Community |OT| Sixteen Seasons and a Straight-to-DVD Movie

[Gavin]

Oo, interesting thread - thanks for starting it, Lando!

I suppose that, since you chimed in, we can open the thread up to everyone now.

1. Tired of sticking your neck out - I'm sure this is some of the case, but honestly, this could just be due to how long you've been on TI. I took a course on gamification, and in there they discussed that all players go through a cycle, and it's the same cycle for everyone: 1) It's new and shiny, omg so awesome. 2) I know this system, I got this down, and I'm a peak performer. 3) Oh, I've been doing this for awhile, it's starting to get dull... but wait, I've got something to lose if I walk away, be it friendships or 40,000 hours worth of XP. I'm certain that your perception of this problem is partly true, but I also think that a portion of this is simply because you've been around for the long, long time.

It's possible, but other people have said similar things. I want to refocus this back on my original point, which was that a lack of gratitude often disincentivizes people from doing things. You're going back to gamification, and I'm telling you, full stop, that things like recommends and QP do not wholly incentivize people. There is a human element, and that's where community comes into play.

This is something that players need to consider when dealing with each other. It's not something that can be remedied by code changes.

2. Staff and powerful characters - I've struggled with this. I get a complaint and listen to it, but when I dig for what the staff are actually doing, they're not doing anything different than any other player in the same circumstances. In fact, I think some of the complaints I've fielded on this most recently were more around the FEAR that staff could or would cheat rather than any evidence that we actually do.

I never complained that staff were doing anything improper. I'm not privy to other players' complaints. My point is this: if a non-trivial amount of players are raising concerns about the fear that staff could or would do something improper, then this either stems from irrational fear or the appearance of impropriety. Both of these can be mitigated. I talked about this with Takta last night.

As far as I have been able to detect, there are no staff giving staff special abilities, no staff ruling on their own storylines or policy issues, no providing themselves with advantages, nothing like that. There are no staff breaking rules, and there are no staff trying to leverage other players to create the outcomes they want OOCly, nor abusing any special staff tools, etc. In fact, even staff having 'powerful characters' is curtailed by our rules on guild leadership. Noble staff characters? They sit under a PC regent - and each and every one was an app that was reviewed and approved (did you know I personally have had applications rejected or modified by other staff?). At least two of us have been PKed by players who had no idea they were killing a staff member (including me).

The "PC regent" argument doesn't hold much water, for reasons we both know: it's "close enough." On the other hand, personally, I don't care if staff play GLs. That's not something that's ever bothered me, but it bothers others, and again -- if there's a non-trivial amount, then it's the process that could stand to be improved. That's all I'm saying.

The disconnect between fear and reality causes tension. And, it seems, you merely saying "this is reality" doesn't 100% mitigate this disconnect. Communication does. I think this thread is helpful. I think your personal anecdotes are useful. I think it helps when I say that I went through much of what Takta's going through right now on my last character (i.e., the powerful character seemingly with fingers in every plot), but I can translate that better because (I hope) it's obvious I've got no dog in the fight.

When I hear the complaints, I get outraged that the staff could be abusive - but then I take the time to investigate the complaints closely to make sure I understand what's happening. Never once have I actually seen the staff leveraging their staff-ness. What I have seen is a great deal of player fear that we could or would, and complaining behind our backs that we do. I've also investigated recent complaints where I was told that a staff member was doing something, but then when the logs came through, I found out that they just didn't stack up to demonstrate what I had been told was happening.

Do you not think it's a problem that there are multiple complaints and that there exists player fear? Don't you think that communication could be improved somehow to reduce or forestall this fear from happening in the first place? Fear, when left alone, grows and causes dissent. And then we end up with what's been described to me as a tense situation.

4. Plots lack firm resolution - that's because they're not scripted and are in player hands. A lot of plots do get firm resolution, behind closed doors. I do sort of wish we had better communications around this stuff, but I think it's the personalities and communication skills of the players handling them that the bulk of this falls to. We don't have the staff manpower to consistently run plots (hence the story system and limited style RPA plot system versus many long, drawn out quests) and resolve this for players. That's why we don't promise to run plots and often leave the game in player plot-driven hands. Please allow me to invite everyone to be the change they want to see on this point.

I feel this is incorrect. Plots are partially scripted (they have to be, by design) and they're partially in player hands. Your comment that we merely "be the change they want to see" is fully on point with players' own plots; it's not squarely on point with those that are shared between players and staff. This is actually someone else's point, which I posted for them, so I'll see if there's additional discussion on it.

5. Nothing blahblahblah - I've come to learn that almost everything that people say about one another is a perception. Because TI is a conflict-driven game (let's be honest, it's boring when everyone gets along, particularly ICly), it's very easy for people to get angry at someone else. Then they talk about what the other person did to deserve it to all and sundry, and their perception spreads - the perception can take on a larger life than it deserves. Please remember that when someone tells you something awful about someone else.

