A staff member suggested to me today that perhaps rumors ought not to be anonymous because the rumor mill is so vicious. Another player posted a note asking not to be crucified for stepping down from their GL role.
Personally, I'm not sure how many of us have problems with the rumor mill, or if it's just a small handful that don't enjoy it when it's directed at them. So, when in doubt, let's turn to the pbase as a group.
Is the fact that the rumor mill can be vicious really a bad thing or is this just the by product of some people being too thin skinned to handle crap thrown their way? Does it do real harm, or does it provide a real, thematic context? What do you think about rumors being actually attributed to your character and investigatable? Would this mean that players would stop using the rumor system completely?
Please vote, and suggest any changes to the sytem below.
[Poll] Rumors
I have often found that rumors tend to skirt being thematic, often representing very modern interpretations of things, so they at times feel anachronistic. And to me the rumors have been steadily getting more vile. Not just those directed against me, but against most people.
I voted 'maybe'. In general I don't mind the viciousness of it at all- par for the course. However, I do agree with Tremere's point that a lot of the points of view aren't very in keeping with Lithmore's theme and culture- it can be quite jarring at times.
I don't believe that the rumor system being vicious is the problem.
If your char gets their head tore off in the rumor mill, guess what? At least you know where you stand in city where people will be pleasant to your face and stab you in the back the next second. To me, this is entire discussion is related directly to OOC feelings about an IC situation, and in my opinion, it was over before it really began as an issue of needing to separate IC and OOC better.
Now, if you want to talk about making the rumor system not so anonymous for realism's sake, then I suppose that is a reasonable point.
However. This is a game where we literally, and routinely, burn people at the stake. Graphic violence and sensitive subject matter are a daily occurrence. I find it quite strange that people take this as a matter of course, but they can't handle the rumor system.
Just so it's known, I played both Shasa and Siva; I'm intimately aware of how horrific the rumor mill can be, but it's part of the game. It's IC. I don't take it personally.
If your char gets their head tore off in the rumor mill, guess what? At least you know where you stand in city where people will be pleasant to your face and stab you in the back the next second. To me, this is entire discussion is related directly to OOC feelings about an IC situation, and in my opinion, it was over before it really began as an issue of needing to separate IC and OOC better.
Now, if you want to talk about making the rumor system not so anonymous for realism's sake, then I suppose that is a reasonable point.
However. This is a game where we literally, and routinely, burn people at the stake. Graphic violence and sensitive subject matter are a daily occurrence. I find it quite strange that people take this as a matter of course, but they can't handle the rumor system.
Just so it's known, I played both Shasa and Siva; I'm intimately aware of how horrific the rumor mill can be, but it's part of the game. It's IC. I don't take it personally.
If a person reports a rumor for theme and culture, I review it, check the circle it's moving around in, and decide if, in that rumor circle, that concept would happen.
Criticizing the nobility absolutely might happen in freeman circles, but is unlikely to happen in Court, for example. So, for that, I'd suggest that people take the circle the rumor is circulating into consideration.
For my part, I've never really been terribly criticized in rumors (I have been criticized, but nothing that actually got under my skin that I can recall). But I have seen *multiple* players, including players that I like and genuinely respect, get extremely miffed about rumors that touch them - even things that I've felt were relatively benign. At this stage, I begin to think I'm a genuine aberration in terms of psychology, so I can't trust myself to judge if the rumor mill is okay or not.
That said, rumors, even IRL, can be vicious. And if this is just mimicing real life - actually, I think the thing about irl is that people almost can never see rumors about themselves. When people talk behind other people's back, they always downplay rumors or coach them in more polite terms when talking to the subject of the rumor face-to-face. Maybe rumors just ought not to be visible to the people who are being talked about?
Criticizing the nobility absolutely might happen in freeman circles, but is unlikely to happen in Court, for example. So, for that, I'd suggest that people take the circle the rumor is circulating into consideration.
For my part, I've never really been terribly criticized in rumors (I have been criticized, but nothing that actually got under my skin that I can recall). But I have seen *multiple* players, including players that I like and genuinely respect, get extremely miffed about rumors that touch them - even things that I've felt were relatively benign. At this stage, I begin to think I'm a genuine aberration in terms of psychology, so I can't trust myself to judge if the rumor mill is okay or not.
