what is going on and why it's happening, or even just phishing for compliments, which I absolutely sometimes do when I'm left feeling like a jerk.
- I notice an apparent (not real) conflict of interest that reveals itself when staff, playing powerful characters, either benefit from or opine about code/policy changes for which they advocated officially. This undoubtedly causes tension.— I frankly find this ridiculous. Maybe I'm just ignorant, but from my perspective I've seen several players I understand to be staff alts who take every avenue they can to resolve issues in RP rather than throwing around the power their characters operate with. And to address the monkey in the room that was apparently bitched about at OOC chat: Ariel has been a character for four years. Most characters who have existed that long whie actively working on combat prowess are going to be scary as frak. As he's always quick to point out: people don't antagonize him. Get a group together to beat the shit out of our dear Baron if you really feel that way, see how quickly they'll be willing to put their characters neck out on a line for fun RP. Because I expect it's something much more often than you'd expect. While this is ultimately coming across as blindly defending the staff, it does frustrate me to hear it when I've yet to see a single case of favoritism on the set. Again, in my long experience I've played on games where Staff members use their mortal alts to forcibly drive RP in the direction they want it to go, and I just don't see that it's happened yet. Maybe I don't know the alts of all the staff, but I simply put don't get that vibe at all.
- I quit the knights because no one ever talked on the guild channel. It felt empty; I felt alone.— While I can't comment too much on your time in the Knights, I can say my recent time there was entirely the opposite. While I do agree that I think the application process could use some tweaks, I don't feel that it's something that affects the mood or atmosphere or comradarie of a guild channel. Frankly, the Order and Court channels were both frequented by silliness when I was part of them, and I don't expect that's completely changed without my glowing personality ( ) as part of it.
- Many plots lack firm resolution that allows for a collective sigh of relief.— I somewhat do agree with this. I think plots could go for giving people more IC, in-game rewards, even if it's just a bit of silver or maybe an item or something of that nature. You do get QP for being part of that, but QP isn't the most impactful thing on this game, especially for people who aren't concerned with getting Staff help for things. However, 'resolution of storylines' is, again, something many places struggle with, and I am at least thankful that here on TLI they do find some conclusion. It's always going to be tricky coming to the end of a storyline where your character might only be involved in certain points of it and coming out feeling satisfied. Sometimes, I think, it's just up to us to play those threads out ourselves.
- Nothing blahblahblah.— Yup. This for sure. I'm always willing and open for tells or OOC communication asking for my character to end up somewhere. While I'm not always able to take it, I do make an effort. It's something that should be used more often, imho!
~~ Team Farra'n'Stuff. ~~
- Voxumo
- Posts: 655
- Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2012 7:54 am
- Location: Delta Junction, Alaska
- Discord Handle: Voxumo#7925
- Contact:
Ok I'm going to state my feelings on this point by point.
(1) I'll be honest, I've stopped trying to do plots for this very reason. Rhea is probably going to be the last character I do any majorly plot related on for awhile. Sure qp is nice and all, but what I would rather have is the plot have an affect outside of the scene. So often we have these amazing stories, rp and plot that happens, but as soon as it's over that's it. No one rps about it, no one even really acknowledges it. And that is the biggest slap in the face.
However as for how we encourage this behavior? That's hard to say really. I mean of course the immediate response would be to let them know 'hey you did good' oocly, but that really isn't different from recommending. I'd say just actually continue or involve the rp. Make it so that it's effect last longer than the scene.
(2) I'm not touching this with a ten-foot pole, since I have very, very strong opinions on this.
(3) Given your example, I can say that at the time, the Knights were pretty much dead, given how few of us there were. While the merging of the Order and Knights has helped to revive the channel a bit, I do completely agree about the camaraderie. I'm more likely to rp with those I actually enjoy speaking to, instead of feeling like I am forced to. However as for what we can do to make it stronger? Simply put encourage speaking to your fellow Guildmembers if you have a problem with them oocly. So often I feel like the camaraderie dies because of ill feelings between the people involved. So often ooc feelings towards each other that could be resolved just by talking it out, instead of letting feelings fester.
(4) I'm don't quite follow what's trying to be said here.
(5) Not quite much I can say here besides I definitely encourage trying to find scenes/rp via ooc.
