[Poll] Give Us Grit

[Kinaed]

Dear Players,

Do you think TI is gritty enough? Why or why not? Do you want to see more 'gritty' and dark things in play?

From some other threads in the forum, we have some ideas suggested (but NOT necessarily approved):
- GLs get a quiz on the theme.
- Write a How to GL handbook or something to indoctrinate GLs into the theme and improve IC leadership.
- Create more non-death avenues for players to affect one another in negative ways (suggestions please!)
- Update some of the city and mob descriptions & behaviors to be a bit grittier
- Create some gritty, realistic rumors as a backdrop
- Give more of a thematic difference between different social classes (someone suggesed that gentry should be application-only)
- Remove purchasing silver so resources become more scarce
- Remove the laws of Charity and Caring
- Remove the theme of universal education
- Remove some of the rights of freemen, or better define them as lower "beings" than gentry/nobility
- Introduce slavery in Lithmore

Do you have any more suggestions for us to consider beyond the above?

Warm regards,
Kinaed

[Taunya]

I think the theme itself is gritty enough as-is.
More gritty plots and player actions would be welcome of course.

[SilverMoon]

yeah, I'm in agreement with Taunia here. I think the theme and the way the game is gritty enough. I mean I understand the need to generate conflict, that's what most muds seem to be about these days, but the reason I love TI, is because it is pretty well-rounded, and I would hate for that to change too much.

[Dice]

I am definitely in favor of most of the ideas suggested, but especially class differentiation and removal of universal education. Universal education subtly distorts a number of things about TI's world to make it implausible. Stringent class structures depend on ignorance of the lower class. I would keep the laws of Charity and Caring, but perhaps reword them slightly - make it so nobles abusing freemen is seen as fine if said nobles can even pretend it is 'chastizing them for their own good'. But I think the laws add too much to encourage cross-class RP.

(I think a lot of this could be easily and ICly done, rather than by retconning and hand-waving, by making Caitrin something of a despot who strongly believes in class structure as the only bulwark against anarchy, and worries that the freemen are Getting Ideas, etc. Some other things might have to be retconned some, but mostly it could be a smooth transition.)

I would also like to suggest the addition of some lasting danger directly adjacent to Lithmore. Why? Relying on staff and player plots to solely drive RP creates long periods of downtime interspersed with too hectic periods of insanity. PvE conflict is completely underrepresented in TI's world and provides, if done well, a kind of ground for players to engage in conflict to the point of their own appetite. I don't necessarily even mean a combat danger, too. A blighted wasteland on the periphery of the city could also be pretty fascinating. Just something that 1) introduces a relatively lasting PvE element, and 2) is avoidable for those players who are not interested in PvE conflicts but prefer politics, etc.

[Silrie]

I initially voted yes, this game is gritty enough, but then I looked at Kinaed's list and altered my vote. I think a lot of those things could add some really fascinating rp, and this comes from the player of a character who would be greatly affected, being th lowest person socially in Lithmore; if freemen are seen as even lower than they are, savages will be little more than talking monkeys indeed, and probably enslaved and abused.

But that sounds as though it could be interesting, if not abused itself. I think that with grittier aspects, especially the people on people grit, there should be some definite emphasis placed upon allowing those being gritted on, so to speak, to use tools such as ftb and graphic. I.E. If a noble is permitted to beat a Charali for breathing too loudly or if a slave master goes on a caning spree, while that could add some really interesting conflict, there may be times when the one dealing with it may not want to rp out the entirety of such things. So grittier in that aspect, aye, but also gently handled so people don't go on massive abusing sprees.

Now, that's just a teeny part of it, of course. I love that education may be removed as being universal. I rp it that my character did not learn to read until she was twelve, but it does not really even seem to matter; I have tried rping illiterate characters before, but so much information is passed in literary ways, it felt a bit like I was the minority.

Some more non-death avenues of rp would be great when it comes to player interaction, just as Dice's suggestion of PVE is something I like as well. It adds grit, but the grit can also focus on people working together rather than merely against one another. However, at the moment, it seems that if you hate someone or feel they must be punished for whatever, the only recourse is to kill them. It would be nice if there were other means of "making them pay." Some physical, others... well, others.