Yes, I'm largely talking about perception and its negative effects on community. I feel that it's a rather divisive problem and that honest communication can help blunt those effects. Thanks for participating, but considering we're talking about perception (vice reality), all not unreasonable complaints or issues are by definition valid. An "everything's fine!" mentality doesn't really address what's at issue.

[Tremere]

The "PC regent" argument doesn't hold much water, for reasons we both know: it's "close enough."

I'm afraid that I don't understand this at all? I've only ever had two times where staff handed down a decision to me on something and that was on the subject of lockpicking because they wanted to reinforce theme there and the changing of 'house knights' to Chevalier to help eliminate confusion with the knight guild. So I don't understand what this means.

[Kinaed]

In reply to Lando -

With regards to people complaining about "staff alts" running the game and its effects on the pbase, and am I not concerned about that... yes, of course I am concerned! However, being concerned isn't what people who believe this want, they want action. And we have taken action, which I think has facilitated this discussion happening today. I think your commentary predisposes on the belief of these things:

1) That the issue is something that I personally actually CAN do something about. Just telling someone that they're wrong not only tends to have the opposite effect of convincing them, but it also causes strife. When I hear these complaints, I take them seriously, but I am truly stumped about how to fix this short of taking drastic, obviously unfair actions in the name of satisfying the small handful of people. Those people have a shared perception that my own direct investigations of the complaints have disproved being related to, at the very least, policy (which is what I handle).

The last time I received complaints, I asked what outcome the complaining party wanted. I was explicitly told: please A) strip Tomas out of office and/or B) "forcibly retire" Ariel. Remember, neither of those players have actually broken any policies at all, and if I did either of the above actions to anyone else - it'd be awful of me. The requester viewed this as a reasonable intervention from myself in "these circumstances", but what would anyone else think? Could I live with myself? I replied to theses suggestions with "That's unlikely, but what I can and will do is talk to both of them about this perception and see what we can do to move towards fixing it." So I did - the talk with Ariel resulted in Ariel raising the concern in the OOC Chat with the hopes of discussing the problem with people, bringing it out of behind closed doors, and rationally trying to work through it. He predicated our ability to have permission to speak about the issue openly. My talk with Tomas resulted in Tomas saying that he would hold weekly Court meetings and keep the perception in mind when going about his business to actively reduce it as best he could. Both of these parties are taking the complaints seriously and trying to do something positive to improve the situation in the best way they know how... but how do you propose we change people's minds? What do players expect any of us to do? What should I personally be doing to fix other people's perceptions that are wrong, beyond having conversations like this and saying "I genuinely believe this to be largely a perception rather than reality"?

This is a hard problem - we need community direction to resolve it - because what has been asked and expected of staff thus far isn't right or fair, and I don't believe we feel like there's much we CAN do.

2) That the issue is something that I'm actually responsible to do something about. At absolute worst, the best evidence I have of staff alts "running the game" is that players are fearful and take no action when in conflict with a known staff alt. That's hardly evidence of the staff member doing anything wrong, and ignores a heap of tools at their disposal to take matters into their own hands. As a person said before, it only takes three or so average fighters to take out a maxed out combatant. There's heaps of other options too - from GLAs, to poison to bounties, to framing them for a crime... etc etc etc. Coming to me on this particular issue is basically like people handling their IC problems with a nuclear bomb. I'm not the appropriate tool for this particular job, and there are many more tools (IC ones!) at people's disposal.

My personal pledge is that staff will manage staff alts with the same esteem and put them through the same process according to policy as anyone else who comes through the system. So, if you follow the rules and successfully PK/displace/exile/defang, etc a staff alt, then your problems in that regard are solved. Please, people - handle your own problems. The tools are there.

In closing, please consider where these perceptions are coming from. If a person has a theory that staff alts are running the game, cherry picks evidence that supports that view (which is a natural human phenomenon), then spreads it in tells, emails, and these private witch chats that have recently been mentioned - what are staff supposed to do when it gets to us?

We've chosen to go with "Dear community, we're hearing these things terrible things... what about these things is true? Does this warrant our attention and action, and if so, what is the appropriate action?" Frankly, I personally am not feeling wise enough to decide this one on my own.

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NOTE: I edited this a bit after re-reading Lando's post.

[Jules]

I have very little interest in OOCly interacting with the entire pbase on a regular basis, largely because I'm an antisocial, elitist, curmudgeonly sort of hermit, but I do see the need for a healthy community, even if I don't make myself a part of the usual banter.

As others have suggested, one of the best ways we can all help maintain a healthy community is by keeping OOC conversations constructive and encouraging our fellow players to do the same. Across all channels. All the time. Habitual unproductive bitching is a great way to mire the community in negativity and bad juju, and people can fall into this feedback loop (as Pixie described) without even realizing it.

(1) I essentially stopped playing this game because I was tired of sticking my neck out in nearly every scene, causing conflict for others, which they invariably enjoyed, but for which I rarely received any sense of gratitude. I don't care about code-based recommendations; I want to feel valued as a member of this RP community, not see a number increment on my score sheet.