(1) I'll be honest, I've stopped trying to do plots for this very reason. Rhea is probably going to be the last character I do any majorly plot related on for awhile. Sure qp is nice and all, but what I would rather have is the plot have an affect outside of the scene. So often we have these amazing stories, rp and plot that happens, but as soon as it's over that's it. No one rps about it, no one even really acknowledges it. And that is the biggest slap in the face.
However as for how we encourage this behavior? That's hard to say really. I mean of course the immediate response would be to let them know 'hey you did good' oocly, but that really isn't different from recommending. I'd say just actually continue or involve the rp. Make it so that it's effect last longer than the scene.
(2) I'm not touching this with a ten-foot pole, since I have very, very strong opinions on this.
(3) Given your example, I can say that at the time, the Knights were pretty much dead, given how few of us there were. While the merging of the Order and Knights has helped to revive the channel a bit, I do completely agree about the camaraderie. I'm more likely to rp with those I actually enjoy speaking to, instead of feeling like I am forced to. However as for what we can do to make it stronger? Simply put encourage speaking to your fellow Guildmembers if you have a problem with them oocly. So often I feel like the camaraderie dies because of ill feelings between the people involved. So often ooc feelings towards each other that could be resolved just by talking it out, instead of letting feelings fester.
(4) I'm don't quite follow what's trying to be said here.
(5) Not quite much I can say here besides I definitely encourage trying to find scenes/rp via ooc.
Lurks the Forums
I'm kind of infamous among certain areas of the pbase for often vanishing for lengthy periods of time. Or at least I think I am. Anyway. Long ago I started turning the OOC channel off and leaving it off. While I love some of the players, the OOC atmosphere on TI is just not my bag anymore.
Is that what makes me leave? No. I would contend your point that the Community is what keeps people around or sends them away. I don't think that's really the case.
In fact, my experience with games that have a major OOC component is that a focus on 'community' really just ends up in cliques and vendettas and all kinds of highschool-level drama.
Once, I was invited to a TI:L chatroom by one of the other players and it was so full of bile and hatred towards other players that I just had to leave a few minutes in.
Instead, what has me frequently departing TI for lengthy periods of time is something entirely different. The theme isn't firmly established. And where the theme is firmly established, most players either don't abide by it or willfully ignore it. Trying to correct people is like pulling teeth and marks you as That Guy. Trying to firm up the theme gets met with a decided lack of interest. You end up having to do it yourself and just submit it to staff for review. If there's a community problem on TI, I think it's the community's refusal to actually play in the realm of Urth and instead play in some generic fantasy game with Christian and Medieval overtones.
When I came back from my second to last hiatus, I don't think there was a single character in a leadership position who was actually doing their job as dictated in the helpfiles, as an example. It's just not encouraging when you play these games for immersion.
I think improving this area would do better for making TI a more enjoyable place to be.
But that's just the thoughts of this oldbie curmudgeon. I don't expect anyone to agree. In fact I expect them to disagree vehemently.
Is that what makes me leave? No. I would contend your point that the Community is what keeps people around or sends them away. I don't think that's really the case.
In fact, my experience with games that have a major OOC component is that a focus on 'community' really just ends up in cliques and vendettas and all kinds of highschool-level drama.
Once, I was invited to a TI:L chatroom by one of the other players and it was so full of bile and hatred towards other players that I just had to leave a few minutes in.
Instead, what has me frequently departing TI for lengthy periods of time is something entirely different. The theme isn't firmly established. And where the theme is firmly established, most players either don't abide by it or willfully ignore it. Trying to correct people is like pulling teeth and marks you as That Guy. Trying to firm up the theme gets met with a decided lack of interest. You end up having to do it yourself and just submit it to staff for review. If there's a community problem on TI, I think it's the community's refusal to actually play in the realm of Urth and instead play in some generic fantasy game with Christian and Medieval overtones.
When I came back from my second to last hiatus, I don't think there was a single character in a leadership position who was actually doing their job as dictated in the helpfiles, as an example. It's just not encouraging when you play these games for immersion.
I think improving this area would do better for making TI a more enjoyable place to be.