That said, rumors, even IRL, can be vicious. And if this is just mimicing real life - actually, I think the thing about irl is that people almost can never see rumors about themselves. When people talk behind other people's back, they always downplay rumors or coach them in more polite terms when talking to the subject of the rumor face-to-face. Maybe rumors just ought not to be visible to the people who are being talked about?
I'm in the "harsh rumors usually feel OOC/OOCly motivated" camp.
I definitely agree - and have likely complained - that rumors and/or rumor responses seem unnecessarily nasty sometimes. I won't pretend I'm not a sensitive person generally, but what truly bothers me about the nastiness of rumors is that they feel out of place. They break the fourth wall.
Rumors get as mean as they do because there's no fear of reprisal - but that freedom doesn't encourage RP, it stymies it. That isn't to say that it's problematic to counter or quash a rumor! More that the negative responses I recall stand out for ruining the flow of a rumor, to me.
The best way I can explain it is that it's like breaking the improv rule and saying "no" in a scene instead of "yes" to keep the scene rolling. Or approaching it from another angle: If someone says my character smells like butt in a rumor, there's not much I can do about it. I don't participate in flame wars IRL, I don't care to do so in rumor responses - I don't think the system is or should be built for that.
I definitely agree - and have likely complained - that rumors and/or rumor responses seem unnecessarily nasty sometimes. I won't pretend I'm not a sensitive person generally, but what truly bothers me about the nastiness of rumors is that they feel out of place. They break the fourth wall.
Rumors get as mean as they do because there's no fear of reprisal - but that freedom doesn't encourage RP, it stymies it. That isn't to say that it's problematic to counter or quash a rumor! More that the negative responses I recall stand out for ruining the flow of a rumor, to me.
The best way I can explain it is that it's like breaking the improv rule and saying "no" in a scene instead of "yes" to keep the scene rolling. Or approaching it from another angle: If someone says my character smells like butt in a rumor, there's not much I can do about it. I don't participate in flame wars IRL, I don't care to do so in rumor responses - I don't think the system is or should be built for that.
Last edited by Inertia on Sun Apr 03, 2016 6:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Silrie
I'll try and politely put into words my own views on the topic using my own experiences. I think removing the anonymous nature of rumors is a good step. Here is why. Rumors are vicious, I get this. I get that they are supposed to be that way. But here is where I start to frown and wonder. When rumors are especially nasty, is that truly a vnpc's view on this person or your view as a player on something they recently did or a disagreement you recently had, etc? I think there are ways to be cruel in rumors without what seems to me like a real effort to dig in and find the most hurtful things or insulting things to say about a person.
I know it doesn't bother some people, but I don't know, I've read rumors that just have my eyes widening. For example, there was a recent rumor that called Almaz a whore when the initial rumor, I believe, was about her being knighted. Where the whore part came into it, I have no idea, and if that rumor was traveling in freeman or knight circles which it might have been, I can't recall, would she really be called a whore. That sort of thing makes me wonder if it's just thematic to believe Hillfolk are whores or if it was someone who took offense to her character oocly. Maybe it's just my difficulty in understanding theme completely sometimes, but it just seemed really unrelated to throw such an insult into a rumor like that.
We are, I believe, supposed to pretend that the actual pc's are just a small part of Lithmore. But if all the nasty, vile rumors come from vnpc's, then thematically, it honestly makes Lithmore seem like a vile, nasty, cruel place. I understand that it's not supposed to be the White City of Sunshine, but in a game where I find myself responding to what little rp hooks or tidbits vnpc's throw out behind the fingers of players, and all I see is cruelty, it makes me wonder if it's truly realistic to live in a city where everyone just seems to hate everyone else. Where does this stop being thematic and start crossing over into players knowing they can get away with spitting on a character they hate if they just stick it in a rumor and hide behind an anonymous vnpc?
I know it doesn't bother some people, but I don't know, I've read rumors that just have my eyes widening. For example, there was a recent rumor that called Almaz a whore when the initial rumor, I believe, was about her being knighted. Where the whore part came into it, I have no idea, and if that rumor was traveling in freeman or knight circles which it might have been, I can't recall, would she really be called a whore. That sort of thing makes me wonder if it's just thematic to believe Hillfolk are whores or if it was someone who took offense to her character oocly. Maybe it's just my difficulty in understanding theme completely sometimes, but it just seemed really unrelated to throw such an insult into a rumor like that.