Though in that, I don't think it should be horrendously easy either. There definitely needs to be a balance, or someone who has worked hard to gain what they have or to get to where they are may just feel after losing it all that it's not worth sticking around to try building it up again. I'm loving all the realism, but I definitely think it will need to be carefully implemented so things, while dark, are not horrendously unbalanced. You guys are great with that.

As for removing purchase silver, assets anyone? I'm still all in favor of that.

[The_Last_Good_Dragon]

But that sounds as though it could be interesting, if not abused itself. I think that with grittier aspects, especially the people on people grit, there should be some definite emphasis placed upon allowing those being gritted on, so to speak, to use tools such as ftb and graphic. I.E. If a noble is permitted to beat a Charali for breathing too loudly or if a slave master goes on a caning spree, while that could add some really interesting conflict, there may be times when the one dealing with it may not want to rp out the entirety of such things. So grittier in that aspect, aye, but also gently handled so people don't go on massive abusing sprees.

I think this is absolutely understood; there's already a GRAPHIC command that requests an RP be censored of material, and I think any and all people would be willing to ftb scenes like that, especially with regards to something that might be overdone. However, when people talk about more strict cross-class RP, I don't think we're necessarily talking about more whippings. Frankly: people don't like getting or giving whippings for trivial matters. For all that Farra had a reputation for being horrible, she only asked for whippings -twice- in all of it.

And yes, in all of this balance is still important and player fun the desired goal. There's ways to make being a wealthy Freeman a more dangerous prospect than by making it impossible to be one; if, for example, a Freeman can't store money in a bank (this was a suggestion mentioned on OOC; I don't want to get in the debate of its pro's/con's here!) then they need to have meaningful avenues to keeping their money somewhat safe otherwise.. but thieves shouldn't have it be impossible to get to that money, either. This is where Staff Responsibility comes into play: creating the coded mechanics and policy to support the predators and the prey and keep the game fun for both of them.

Now, that's just a teeny part of it, of course. I love that education may be removed as being universal. I rp it that my character did not learn to read until she was twelve, but it does not really even seem to matter; I have tried rping illiterate characters before, but so much information is passed in literary ways, it felt a bit like I was the minority.

I think most of the idea of education being non-universal also applies to the NPC and vNPC population, and it's one I really agree with; like Dice said, class systems work best by the dis-enfranchisement of the lowest classes by the upper; a lot of that relies on a lack of education. While PCs can always be the exception to that rule, having everyone in the Kingdom be educated beyond the necessities for their service to the Kingdom is troublesome for many reasons.

[Pixie]

I voted "Depends."

Idea list:

- GLs and quiz on theme: Thoroughly behind this for apped-in GLs. I think for characters who become GLs through play there should be considerable leeway where it comes to having holes in their IC knowledge -- they could have been (and often are) thrust into it simply because there's no one else to do it, and it usually leads to interesting RP situations. Apped-in, though... you're literally coming in because you're considered the right man for the job. It'd be like apping in as a Knight with zero across the board in combat skills. How would that even happen? So: In-game promotion, no. Apped-in, yes.

- GL handbook would be great. Really, really great. Not everybody has someone amazing (ZEITA!) to model their GL tenure after -- that framework would be really helpful to have.

- No real opinion on more systems to negatively affect one another short of death. However I am still behind Tomas' idea for maiming and punishments that aren't being burned/hanged becoming coded.

- Mob descriptions do feel like they need an overhaul. City descriptions I personally wouldn't touch. They're gritty where they're appropriate for grittiness and not gritty elsewhere.

- I am -all for- realistic rumors, gritty or otherwise.

- Please don't make gentry app-only. They're just Freemen with money. The fewer things we're restricting the better off we are, imo.

- Thematic differences between classes are prevalent, but they're not gritty. Some attention there would be nice.

- Removing purchase silver already doesn't sound great to me. I love the assets system and look forward to it, but I'd rather we kept the ability to spend XP or QP on silver as well. Non-Merchant Freemen already have plenty scarce assets.

