[Poll] Rumors

[Leech]

I'm working on it and trying to convince myself to at least embrace the fact that so many of TI's players can't be wrong if they feel a certain way, but please be patient, it sometimes takes awhile for these things to settle in and the mental lightbulb to switch on.

I don't think there's a wrong or right, just preferences, and in the end it comes down to what kind of game you want to have rather than catering to whatever majority you find yourself with that day. There have been a lot of brilliant compromises and insight shared as to how the system might be changed for the better -- and not all of those reduce the grittiness aspect.

Edit: For clarification, I'm stoutly in the camp that a rumors list of any type should be facilitated and picked through by somebody who knows the theme, and used in a different way than ours is used. In general though, I'm just a hater of gossip and like something more substantial with my rumors. Like: "Have you heard Vavard is going to rebel next year?" And then that's it. No way to respond directly to the board. You want to respond, do it via other players.

Also, rumors should cost more all across the board. Maybe not money-wise. Idk.

[Pixie]

if you want a rumor to be at the detriment of another player but not be ICly spread by your character; that way, other people can understand it isn't the actual opinion of a PC and, if they want to look into it further, understand it's not a specific person they can RPA against.

Much belated note on this, as there has been a fair measure of dissatisfied playerside talk about the rumor system as of late, I was recently told you cannot use RPA to uncover any source of a comment or rumor, and as you cannot possibly identify the names attached without RPA and Staff, this means it simply won't ever happen. There is apparently a blanket rule in place to disallow any successful RPA that would identify the source of a rumor or response. Spend your QP, IP and gold all you like to get RPA, but you aren't getting the person behind it, period.

This leads to some newer thoughts: What's the point of the rumor system is if there's no conflict (or RP at all, really; oh hey I'm depressed yet again this week because random faceless nameless' have decided I'm a whore/asshole/mutant/savage again gets super, super boring after several months, typically leading to just ignoring the system altogether) that can actually come of it beyond occasionally reading a bitchy comment? We already get IC news in board posts, so it's definitely not that. A blanket rule that disallows you to -ever- glean the source of a rumor or response is more like having a detached, blacked out, barely-IC Facebook system than a roleplay mechanic. If we're not allowing the creation of any actual conflict between source and target, what's the purpose? It's certainly not making the world any grittier to globally disallow coming down with a bloody vengeance against somebody else, particularly when we're talking about the nastiest system in-game. Kind of does the opposite -- softens it down to where the system hits a brick wall and no tangible conflict could possibly come of it.

Can we discuss changing the blanket rule to allow for identifying rumor and comment sources with RPA? If it's going to be nasty and we want a gritty atmosphere, allowing conflict to actually arise (really arise; not just "oh a thought from the ether... I'll never ever be able to engage with anyone about it in any meaningful way so it's over now that I've read it. Back to ignoring the system!") from the rumor system?

[BattleJenkins]

I'd just like to come in here and second a lot of what Pixie put down here - a lot of the time, rumors just seem nasty in a way that isn't really productive and conducive to RP, and seems to be used more and more as a vector for consequence-free harassment more than anything. Rumors should be nasty, yes, but they should also be interesting and fun - and seeing people just dogpiling on any female PC even mentioned in rumors to call her a slut for no reason is neither fun nor interesting.

[Voxumo]

As I pointed out much earlier in this post, yes while staff may not assist in discovering who posted a rumor or a response, that doesn't stop you from discovering yourself, or pinning blame on someone. You can look at rumors and go "Hmm, who would be spiteful enough to say something like this, and spread it?" and from there it's deduction and possibly working with friends to discover. And if you are someone powerful enough, as those are typically the people who are the target of the rumors, you can easily blame it on someone even if it wasn't them, but you believe it to be them.

Real life rumors are often much like this rumor system. They are nasty, and you often can not find the direct source when it gets so large that several groups know about it. And we are talking about a city of probably 100,000+ people, rumors will spread and it won't be as easy pinning it to someone as it may be in a school setting. On top of this, look at rumor from your character perspective. Yes, you oocly know it has to be one of few fellow players because only players can post rumors, but your character doesn't have the luxury of narrowing it down like that, they have faceless joes that for all they know could be the source.

Yes the Rumor system can be cruel, but it's not that far off from real world rumor mills, which can be far nastier and ruin people's reputations and lives. When was the last time a rumor truly ruined someone's reputation on this game?