But that's just the thoughts of this oldbie curmudgeon. I don't expect anyone to agree. In fact I expect them to disagree vehemently.
That's my niche too.The_Last_Good_Dragon wrote:One thing that has drawn me, personally, into the Inquisition: Legacy has been how gratifying others have been to accomodate that fairly niché role that I love: the anti-hero kind-of-jerkish hates-the-system Chaotic Good sort that ultimately gets under the skin of many, throws some level of power around like it's food at a petting zoo, and does develop a few terribly wonderful friendships along the way.
You do a good job with that! I try to be that way too. It's not so much the reactions, but rather the fact that it often feels like there's this need for certain people to "shake things up," and that short straw isn't really rotated around as much as it could be.The_Last_Good_Dragon wrote:If you do want to play a conflict-based character, you can do a lot to aleviate the OOC stress of it through OOC means, like being very communicative about 'yes, this is just the way my character is, sorry ', very clear in osays/tells what is going on and why it's happening, or even just phishing for compliments, which I absolutely sometimes do when I'm left feeling like a jerk.
You misapprehended my point, or maybe I wasn't clear: the point isn't anything Ariel does ICly, to use him as an example, because I consider that wholly belonging to the IC realm. The point is that there can, at times, be an apparent (vice real) conflict of interest because of certain PCs being dual-hatted as staff. HIs scariness is a non-issue, because he isn't the problem. If there is a problem, and I'm not even sure there is one (but the fact that there was an argument at those OOC meetings I don't attend), but I'm only raising it because I think one minor point is worth discussing: whether the perception here is negatively impacting the community.The_Last_Good_Dragon wrote:[*]...Maybe I'm just ignorant, but from my perspective I've seen several players I understand to be staff alts who take every avenue they can to resolve issues in RP rather than throwing around the power their characters operate with. And to address the monkey in the room that was apparently bitched about at OOC chat: Ariel has been a character for four years. Most characters who have existed that long whie actively working on combat prowess are going to be scary as frak. As he's always quick to point out: people don't antagonize him. Get a group together to beat the shit out of our dear Baron if you really feel that way, see how quickly they'll be willing to put their characters neck out on a line for fun RP.
I tried to be very meticulous in my wording. I know a lot of staff alts. Maybe you do too at this point. I'm not accusing them of doing anything; I simply haven't been around the game since mid-December. Nor do I attend OOC chats -- I don't like them, and I usually have other things to do on Saturdays. But the fact that there was an issue raised there means maybe it's worth talking about.The_Last_Good_Dragon wrote:While this is ultimately coming across as blindly defending the staff, it does frustrate me to hear it when I've yet to see a single case of favoritism on the set.
Thanks for your reply, even if we're not of like minds on things! That's the point here -- fruitful discussion!
In a scene atm so can't commit to a lengthy reply. However, I can say that doing the plots I did, both as Casimir and later as staffer Iris, took a lot out of me. It's surprisingly tiring, sitting in a chair for seven hours at a time, ignoring your fiance and life to write a short D&D adventure for a bunch of strangers, and then getting some mixed messages of if it was a hit or a wreck.
Also, good moment to express the guilt I feel over straight abandoning the Darkest Day plot line on staff's shoulders, and not following it to conclusion. The MUD really started taking more chunks of my life than I wanted it to, and with an engagement coming up (I did get engaged, for anyone wondering! Getting married in October) I didn't want to keep sitting in a chair contributing seven hour scenes at a time to a MUD that wasn't my own. I both loved and hated doing it and was probably the very definition of 'revolving door staffer who fucks everything up', even though I swore to myself I wouldn't be.
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Now, out of the scene! In no particular order:
I hate guild OOC channels because it's the stupidest bunch of drivel ever. Except when I'm a GL and I need to ask them about my edits to helpfiles and shit. But even then, most of that stuff gets erased or retconned, so w/e dawg. Don't read too much into my hate for the channel, I'm one of those odd ducks who would be perfectly fine without OOC channels IG. I'm indifferent on the debate, really.