I feel that, like many other systems on TI, the availability of recommendations, which often take weeks to process, has reduced our incentive to speak with others. I miss being able to award QP, too -- that effectively combined demonstrating gratitude with a tangible benefit.

Ending a fun scene with a thank you to your fellow player(s) is a fine way to show gratitude and foster camaraderie, and I do it regularly, but I'm certainly not going to feel pressured to thank someone OOCly. Ever. Also, keep in mind that the recommendation system allows for anonymity -- tells don't. (And I'm wondering how you can be so sure that people "invariably enjoyed" themselves if they didn't express their gratitude...)

If you want more thank-yous, give out more thank-yous (yes, be the change you want to see). If you still don't get a lot of thank-yous after that, you might seriously consider whether the kind of experience you're providing is the sort that others are likely to enjoy at a given moment -- and if it's not, don't take it personally. Pixie made some really good points. Play an antagonist because you enjoy it, not because you're looking for praise. Actually, that goes for any brand of character, antagonist or not.

Often, the biggest compliment another player can give me is by ICly reaching out to arrange another meeting or ICly seeking me out for more RP.

[Pixie]

The "PC regent" argument doesn't hold much water, for reasons we both know: it's "close enough."

I'm afraid that I don't understand this at all? I've only ever had two times where staff handed down a decision to me on something and that was on the subject of lockpicking because they wanted to reinforce theme there and the changing of 'house knights' to Chevalier to help eliminate confusion with the knight guild. So I don't understand what this means.

You know what, buddy?

Totally not what this was about, but you do an amazing job as PC Regent. You're accessible, don't use the role for furthering personal player goals/vendettas, go out of your way to involve other people in whatever you reasonably can, act decisively on plots that should involve the Crown rather than leave them to fizzle out, respond to about a million redundant letters a week and still often sit in a public room inviting anybody who wants to to come and RP with you. You've nailed the balance between IC leadership and OOC accessibility.

If a regular GL position can feel like a very thankless job, I can't even imagine what the Regency is like. I don't think you hear this enough: Thank you for everything you do to further the fun of others at the expense of your own time and sanity.

As others have suggested, one of the best ways we can all help maintain a healthy community is by keeping OOC conversations constructive and encouraging our fellow players to do the same. Across all channels. All the time. Habitual unproductive bitching is a great way to mire the community in negativity and bad juju, and people can fall into this feedback loop (as Pixie described) without even realizing it.

A thousand times this.

[Gavin]

The "PC regent" argument doesn't hold much water, for reasons we both know: it's "close enough."

I'm afraid that I don't understand this at all? I've only ever had two times where staff handed down a decision to me on something and that was on the subject of lockpicking because they wanted to reinforce theme there and the changing of 'house knights' to Chevalier to help eliminate confusion with the knight guild. So I don't understand what this means.

Totally confused you with another character. This goes to show how in sync I am with the game these days. My apologies.

[Gavin]

I have very little interest in OOCly interacting with the entire pbase on a regular basis, largely because I'm an antisocial, elitist, curmudgeonly sort of hermit, but I do see the need for a healthy community, even if I don't make myself a part of the usual banter.

As others have suggested, one of the best ways we can all help maintain a healthy community is by keeping OOC conversations constructive and encouraging our fellow players to do the same. Across all channels. All the time. Habitual unproductive bitching is a great way to mire the community in negativity and bad juju, and people can fall into this feedback loop (as Pixie described) without even realizing it.

I agree with this bit entirely. Frankly, that's what I was attempting to start here: I've hopefully demonstrated that I'm an "honest broker" who RPs so rarely that I'm not personally invested in any particular characters, people, or outcome. I'd like to reply more to your note later, but, RL calls.

But, I wanted to add this: this thread wasn't just about my comments. Does anyone else have them? I just wanted to kick off the dialogue and, in some cases, play Devil's Advocate -- not dominate the conversation entirely. I want to reiterate that I don't actually have a beef with anyone, mostly because I'm not at the grill, so to speak, often enough to care.

[Kinaed]

So... what is this "PC regent" thing that doesn't hold water, and what are the reasons, and close enough to what?

It looks like quite a few people focused on that comment, and I have to admit - it went over my head as to what that was about...

As for the other bits, I'm still interested in what players think staff ought to be doing beyond what we currently are to address the aforementioned issues?

[Gavin]

So... what is this "PC regent" thing that doesn't hold water, and what are the reasons, and close enough to what?

It looks like quite a few people focused on that comment, and I have to admit - it went over my head as to what that was about...

As for the other bits, I'm still interested in what players think staff ought to be doing beyond what we currently are to address the aforementioned issues?

I confused Margaux with Tomas, basically. The error's mine, but it's too late to go back and edit things.

[Kinaed]

I see... well, Margaux is a player too, not a staff member. Whatever's going around about her is probably also untrue.