Theme - Knights Arrest Mages

[Rothgar]

Imho the problem was addressed above. And the solution, really. You (generally) run away from what (you're supposed to) fear. It makes sense, I do agree with it, and yes, before I launch into my little rant, I think that Knights should be encouraged to be the ones to arrest mages.

That being said, no matter how you address it, it'll never happen that way.

First problem : exposure. Someone said it above - there are a sizable number of commoners on that have fought more mages then Knights ever had. We addressed it in a previous thread some months back, but statistically speaking? Lithmore is/was roughly 30% mages, or people associated with mages. There are a *crap ton* of people playing mages, and even more people being exposed to them. Sure, you fear what you don't know, but after your first, second, third, fourth mage attack? You'd probably say to yourself, "Shit, this happens all the time, I'd better prepare myself."

Second problem : combat prowess. Not saying this is a bad thing by any stretch of the imagination, but I personally know 4 characters that are 70+ level in their prospective weapon class. IC'ly, this means that they're masters of the craft, capable of amazing feats that represents a lifetime of training. If I had 70+ dagger, you can be damned sure I'd bring it to bear against a mage if I caught up with one. Even if you'd never met one, why not? At 70, 75, 80 ranks in dagger, youre in the IC top 1% of combatants. Most people on Urth wouldnt be able to touch you, and this mage probably looks squishy as Arien. And, I mean, lets be honest - the odds are in your favor, from an OOC standpoint, unless they're a real powerful mage.

Third problem (kinda) : IC bravado. The majority of people I've met have either put claim to miltiary service in IC helpfiles, referenced it in RP, or have basically set themselves up to be grizzled, no-bullshit mercenary types that are hardcore as a mofo. I've known some people to argue (And I disagree with it, but thats not the point) that their character wouldn't run from a bit of hand-lightning or fire-eyes or whatever it is you kids do nowadays. And... Lets be honest, we've given the mechanics to allow those characters to play like that - should we be made to limit them? We kind of made our bed, I'm just saying that sometimes you gotta lie in it.

So all that being said, I know that I personally agree that only Knights should be allowed to arrest mages. Lord knows I played as one, and it was pretty miserable because everyone else was doing my job and then laughing at me by the time I got there (that full plate takes time to don, bro!) BUT. If we look at both sides of that RP, I'd say its an unwelcome, but expected bit of character progression. Shit happens, and it sucks. That being said, it's (probably) not going to stop anytime soon, and we're just going to have to deal with it, really.

Hatemail below! Woooooo

[Voxumo]

I completely agree with what you've said Rothgar, and while I agree that it is the bed we made for ourselves, I think the main purpose of this thread was just to raise awareness, try to put that little thought in people's head of "Do I have to fight this mage?" I mean we can't force people to do anything that has been stated here, unless IC matters are done to prevent it but those are overturned or outright shut down.

It really is a fickle situation, but if at least one person who would normally take on a mage things twice about it, well that's a win in my book.

[Gerolf]

Why would Joe Schmo know so much about magic and demons if he isn't apart of the order, unless he is a mage himself? I mean be they freeman or Noble that should be grounds for suspicion.

Because you taught me yourself?

What?

Shoot me a tell in game and I'll refresh your memory.

[Kinaed]

The purpose of this thread was for staff to be explicitly clear about our policies as well as when and how we'll step in to help - or not.

As to Rothgar's points - they may all be true, but none of them actually mean that players ought to be trying to arrest mages if they're not a knight. I think the real reasons that it's currently happening are:

• People can't seem to get their heads out of the binary "arrest the mage" or "run away" options when it comes to dealing with mages. A grizzled merc doesn't need to run away, but he also doesn't need to see the mage escorted to an Ahalin jail cell either. That's not his job. His job is probably just to keep himself alive. For that character, that might mean combat. It might be being magnanimous and trying to protect others. It might mean fleeing. It might mean clever reparte followed by a report to the Order. Whatever. It does not mean access to Ahalin tower.
• The Order hasn't really put a lot of effort into raising the risk reward scenario so people actually think, "Hey, if I try to act the Knight here, the Order is potentially going to go after me for heresy", which staff view as a thematic and reasonable stance.
• The point above is solely because that's an OOCly unpopular stance for people who want in on the mage hunting fun when it comes up, which is a decent bulk of the pbase, so the Order worries about the difficulty of actually enforcing it.

Staff's stance from the "managing NPCs" point of view is that f you're not a Knight or Reeve, your character simply does not have access to the Ahalin Tower. The guards who work at Ahalin Tower are as interested in your claims that Joe Schmoe is a mage as your local bank is that you're your mother's power of attorney when you show up without the correct paperwork. They have strict protocols to prevent unauthorized access - afterall, your claim that Joe is a mage is a perfect ploy to try to slip someone in who might bust someone out.

The scenario that kicked this off and main excuse raised for people attempting to arrest mages when they're not the appropriate people to do so ICly is that things happen when the correct characters aren't around. Well, staff also can't always be around anymore than the knights can, so coming to us to help doesn't solve that problem. Also, we fundamentally support people playing their thematic roles, which players themselves have recently asked staff to step up in enforcing. So here we are explaining the theme and asking people to abide by it. Please do.