[BattleJenkins]

Real life is nasty, yes, but we aren't playing this game to vicariously live out the worst the world has to offer, we're here to have fun and tell stories.

[Voxumo]

Real life is nasty, yes, but we aren't playing this game to vicariously live out the worst the world has to offer, we're here to have fun and tell stories.

*Shrugs* I'm not going to rehash everything I've already said in this topic. I'm a firm believer that the rumor system fits in well with theme of the game, given the theme is meant to be dark, cruel and generally not an entirely pleasant one for your character. The Inquisition is not meant to be sunshine and rainbows, and anything that helps to get this across, I'm infavor of.

Do I agree with how nasty some of the rumors have gotten? No, but I believe if a rumor is too nasty that it goes beyond what's acceptable it should be removed, otherwise leave it as is.

Also to as Pixie stated that we have board posts to be made aware of news, I like to think the rumor system is more of a actual person's view on current events versus official statements from whatever guilds which don't necessarily reflect the people's opinion on current events.

[vaxin]

I believe the reason you cannot use RPA to uncover the source of a rumor is often they're not written from your character's perspective. I'll post a rumor if I use magic in town from the point of view of a regular townsfolk but if people could use RPA to determine that was me, I'd have to ask others to do it.

As for the rumor system itself, I personally find it a mildly interesting news system. I don't think I've ever commented on a rumor, mostly because I find it hard to be original in them. I also don't think I've ever seen rumor that shocked me in its viciousness.

[Romewhoa]

Real life is nasty, yes, but we aren't playing this game to vicariously live out the worst the world has to offer, we're here to have fun and tell stories.

I feel as though you have to take the good with the bad. I love the rumor system. I love that it's nasty. I love that it's another thematic medium other than news posts and fliers for advertising. I love that it can spark the rebirth of old conflicts that some may be too cowed to mention in RP. I love that it makes long gone characters relevant again.

Now whilst I acknowledge with utmost understanding that rumors have the potential to exist solely as caustic assaults upon individuals whom may not be held in the highest esteem of the gossip's player, it is imperative that we approach such incidents with an equivocal stance. I've run rumor mills that have been particularly vicious, and I've had rumors about my characters that have been equally merciful. It can grow difficult to find the line, as a player, between what is evidently an overzealous attack that may most definitely be the consequence of out-of-character grievances, and a mere product of a spiteful, racist, feudal society evinced by a player who embraces the setting and its unfortunate customs.

Sometimes I've got irritated when I read some rumors (ones that I view as too defensive, egregiously bitter, etc). Other times I join in on the bullying because I can bring it up in RP later. Either way, I've seen them utilized as tools in scenes, and I've seen them dismissed as what they are: rumors. I'm open to whatever innovations that can be exercised on the system, but I don't view it as a problematic, unnecessary, or fundamentally flawed one either. It can be exploited and it can be killed, as it should.

But I'm also the Laudate, so I may be a bit biased.

[Limonade]

I've wondered for a while how to approach this, because while I agree that people should be able to play the game to get what they want from it; I also feel like the rumour mill has recently been 100% on point and I do not want to risk losing it even a little bit.

To start, perhaps I've played games before where people were particularly nasty, but I don't actually find our rumour mill to be anything near as vicious as I have seen it be elsewhere. Sure, 'whore' is always a bit unnecessary to throw in (and is often a clear sign that you have nothing else to say when it just barrels in unrelatedly), but very honestly, I find that our rumour mill fills in a vital place in the TI ecosystem, as far as players self-regulating goes.

I will begin by saying that I super abhor the 'I wish people would tell me to my face' model of whining about rumours; evidently they have no reason to, and whether it's due to cowardice or mistrust in your reaction doesn't actually matter, they won't and they shouldn't have to be made to. (Also, our openly belligerent characters routinely leave the game from exhaustion, so... how exactly are you making this worth their while? They are the only people with anything to lose in this equation.)

The very simple fact is, fellow players, that we all must and should live with the consequences of our actions. Did an unmarried gentleman wander out of your home at night? Are you way too chummy with the scum? Do you wander away to the peacock and then dance on the table in flimsy attire? Congratulations; you deserve to be in the rumour mill. The fact is if you are actively going against the norm/established theme you WILL be called out on it; and your station cannot (and should not) protect you. And if you are knowingly going against an established thematic norm, I have absolutely no idea why you think you deserve to be absolved from the consequences. No one is saying that you -can't- do any of the above. The idea, however, is that nothing should be consequence free; if you do something that is un-Davite, you will be reviewed; if you piss off someone petty, you will enter the rumour mill; if you embarrass someone who has a very large collection of poisonous plants; you will die.

