Theme - Knights Arrest Mages

[Dice]

Big shoutout to the central point here: code can absolutely help theme along, and where it can it should. I feel this philosophy of game design could reap incredible dividends for TI if we applied it more often!

Specifically, I like this general idea, but I don't think I like this implementation. Ultimately, it feels too punitive and too illogical. While I am in agreement that there are a lot of people who just decide their PC should be unafraid because they've faced demons five times or whatever, I also think there really are backstories that make it make sense. I might be okay with it for higher-rank demons, but I cannot possibly see an explanation for why a grizzled veteran of the Edessan Campaign who is fighting a puny mage who cast one spell and then got beat to death should have to make a fear check every round, you know? Moreover, I see this implementation as making it really, really difficult to ever succeed at doing anything, and cutting out non-Knight PCs who Knights have welcomed into the RP (which I think we should be okay with as a part of spreading the love).

I think I would prefer something like giving Knights a flat bonus on checks vs. demons to succumb to their mind controls, auras, etc., whatever. That way, it isn't absolutely going to screw you over if you don't have the bonus, but it really does make Knights more effective. Something like how piety used to work, but less nebulous and less dependent on spamming the 'pray' command - more dependent on actual time/training put in to reach a rank in a guild.

If we ever went so far as to implement fear checks, I'd say we should also get to building an advantage system, so people can buy an advantage of 'Stoic' if they want better results on their fear check, and if they don't pay for it they don't have it.

[Tremere]

I like Dice's idea. Give knights a specific bonus vs the mind controls/what not. Have it be a bit higher based upon rank. The idea of the skill seems at first like it could help with the before situation, but it makes things even more 'gamey' and I don't think I would like it in practice.

[BattleJenkins]

If you have a backstory that justifies it, then you'd be able to purchase the skill up to 36 in chargen, I'd imagine - and I think it'd work a lot like the other skills in that 36 will cover you in most situations. I imagine that 36 would be enough to stand up to mages and minor demons 100% of the time.

I also think that this skill would only ever be checked when you attack a mage or demon, and your attack would be spoiled less than a third of the time even if you had absolutely no ranks - and that attacking demons and mages or being attacked by them would pool the skill, so you naturally get more comfortable with fighting demons and mages the more experienced you get at it.

I personally think the 'new skill' idea would be the most elegant and effective, since it'd be a lot more visible than some changes to calculations 'behind the screen' and as such would have a much more profound effect on player behavior, which is what we're aiming for!

[Tremere]

I think that the skill would actively hurt people assisting the knights at their request and could end up discouraging people from that rp all together because it's an xp sink just to be able to do the job of fighting mages/demons on top of the need for multiple combat skills to be at all effective in combat. The Order/Knights have enough of an issue drawing people in that adding another hurdle to that will just make things more difficult.

I like Dice's idea because it isn't an xp sink and it actively will make the knights/order more attractive because there is a static bonus related to the ranks and it won't be a big disadvantage to not have, it, but will have a minor benefit. I really think that this skill idea, while seeming to be a way to solve the problem initially will only act to inhibit rp. And even with the 36 skill... that wouldn't necessarily be enough to have a big effect if we code in this default thing that people get screwed over seeing a spell cast. And it'll be extremely hard to actively raise it, because you'll have to keep jumping in aft er mages/demons left and right. This skill is to make people be more careful of mages? It'll make people go after them more, just so that they can raise the skill if they don't just outright ignore it. It'll also hurt the knights in doing their job until they can get their skills up.

[BattleJenkins]

As a skill, it could be taught, which I imagine would be a pretty regular part of Knight training and a good RP hook.

[Tremere]

And initially no one would have it higher than 36. People would need to be throwing themselves in and fighting them all the time in combat for this coded skill to raise. There would be no good way to get it to where you could reliably train it to people anytime soon. Therefore during the period after which this goes in, you would have some seriously bad growing pains where what I mentioned above will be happening. As for it being a good rp hook. Unlike most any other skill, I can't think of a good way to teach someone this skill other than discussing what they will be facing against a mage. And for those who have done extensive teaching... that teaching rp can get very old very quick. It's why you see mages complain about it a lot.