As for the subject of theme, Rabek, I'm sure you know that this gets tossed around every couple months or so. Eventually a group of people get a hair up their ass (I've had it a dozen times) to clarify portions of the theme. Sometimes it'll be really productive, like in the case of TPB Iain writing whole pre-Histories of the world, or Olivia defining whole sections of Orderite lore. Sometimes nothing will come of it. People get burnt out, they lose the point, etc. Yeah, staff could step up and really push for 'this is how the theme is and you must obey' and it'd probably be great because they're all really great storytellers, but that's not their style, and who are we to tell Kinaed how to run her game?
And really, that's my attitude for most shit nowadays. I have more fun when I'm not committed. When I get committed and start caring, I start getting passionate, and passion leads to the Dark side folks.
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On another note: I've had multiple instances in the past of people claiming I only did/got X because I was a favorite. From my perspective, and I haven't been here very much lately just like Gavin, it's nonexistent. But then again, I'm a favorite, so BOOYA %^#$$ER.
Kidding. Seriously, if anything, I'm the least favorite red-headed step child. And need I remind you that any three people with 60+ combat skills can probably kill Ariel. So, yeah. Go do that.
Also, good moment to express the guilt I feel over straight abandoning the Darkest Day plot line on staff's shoulders, and not following it to conclusion. The MUD really started taking more chunks of my life than I wanted it to, and with an engagement coming up (I did get engaged, for anyone wondering! Getting married in October) I didn't want to keep sitting in a chair contributing seven hour scenes at a time to a MUD that wasn't my own. I both loved and hated doing it and was probably the very definition of 'revolving door staffer who fucks everything up', even though I swore to myself I wouldn't be.
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Now, out of the scene! In no particular order:
Think bigger.No one rps about it, no one even really acknowledges it. And that is the biggest slap in the face.
I hate guild OOC channels because it's the stupidest bunch of drivel ever. Except when I'm a GL and I need to ask them about my edits to helpfiles and shit. But even then, most of that stuff gets erased or retconned, so w/e dawg. Don't read too much into my hate for the channel, I'm one of those odd ducks who would be perfectly fine without OOC channels IG. I'm indifferent on the debate, really.
Ooh, Ooh! Was I mentioned? But seriously, this is a long-time staple of every MUD. You'll always have that chatroom full of the cool kids that rag on everyone else. Oddly enough I've never been invited to that group here (you fuckers) but I've been in such groups other places. They're pretty venomous, and yet oddly cathartic, at least for me. It's nice to know other people have a problem with the same people you have a problem with. Nothing odd there, just humans being humans.Once, I was invited to a TI:L chatroom by one of the other players and it was so full of bile and hatred towards other players that I just had to leave a few minutes in.
As for the subject of theme, Rabek, I'm sure you know that this gets tossed around every couple months or so. Eventually a group of people get a hair up their ass (I've had it a dozen times) to clarify portions of the theme. Sometimes it'll be really productive, like in the case of TPB Iain writing whole pre-Histories of the world, or Olivia defining whole sections of Orderite lore. Sometimes nothing will come of it. People get burnt out, they lose the point, etc. Yeah, staff could step up and really push for 'this is how the theme is and you must obey' and it'd probably be great because they're all really great storytellers, but that's not their style, and who are we to tell Kinaed how to run her game?
And really, that's my attitude for most shit nowadays. I have more fun when I'm not committed. When I get committed and start caring, I start getting passionate, and passion leads to the Dark side folks.
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On another note: I've had multiple instances in the past of people claiming I only did/got X because I was a favorite. From my perspective, and I haven't been here very much lately just like Gavin, it's nonexistent. But then again, I'm a favorite, so BOOYA %^#$$ER.
Kidding. Seriously, if anything, I'm the least favorite red-headed step child. And need I remind you that any three people with 60+ combat skills can probably kill Ariel. So, yeah. Go do that.
Player of: Alexander ab Courtland
Oo, interesting thread - thanks for starting it, Lando!
Just my perceptions:
1. Tired of sticking your neck out - I'm sure this is some of the case, but honestly, this could just be due to how long you've been on TI. I took a course on gamification, and in there they discussed that all players go through a cycle, and it's the same cycle for everyone: 1) It's new and shiny, omg so awesome. 2) I know this system, I got this down, and I'm a peak performer. 3) Oh, I've been doing this for awhile, it's starting to get dull... but wait, I've got something to lose if I walk away, be it friendships or 40,000 hours worth of XP. I'm certain that your perception of this problem is partly true, but I also think that a portion of this is simply because you've been around for the long, long time.