This is exactly the reason why concepts like courtesy and face matter. The fact is, people have to -think- you do right by society's rules and nothing more. The benefits of being highly placed enough/holding influential enough friends is that you get to flout these things and probably suffer far fewer consequences than those who are not as well connected or highly placed as you are. The rumour-mill, in this way, is the trod-upon's vengeance. You don't have to be happy about anything that's happening; and rumours are what happens when someone heads to the pub and whines just loudly enough for the next table over to hear about it.

ETA: I also agree that rumour comments being untraceable is how things should stay. (Mind you, apart for things that are unrelated to other characters, I 100% source the rumours I start to myself or to close-enough-to-my-character-to-be-found-out.) It makes absolutely no sense that they should be traceable. Unless you have the most insane luck in the world, finding out who in a city of 100K+ said one thing once probably weeks ago makes a sum total of zero sense. And if you are going to spend coin scouring the city to find out who said they didn't like your face once, when you could be laughing yourself to the bank; you should probably enter the rumour mill for having more money than sense.

ETA2: I'm actually going to continue, because I feel strongly enough about this to be annoyed now. There are COUNTLESS ways of dealing with nasty rumours about yourself. You can pay off the Troubadours to demote them into oblivion, you can double down and distract the rumour mill with something worse, you can go to the Lord Regent/High Steward and demand that fines be imposed on the freefolk for insulting you. Hell, they will probably gladly turn on each other to prevent that/gain vengeance upon something else. There exists a huge number of ways of doubling down and making this worth everyone's while and it just makes me super sad that we don't focus on -that- instead. Shit, make the person who started the rumour turn yellow with rage when you seamlessly find your way out of things, come out smelling like roses, and then have someone unrelated flogged for it.

[Pixie]

It's a pretty vast exaggeration to figure anyone researching a rumor's source would be sorting through 100k people. For a General circle rumor? Sure, I suppose no one would be capable of asking "Hey, who did you hear that from?" (Or dragging in the foolish person who just said it in front of you -- gotta love that rumor code KNOWING YOU'RE THERE and reporting the rumors with relevant topics -- and beating them bodily until they tell you who they heard it from, rinse and repeat) and tracing it back until the track ends because "General" would indeed be a pretty darn big number of people. You'd get to the point that "I donno, some sod I didn't know, but he looked like X!" would be the answer, and "X" could probably describe several dozen people. Definite dead end. General rumors set aside...

Often, we're looking at rumors running in and being propagated by guild circles and social circles. Mika put up a post explaining how circles work here: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1248

I have a hard time believing that in your own social circle or guild, with enough pressure/threats/money/IP/beatings/whatever other method you're going to be flatly incapable of discovering a rumor source no matter what. Should it always be challenging? Sure. But impossible? Nah. That's silly. Again, puts a stop to what would be an excellent source of conflict RP (RP being the key word here; not sitting alone writing rumor responses or throwing limp retaliations into the air) and makes the system a blackbox.

Limonade actually hit the nail on the head here:

The very simple fact is, fellow players, that we all must and should live with the consequences of our actions.

As of right now, the rumor system is the only one I know of where we have an expectation of our actions having zero consequences. To add on to his/her thoughts, if you do something magey congrats, yep, you're going to be Reviewed. If you spread a terrible rumor about the Regent, congrats, if you're spreading it throughout his social circle and he's determined enough, he's going to find out who you are and flog you for it.

All else being said, I relate to taking ones in-game pleasure out of sitting alone writing rumors and wanting to protect one's right to do so sans pushback. I take a GOOD PORTION of my in-game pleasure out of sitting alone writing object descriptions and would probably be equally irked if there were IC repercussions for it. The thing is, though, one could be an amazing source of tangible conflict, and one couldn't. ... I mean, I guess it could, but it would be so amazing I'd probably want to give the person behind it a gold star for figuring out how.

On "rumors aren't from me! I'm being an NPC!": As you're not allowed to lie in rumors without a cnote, the argument that they're not supposed to be from your character is strained. One or the other is troublesome, logic-wise. Either they're from us and we need to cnote why we're lying, or they're not from us and what are we writing a character note about?