We are, I believe, supposed to pretend that the actual pc's are just a small part of Lithmore. But if all the nasty, vile rumors come from vnpc's, then thematically, it honestly makes Lithmore seem like a vile, nasty, cruel place. I understand that it's not supposed to be the White City of Sunshine, but in a game where I find myself responding to what little rp hooks or tidbits vnpc's throw out behind the fingers of players, and all I see is cruelty, it makes me wonder if it's truly realistic to live in a city where everyone just seems to hate everyone else. Where does this stop being thematic and start crossing over into players knowing they can get away with spitting on a character they hate if they just stick it in a rumor and hide behind an anonymous vnpc?
I don't agree that rumors, nasty or not, are OOCly motivated or particularly nasty solely due to a lack of reprisal. I don't think most players posting rumors are actually trying to be dicks, but are usually spreading gossip that they view as reasonable for the theme to get out.
In general, I have never really seen a rumor that I think was OOCly motivated. They're all about IC topics (or they get taken down), and generally fit with the theme, and almost always fit the view of the person writing it or the source that it's written from. So, if it feels OOC, I think that's because people aren't used to being told something very bluntly.
In my mind, a large part of the issue is that what you write in a rumor isn't tailored to a specific audience. I used to work in government, and I can honestly say that rumors there are absolutely shockingly vicious, it's just that no one tells person X to their face exactly what was said to everyone else around. Rumor mongers would edit what they're saying if they're talking to person Y who is believed to be friendly with person X too, etc. So, real rumors are tailored to the tastes of the audience and moved around in a holistic manner. TI has one message going to a broad spectrum, and tends to be a brutal boiling down of the message to the bottom line rather than a conversation passed on between friends to friends of friends, etc.
Rumors, nasty or not, give people things to talk about and act as a particular method to spread IC_Events that wouldn't just be announced or known by virtue of their size. So, they do forward RP, they even if they don't *necessarily* forward the RP of the person being talked about. They absolutely can if the person has the interest to wade in and get involved in the rumor. Not a necessity, but I'm shocked that it's viewed as 'stymieing' RP. How exactly? If someone says my character smells like butt, it's not stopping me from anything, and turning down the hook on offer is my right, but it's still another hook.
For me, the point is more about how the pbase overall enjoys the system and if we need to do something for TI's environment. I'm just not seeing rumors as OOC or even their nastiness as being particularly unlikely (or even in much of a deviation from IRL, because man, I've heard real bullshit in my life and my experience is that rumors are almost always dirty, even IRL.)
In general, I have never really seen a rumor that I think was OOCly motivated. They're all about IC topics (or they get taken down), and generally fit with the theme, and almost always fit the view of the person writing it or the source that it's written from. So, if it feels OOC, I think that's because people aren't used to being told something very bluntly.
In my mind, a large part of the issue is that what you write in a rumor isn't tailored to a specific audience. I used to work in government, and I can honestly say that rumors there are absolutely shockingly vicious, it's just that no one tells person X to their face exactly what was said to everyone else around. Rumor mongers would edit what they're saying if they're talking to person Y who is believed to be friendly with person X too, etc. So, real rumors are tailored to the tastes of the audience and moved around in a holistic manner. TI has one message going to a broad spectrum, and tends to be a brutal boiling down of the message to the bottom line rather than a conversation passed on between friends to friends of friends, etc.
Rumors, nasty or not, give people things to talk about and act as a particular method to spread IC_Events that wouldn't just be announced or known by virtue of their size. So, they do forward RP, they even if they don't *necessarily* forward the RP of the person being talked about. They absolutely can if the person has the interest to wade in and get involved in the rumor. Not a necessity, but I'm shocked that it's viewed as 'stymieing' RP. How exactly? If someone says my character smells like butt, it's not stopping me from anything, and turning down the hook on offer is my right, but it's still another hook.
For me, the point is more about how the pbase overall enjoys the system and if we need to do something for TI's environment. I'm just not seeing rumors as OOC or even their nastiness as being particularly unlikely (or even in much of a deviation from IRL, because man, I've heard real bullshit in my life and my experience is that rumors are almost always dirty, even IRL.)
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BattleJenkins
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I think I have a lot to say on this topic, but I'll try to keep it brief for now!