- I like the Laws of Caring and Charity, but I think that Caring could be removed and just assumed to be under Charity. It would make it more ambiguous and open up more avenues for nobles to go the Casimir route (kicking a Freeman in the face for getting mud on his boots because he -has- to learn how wrong he was for doing so).

- Removing the theme of universal education would be preferred, for me. It wars with the medieval setting in a pretty jarring way. This might be a good way to separate Gentry from Freemen further -- Freemen are universally uneducated, Gentry are universally educated.

- Freemen don't really have many rights, as far as I know. They have the right not to be murdered, stolen from, or assaulted. Removing those would most definitely make things grittier, but I wouldn't recommend it. They aren't peasants/slaves. If anything, I would suggest NOT removing these rights from Freemen, and instead removing them from Hillmen/Charali -- they're both considered a rung lower than they are as it is, so they're not even really Freemen.

- Slavery in Lithmore is... ehhh. Maybe. I personally really dislike it. I think it would compromise Lithmore's theme for something that uncivilized to become part of it. Lithmore believes itself superior, and this is one of the many ways it demonstrates that superiority.

[Rabek]

I don't see much point in adding "gritty" until we start enforcing what's already there.

Though if we can start doing that, removing universal health care and education seems like a good start.

[Geras]

Dear Players,

Do you think TI is gritty enough? Why or why not? Do you want to see more 'gritty' and dark things in play?

From some other threads in the forum, we have some ideas suggested (but NOT necessarily approved):
- GLs get a quiz on the theme.
- Write a How to GL handbook or something to indoctrinate GLs into the theme and improve IC leadership.
- Create more non-death avenues for players to affect one another in negative ways (suggestions please!)
- Update some of the city and mob descriptions & behaviors to be a bit grittier
- Create some gritty, realistic rumors as a backdrop
- Give more of a thematic difference between different social classes (someone suggesed that gentry should be application-only)
- Remove purchasing silver so resources become more scarce
- Remove the laws of Charity and Caring
- Remove the theme of universal education
- Remove some of the rights of freemen, or better define them as lower "beings" than gentry/nobility
- Introduce slavery in Lithmore

Do you have any more suggestions for us to consider beyond the above?

Warm regards,
Kinaed

1 - No thanks. A helpfile on the position isn't a bad idea though.

2. How to GL is a good idea, but not sure how that would address theme except in a case by case basis?

3. Yes, YES YES. More spells that mark people, more punishments of the sort, a public goal, spells that are in effect a public goal, more skills and policies to facilitate kidnapping and ransom... all of these. Yes!

4. I think this is the best way to handle the "racism" side of things. Because frankly, I think most people find it boring to RP themselves, at least past a point.

5. I think things are fine as-is.

6. This is an interesting idea that I'm unsure of.

7. No. Frankly I think this would be unthematic. This is what gives the setting some nuance and makes it interesting. The Order and Dav weren't actually all bad.

8. Is this explicitly state in the theme? I think it would just be inconvenient and annoying

9. No thanks. Also unthematic. This is the era of the Barons' Wars and Simon de Montford's first elected English parliament. Society was becoming more progressive, not less.

10. No thanks. Also unthematic. Slavery was on a steep decline at this point in European history.

[Evrald]

I have to agree with Geras. Though making sure Guild Leaders know about Theme would probably be helpful. Of all the things mentioned I'm most looking forward to how purchase silver being removed will affect everything, though that's probably the merchant in me. Updating Mobs and stuff wouldn't be bad, I can't see that being a bad thing no matter what. As for differences in social classes, I think it's usually really evident to all involved when someone is a different social class, from how they talk to what they're wearing unless a Gentry isn't trying to look better than a Freeman. The theme of universal education I think right now is to differentiate Freemen from Peasants isn't it? If you remove that then Freemen will be no different than Peasants. I'm against slavery in Lithmore as one reason Charali 'come' to Lithmore is because there is no slavery in the city and making slavery a thing would effectively remove the reason for the race actively travelling to the city and would likely drive away any that were there already.