I clearly don't mind if everyone has an opinion and comments about our stance (hence this being open for people to respond with their thoughts, concerns and ideas), but at this time, I haven't seen anything in the discussions that suggests I seriously ought to change the policy on the matter thus far - sorry to those of you who disagree with the sentiment.

[BattleJenkins]

IDEA TIIIIME

I'm a firm believer that the best way to encourage themely behavior without moderating player behavior directly is to encourage it through game mechanics. So, I had an interesting thought: what if keeping your cool in the face of magic and demons is a learned skill? That is, a skill you could train?

Each round you're engaged in combat with a mage or demon and make an attack, it could check this skill to see if you lose your cool, which would prevent you from attacking - you freeze up, panic, or otherwise have some kind of character-appropriate brief freakout that comes from being raised in a society that fears magery and the corruption of the soul above all else. Of course, keeping your cool in the face of demons and magery could be a trained skill, making it happen less and less often and eventually not at all - but we could make it an Order guildskill, representing the rigorous mental and spiritual training required to stand up against the threat of being tainted and facing eternal torture and damnation.

I'd advise against calling this skill something generic like "Courage" or "Resolve" - the name of the skill would have to specifically invoke rigorous training to keep your head in the face of magic threats in particular, but I can't think of anything quite succinct enough. (Something like "Dogma" maybe...?)

[Noobus]

IDEA TIIIIME

I'm a firm believer that the best way to encourage themely behavior without moderating player behavior directly is to encourage it through game mechanics. So, I had an interesting thought: what if keeping your cool in the face of magic and demons is a learned skill? That is, a skill you could train?

Each round you're engaged in combat with a mage or demon and make an attack, it could check this skill to see if you lose your cool, which would prevent you from attacking - you freeze up, panic, or otherwise have some kind of character-appropriate brief freakout that comes from being raised in a society that fears magery and the corruption of the soul above all else. Of course, keeping your cool in the face of demons and magery could be a trained skill, making it happen less and less often and eventually not at all - but we could make it an Order guildskill, representing the rigorous mental and spiritual training required to stand up against the threat of being tainted and facing eternal torture and damnation.

I'd advise against calling this skill something generic like "Courage" or "Resolve" - the name of the skill would have to specifically invoke rigorous training to keep your head in the face of magic threats in particular, but I can't think of anything quite succinct enough. (Something like "Dogma" maybe...?)

I actually.... like this idea.

[Kinaed]

I sort of do too. I think a lot of people just assume their character is unflappable because that's what they want to play, but when everyone plays the same 'unthematic' way, the net effect on the game is an unthematic game environment. I ponder.

I admit it makes me sad to have to resort to things like that to get people to play thematically...

[BattleJenkins]

I admit it makes me sad to have to resort to things like that to get people to play thematically...

I don't think it's sad! To be honest, every coded system in the game could be seen as a "resort" in this case - we have a skill system in place not because we don't trust players to refrain from deciding that they're master swordfighters on a whim, but because investing resources in your character's strengths is a part of the nature of the game. Why shouldn't it be different for deciding your character is an unflappable mage hunter? Rather than just saying "no" or ineffectually pleading for people to keep to theme, it can be a lot better to just say "yes - if you're willing to work for it".

[Kinaed]

Well, whether we create a skill to be unflappable by magic only tangentially relates to whether we support non-reeves/non-knights in arresting mages. That skill coming in wouldn't change the fact that staff wouldn't do that or throw people in jail, etc.

I honestly don't really mind if we have people who are old buffs, though I do think it's not realistic for every PC we see to be that way. I'm not sure what % of the pbase just decides they're hard-as-nails-badasses-of-badassery, but it might not be huge enough to warrant a code skill when the main point I'm driving at is who physically has thematic authority to arrest, badasses or not.

That said, I think your idea of a skill for this has merit, so I'll be discussing it with staff. Thanks for the suggestion!

[BattleJenkins]

This is sort of what I meant before when I answered the question of "how can we encourage more themely behavior?" with "make more game mechanics that tie into theme" - this way, the more themely behavior will arise completely naturally, rather than having to be enforced. If keeping your head when fighting mages and demons is an Order guildskill, just the mechanic itself will encourage the themely behavior without any staff intervention at all - knights and inquisitors become the most effective mage hunters, people are discouraged from engaging with and arresting mages if they aren't Orderites, and non-Order characters can still learn how to hunt mages and demons, but not without raising the suspicion of the Order, in the same way that the Merchants might raise an eyebrow at someone who isn't in the guild mastering a craft.

Take, for example, Sword being a guildskill of Court and the Knights - this is a perfect example of mechanics encouraging theme. I guarantee you that if it wasn't ever a guildskill, we would see a lot more commoners running around with swords, and only a minority of players would call them out on it. The existence of the restriction on the skill has a tangible, palpable effect on how they perceive the world of the game and how they behave.

Thank you very much for your consideration!