2. Staff and powerful characters - I've struggled with this. I get a complaint and listen to it, but when I dig for what the staff are actually doing, they're not doing anything different than any other player in the same circumstances. In fact, I think some of the complaints I've fielded on this most recently were more around the FEAR that staff could or would cheat rather than any evidence that we actually do.
As far as I have been able to detect, there are no staff giving staff special abilities, no staff ruling on their own storylines or policy issues, no providing themselves with advantages, nothing like that. There are no staff breaking rules, and there are no staff trying to leverage other players to create the outcomes they want OOCly, nor abusing any special staff tools, etc. In fact, even staff having 'powerful characters' is curtailed by our rules on guild leadership. Noble staff characters? They sit under a PC regent - and each and every one was an app that was reviewed and approved (did you know I personally have had applications rejected or modified by other staff?). At least two of us have been PKed by players who had no idea they were killing a staff member (including me).
When I hear the complaints, I get outraged that the staff could be abusive - but then I take the time to investigate the complaints closely to make sure I understand what's happening. Never once have I actually seen the staff leveraging their staff-ness. What I have seen is a great deal of player fear that we could or would, and complaining behind our backs that we do. I've also investigated recent complaints where I was told that a staff member was doing something, but then when the logs came through, I found out that they just didn't stack up to demonstrate what I had been told was happening.
3. No one ever talked on the guild channel - I'm a different type of player; I find the guild channels more annoying than helpful, and I turn them off. Don't really have much to say about that other than to each their own.
4. Plots lack firm resolution - that's because they're not scripted and are in player hands. A lot of plots do get firm resolution, behind closed doors. I do sort of wish we had better communications around this stuff, but I think it's the personalities and communication skills of the players handling them that the bulk of this falls to. We don't have the staff manpower to consistently run plots (hence the story system and limited style RPA plot system versus many long, drawn out quests) and resolve this for players. That's why we don't promise to run plots and often leave the game in player plot-driven hands. Please allow me to invite everyone to be the change they want to see on this point.
5. Nothing blahblahblah - I've come to learn that almost everything that people say about one another is a perception. Because TI is a conflict-driven game (let's be honest, it's boring when everyone gets along, particularly ICly), it's very easy for people to get angry at someone else. Then they talk about what the other person did to deserve it to all and sundry, and their perception spreads - the perception can take on a larger life than it deserves. Please remember that when someone tells you something awful about someone else.
I recently fielded a complaint that someone was pressuring someone OOCly, and when I read the log, I was fairly certain that no one else would have seen it that way, but clearly the person who complained to me did see it that way. Quite similarly, are the staff really demonstrable asshats? Or are we just people who make mistakes now and again or irritate people ICly by playing our characters the same way anyone else would? If it's the former, I'm surprised anyone is sticking around, and if it's the latter, then I think a certain level of allowance needs to be made because none of us are better than human.
To the person who noted that the application process could use some tweaks - please let me know what you'd change in a different thread or contact me in game? Thanks!
Just my perceptions:
1. Tired of sticking your neck out - I'm sure this is some of the case, but honestly, this could just be due to how long you've been on TI. I took a course on gamification, and in there they discussed that all players go through a cycle, and it's the same cycle for everyone: 1) It's new and shiny, omg so awesome. 2) I know this system, I got this down, and I'm a peak performer. 3) Oh, I've been doing this for awhile, it's starting to get dull... but wait, I've got something to lose if I walk away, be it friendships or 40,000 hours worth of XP. I'm certain that your perception of this problem is partly true, but I also think that a portion of this is simply because you've been around for the long, long time.
2. Staff and powerful characters - I've struggled with this. I get a complaint and listen to it, but when I dig for what the staff are actually doing, they're not doing anything different than any other player in the same circumstances. In fact, I think some of the complaints I've fielded on this most recently were more around the FEAR that staff could or would cheat rather than any evidence that we actually do.