[Pixie]

I feel like BattleJenkins' thought is a great idea on paper, but in practice would have some unwanted effects. The big one is that it may overpower mages to a somewhat alarming degree. I'm on the fence as to whether or not this sort of power would be a boon to theme -- I mean, if there's no Knights around, you could pretty much just walk up and down the street shooting people in the face with lightning bolts and it's super unlikely anyone could stop you because the code prevents most people from being able. That... does feel thematic to me, that people would be so afraid for their lives they'd end up just running in every direction, but balance-wise, super bad juju.

Dice's thoughts are more in line with something I would be super, duper on board with. Not a coded prevention that excludes the "wrong" people from participating in these situations, but a coded incentive that provides a boon to the "right" people.

[Voxumo]

I'll be blunt, I rather dislike this idea. Not so much the idea itself, which I think is planned out well, and could be implemented well, i just dislike the notion behind it. Why should code have to support what people SHOULD be able to do by themselves? I mean I know reasons were provided above such as it's easier this way instead of having to manage people's rp to make sure it's themely, but that just seems like a cop out to me. If people can take the time to purchase the skill in Chargen, they can take time when in rp to think 'How would my character react' on top of that it would just become like papercraft or haggle. Everyone purchases it at chargen out of sheer habit.

And what about mages who end up fighting other mages? Would they both need a skill check just to fight each other despite them being both being mages?

I mean if you create code to support every little aspect of RP, at what point is code replacing RP?

[BattleJenkins]

Even if a new skill is not the best way to go, I do think that addressing this theme concern via game mechanics would be best solution - simply asking people to keep to theme isn't effective enough, and we don't want staff to have direct intervention in people's RP, so that leaves addressing the problem in the game rules as the most viable solution. So, let's break down the problem a bit:

• Only knights should be arresting mages, according to the theme.
• Non-knights are frequently fighting mages and demons without Order oversight.
• Characters in the game should, according to theme, fear magic, and the courage to face it should be exceptional - but isn't in practice
• The Order should be regarding non-Knight mage hunters with suspicion at best and regard them as heretics at worst

Of course, we could simply ask players to keep all these in mind, but the theme is already enormous and complicated to the point of borderline inaccessibility, and there's no repercussions for unthemely behavior - not to mention that it would foster a pretty negative RP environment if people constantly feel like they're being judged or reprimanded for playing 'incorrectly'. So, putting in place some kind of game mechanic that encourages the desired behavior is really the only way to effectively solve this problem without encroaching on players' freedom to RP whatever concept they want.

I don't think that giving bonuses to knights fighting mages would be enough - the problem isn't that knights need more encouragement to fight mages, after all, the problem is that non-knights are too overzealous in hunting down mages where the theme dictates that the vast majority of the populace, even those who are otherwise brave, should be superstitious and fearful enough of magic that they wouldn't hunt mages on their own. If theme dictates that the mental and spiritual fortitude to face down mages and demons without fear should be mostly unique to the Order, then there should be some kind of game mechanic in place to make this idea more clear and present to the players.

If not a skill, maybe there could be some other mechanic that prevents or discourages non-Orderites from engaging mages in battle with abandon. I'm still partial to it being represented as a skill, since I believe it elegantly addresses multiple issues of theme that we're having here, but I could also see it being a trait unique to knights (and extended to people in their group) or made available to purchase for non-knight character at a cost. We already restrict players' RP by code quite liberally - things like social class, skills, and even appearance are codified by in-game systems, and I think it's terribly reactionary to say that any new game mechanic that factors into RP is unduly restrictive.

[Tremere]

As a non knight who fights mages, the only times I've ever been doing that is at the Order discretion. The Order does tend to draw upon non knights to assist fairly often in game because there aren't enough Orderites to cover. I don't think there is actually -that- many cases of non knights actively hunting down mages. I know it's happened, but I think that most of the time it's done while working with the order/knights and that should be perfectly allowed, due to the realities of the game and number of knights. Those who are going outside of the Order/knights who don't ask for their help who go out hunting mages most certainly should face ic consequences for their ic actions. This skill method unduely punishes everyone, including the knights until they get their skill up. And even then they will be burdened with yet another big xp sink that they have to have in order to be effective. And it doesn't address the problems of people with extensive histories fighting mages in the Edessan Campaign, other mages facing each other. This skill idea feels like a sledge hammer approach that completely misses the nuances that can happen in rp.