I don't think the biggest problem with rumors is that they're frequently negative, but that people seem to go out of their way to be as mean-spirited and vile as possible. There's lots of ways to smack talk someone in rumors in a way that's fun and inclusive, but a lot of the time rumors seem to read like they're trying to ruin someone's day OOCly. I understand that this may not be intentional, but I think that unintentional feelings-hurting deserves just as much attention as intentional feelings-hurting.
I also think, that while rumors are supposed to be negative, people push negativity way past player enjoyment and even past theme, as a few others have said. We have rumors where people loudly question the judgment of the church, which is about the least themely thing one can do! I've never made it a secret that player enjoyment should take precedence over theme, but the rumors seem to disregard theme AND player enjoyment in favor of just being as nasty as possible.
I do think that one of the ways this can be helped is by trying to generally lighten the mood to something that less resembles pointed personal attacks and more resembles light-hearted ribbing, and perhaps by trying to be a bit less personal wherever possible - more "But aren't hillwomen of loose morals and character?" and less "Almaz is a whore."
I don't think the biggest problem with rumors is that they're frequently negative, but that people seem to go out of their way to be as mean-spirited and vile as possible. There's lots of ways to smack talk someone in rumors in a way that's fun and inclusive, but a lot of the time rumors seem to read like they're trying to ruin someone's day OOCly. I understand that this may not be intentional, but I think that unintentional feelings-hurting deserves just as much attention as intentional feelings-hurting.
I also think, that while rumors are supposed to be negative, people push negativity way past player enjoyment and even past theme, as a few others have said. We have rumors where people loudly question the judgment of the church, which is about the least themely thing one can do! I've never made it a secret that player enjoyment should take precedence over theme, but the rumors seem to disregard theme AND player enjoyment in favor of just being as nasty as possible.
I do think that one of the ways this can be helped is by trying to generally lighten the mood to something that less resembles pointed personal attacks and more resembles light-hearted ribbing, and perhaps by trying to be a bit less personal wherever possible - more "But aren't hillwomen of loose morals and character?" and less "Almaz is a whore."
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Voxumo
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I don't think the rumor system is too mean... I mean hell yeah it's mean, but that's the nature of rumors. Ever seen the movie gossip? That's a good example of just how mean rumors can be. What the issue is is people being unable to handle it, or adding in a particularly cruel rumor to a rumor that for the most part was going fine.
For example, a rumor talking about the opening of a store, or a wedding... responses to it being positive or just mean enough to show someone isn't happy about it... But then out of the blue you get one person who creates a particularly vile response and it tends to kill the vibe of the rumor.
Regarding the anonymity of it... I think if Anonymity is removed from rumors, then rumors will either cease to exist because no one's gonna bother with them if it can be traced back to them, or rumors are just going to become meaningless, joy filled things meant only to pat each other on the back. aka sickening.
I also feel that the anonymity of rumors is the best way to let people icly blow off steam. I've had plenty of times where I've ran into characters that just twist my character the wrong way, but either due to their role in the game or some other such thing, they can't really just be outright with them. In this sense I view the rumor mill as the 'vnpc' friends an actual character would, that they may in fact gossip with. In a community this small, you can reliably tell character b how you feel about character c, with character b talking to character D about it, who in turn relays it back to Character C.... the playerbase is too small to support a better rumor mill where anonymity exists, because it is too quick to trace things back. I mean heck, TI's population of actual characters is smaller than your average american High School, and those places are vicious when it comes to rumors.
For example, a rumor talking about the opening of a store, or a wedding... responses to it being positive or just mean enough to show someone isn't happy about it... But then out of the blue you get one person who creates a particularly vile response and it tends to kill the vibe of the rumor.
Regarding the anonymity of it... I think if Anonymity is removed from rumors, then rumors will either cease to exist because no one's gonna bother with them if it can be traced back to them, or rumors are just going to become meaningless, joy filled things meant only to pat each other on the back. aka sickening.
I also feel that the anonymity of rumors is the best way to let people icly blow off steam. I've had plenty of times where I've ran into characters that just twist my character the wrong way, but either due to their role in the game or some other such thing, they can't really just be outright with them. In this sense I view the rumor mill as the 'vnpc' friends an actual character would, that they may in fact gossip with. In a community this small, you can reliably tell character b how you feel about character c, with character b talking to character D about it, who in turn relays it back to Character C.... the playerbase is too small to support a better rumor mill where anonymity exists, because it is too quick to trace things back. I mean heck, TI's population of actual characters is smaller than your average american High School, and those places are vicious when it comes to rumors.
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