As far as I have been able to detect, there are no staff giving staff special abilities, no staff ruling on their own storylines or policy issues, no providing themselves with advantages, nothing like that. There are no staff breaking rules, and there are no staff trying to leverage other players to create the outcomes they want OOCly, nor abusing any special staff tools, etc. In fact, even staff having 'powerful characters' is curtailed by our rules on guild leadership. Noble staff characters? They sit under a PC regent - and each and every one was an app that was reviewed and approved (did you know I personally have had applications rejected or modified by other staff?). At least two of us have been PKed by players who had no idea they were killing a staff member (including me).
When I hear the complaints, I get outraged that the staff could be abusive - but then I take the time to investigate the complaints closely to make sure I understand what's happening. Never once have I actually seen the staff leveraging their staff-ness. What I have seen is a great deal of player fear that we could or would, and complaining behind our backs that we do. I've also investigated recent complaints where I was told that a staff member was doing something, but then when the logs came through, I found out that they just didn't stack up to demonstrate what I had been told was happening.
3. No one ever talked on the guild channel - I'm a different type of player; I find the guild channels more annoying than helpful, and I turn them off. Don't really have much to say about that other than to each their own.
4. Plots lack firm resolution - that's because they're not scripted and are in player hands. A lot of plots do get firm resolution, behind closed doors. I do sort of wish we had better communications around this stuff, but I think it's the personalities and communication skills of the players handling them that the bulk of this falls to. We don't have the staff manpower to consistently run plots (hence the story system and limited style RPA plot system versus many long, drawn out quests) and resolve this for players. That's why we don't promise to run plots and often leave the game in player plot-driven hands. Please allow me to invite everyone to be the change they want to see on this point.
5. Nothing blahblahblah - I've come to learn that almost everything that people say about one another is a perception. Because TI is a conflict-driven game (let's be honest, it's boring when everyone gets along, particularly ICly), it's very easy for people to get angry at someone else. Then they talk about what the other person did to deserve it to all and sundry, and their perception spreads - the perception can take on a larger life than it deserves. Please remember that when someone tells you something awful about someone else.
I recently fielded a complaint that someone was pressuring someone OOCly, and when I read the log, I was fairly certain that no one else would have seen it that way, but clearly the person who complained to me did see it that way. Quite similarly, are the staff really demonstrable asshats? Or are we just people who make mistakes now and again or irritate people ICly by playing our characters the same way anyone else would? If it's the former, I'm surprised anyone is sticking around, and if it's the latter, then I think a certain level of allowance needs to be made because none of us are better than human.
To the person who noted that the application process could use some tweaks - please let me know what you'd change in a different thread or contact me in game? Thanks!
- Voxumo
- Posts: 655
- Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2012 7:54 am
- Location: Delta Junction, Alaska
- Discord Handle: Voxumo#7925
- Contact:
The plot expanded a full ooc year, had multiple key points throughout it, and most of those key points were ignored by the player base as a whole. I can't get much bigger than having my mage walk into a pyring, spouting off information that could or could not prove that the order is lying to the people, hiding information, working with mages, that the knights are failing to protect the people, etc etc. I mean sure I planned on going bigger but death has a funny way of killing plans.Think bigger.No one rps about it, no one even really acknowledges it. And that is the biggest slap in the face.
We have/had a chatroom?Once, I was invited to a TI:L chatroom by one of the other players and it was so full of bile and hatred towards other players that I just had to leave a few minutes in.
Lurks the Forums
Yet another point by point post. Whee!
1) Tired of sticking neck out: If it's irking you, stahp. Whereas your (Lando) personal brand of conflict-for-the-sake-of-conflict does and always has tickled me to no end, it's not something that's required of you to keep RP going. It's worth considering (with all the player-to-player affection in the world) that many people aren't waiting for someone else to come in and falconpunch turmoil into a scene. What I mean to say is: People have different tastes, and they may not be expressing gratitude because they don't feel grateful for a seemingly random scene reroute. Conflict is neither better or worse than any other sort of RP, and if you're weary of sticking your neck out to provide it, the weight of the MUD need not rest on your shoulders to keep moving forward.
Where Voxumo's situation is concerned, I think a whole lot of folks (myself included) enjoyed what he did with his recent conflict character, but most of the comments I've seen made regarding people failing to acknowledge him I'd counter were based on character actions that just weren't that compelling to the people he tried engaging. It's a disappointing thing to try and fail to make a big splash in the pool, but it happens. It sucks, but what was done just didn't engage the audience. When you're specifically after a reaction from an audience, gotta swallow a whole heaping spoonful of "what would THEY find engaging?". Sometimes that's really hard to narrow down, but based on Rhea I'm very excited to see whatever he comes up with next.
2) Staff alts: I don't have a whole lot to say on the Staff characters topic beyond what would probably start out a brief quip and end up an essay about the overblown nature of text-based paranoia. I'll say this, solely my POV: I don't feel it's Staff playing the game within every constraint of rules that's a problem here.
3) Guild channel talk: Not a diehard fan of guild channel talk. It's enjoyable sometimes. Really handy for answering and asking questions. Definitely a "to each their own" kinda deal.
4) Plot resolution: I honestly do see a fair quantity of plot resolution through the coded plot system. You do have to involve yourself in it (or on occasion just be lucky/long-term enough to be a natural addition on the topic), but resolutions take place. Not always, but often enough to be mostly satisfying. I can relate to the frustration, just for (maybe?) different reasons -- I've all but headdesk'd during a couple threads that just wouldn't finish. Try and try as I and lots of others might, we just couldn't get our heads together (or the right players willing and/or able to participate) enough to get any traction. I strongly feel this responsibility falls on us as a game-wide group.
We're the actors, so to speak, and the vast majority of the time also the directors. If half the cast would rather not show up to the production we're not going to finish it. I'd probably be irritated to check IC Events and discover Staff tied up all the loose ends of a plot rather than let us keep plugging away at it, especially if it was solely for the sake of doing so.
---------
Totally unrelated to the list, but touching on some of the comments made by others:
People probably shouldn't feel comfortable openly spewing bile about other players on their guild channels (not on any in-game channels, really, but those are semi-public and seen by Staff, making it especially bizarre). The community atmosphere wasn't like this in the recent past. That sort of thing would have been shut down and deemed as inappropriate and poisonous as it is. While it's only one visible point along the scale of "ick", it's a decent posterboy for the greater atmosphere of abusive-behavior-acceptance we've got piling up. Blaming Staff is a no-go. I can't pick out a single thing they or their alts are doing differently now compared to a year ago, and a year ago this wasn't a thing.
There's a term in my alltime favorite RP-game-relevant article that I strongly suspect applies here (includes foul language):
1) Tired of sticking neck out: If it's irking you, stahp. Whereas your (Lando) personal brand of conflict-for-the-sake-of-conflict does and always has tickled me to no end, it's not something that's required of you to keep RP going. It's worth considering (with all the player-to-player affection in the world) that many people aren't waiting for someone else to come in and falconpunch turmoil into a scene. What I mean to say is: People have different tastes, and they may not be expressing gratitude because they don't feel grateful for a seemingly random scene reroute. Conflict is neither better or worse than any other sort of RP, and if you're weary of sticking your neck out to provide it, the weight of the MUD need not rest on your shoulders to keep moving forward.
Where Voxumo's situation is concerned, I think a whole lot of folks (myself included) enjoyed what he did with his recent conflict character, but most of the comments I've seen made regarding people failing to acknowledge him I'd counter were based on character actions that just weren't that compelling to the people he tried engaging. It's a disappointing thing to try and fail to make a big splash in the pool, but it happens. It sucks, but what was done just didn't engage the audience. When you're specifically after a reaction from an audience, gotta swallow a whole heaping spoonful of "what would THEY find engaging?". Sometimes that's really hard to narrow down, but based on Rhea I'm very excited to see whatever he comes up with next.
2) Staff alts: I don't have a whole lot to say on the Staff characters topic beyond what would probably start out a brief quip and end up an essay about the overblown nature of text-based paranoia. I'll say this, solely my POV: I don't feel it's Staff playing the game within every constraint of rules that's a problem here.
3) Guild channel talk: Not a diehard fan of guild channel talk. It's enjoyable sometimes. Really handy for answering and asking questions. Definitely a "to each their own" kinda deal.
4) Plot resolution: I honestly do see a fair quantity of plot resolution through the coded plot system. You do have to involve yourself in it (or on occasion just be lucky/long-term enough to be a natural addition on the topic), but resolutions take place. Not always, but often enough to be mostly satisfying. I can relate to the frustration, just for (maybe?) different reasons -- I've all but headdesk'd during a couple threads that just wouldn't finish. Try and try as I and lots of others might, we just couldn't get our heads together (or the right players willing and/or able to participate) enough to get any traction. I strongly feel this responsibility falls on us as a game-wide group.
We're the actors, so to speak, and the vast majority of the time also the directors. If half the cast would rather not show up to the production we're not going to finish it. I'd probably be irritated to check IC Events and discover Staff tied up all the loose ends of a plot rather than let us keep plugging away at it, especially if it was solely for the sake of doing so.
---------
Totally unrelated to the list, but touching on some of the comments made by others:
People probably shouldn't feel comfortable openly spewing bile about other players on their guild channels (not on any in-game channels, really, but those are semi-public and seen by Staff, making it especially bizarre). The community atmosphere wasn't like this in the recent past. That sort of thing would have been shut down and deemed as inappropriate and poisonous as it is. While it's only one visible point along the scale of "ick", it's a decent posterboy for the greater atmosphere of abusive-behavior-acceptance we've got piling up. Blaming Staff is a no-go. I can't pick out a single thing they or their alts are doing differently now compared to a year ago, and a year ago this wasn't a thing.
There's a term in my alltime favorite RP-game-relevant article that I strongly suspect applies here (includes foul language):
(If you're bored, the article -- linked in the quote -- is funny, stupid, and at times painfully accurate, though be warned, it does have some bad language and offensive terms. It's my go-to slap in the chops whenever I feel myself getting carried away with OOC MUD theatrics. I should probably be reading it now.)http://wadewilson.livejournal.com/11285.html
Another issue to be on guard for when considering perspective is the commiseration spiral. A commiseration spiral occurs when two or more people who have been mildly put-out by a certain person's actions realize they share the same feelings, and rather than speaking to the offending person to try to resolve their differences, they instead proceed to complain to each other and reinforce their negative reactions until their opinion of that person is radically altered and exaggerated.
Por ejemplo:
Harland is playing Captain Humongous, Penelope is playing Rocket Tits, and Squeeb is playing Farnokk The Thrusting. Squeeb has been plotting an epic Farnokk The Thrusting saga for quite some time, and Squeeb is very excited about playing it through, as there are parts for both Captain Humongous and Rocket Tits. So excited, in fact, that he commits a hasty error of omission, and continues Farnokk's Mighty Thrusting attack on the Sinister Space Trolls without realizing that Rocket Tits has called for his help with fighting Captain Humongous.
Penelope is struck with the impression that Squeeb is ignoring her, and says as much to Harland, tentatively. The exchange may go something like this.
Penelope: "Hey, I think Squeeb didn't even read my pose."
Harland: "Maybe not. Huh. Maybe he just skimmed it."
Penelope: "Or maybe he doesn't really like me."
Harland: "Or maybe he doesn't like ME."
Penelope: "You know, I bet he's pissed about that time Captain Humongous kissed Rocket Tits outside of the laundromat."
Harland: "Nobody understands our love."
Penelope: "I can't BELIEVE he'd be this petty about something like that! It was our choice to make with the characters, and who is he to throw it in our faces, like he's some RP god who doesn't even read poses?
Harland: "I'm so sick of this kind of bullshit! It's hurting the game, it is, and it's driving players away!"
Penelope: "I bet Johnny Chundernuts quit because of that crap, too!"
Harland: "Son of a witch! He probably sits around at home, masturbating to poultry porn and trying to increase his power on the game! You can't even talk to him anymore!"
Penelope: "I know! It's got to STOP, I'm TIRED of this kind of treatment!"
Squeeb: "Hey, Harland, it's your turn."
Penelope & Harland: "YOU STAB THE ELDERLY WITH RUSTY PIRATE SHIP ANCHORS!"
Squeeb: "... wh-what?"
And so on.
A simple mistake that could have been rectified by a gentle prod turns into a massive conspiracy theory about power plays and personal invectives. The commiseration spiral is a slippery slope indeed.
Last edited by Pixie on Wed Feb 17, 2016 6:11 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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