Whoinvis Discussion General /WDG/

[Puciek]

Late to the game here. Been super casual as of lately.

Well hrrm, this kills all my characters. I always live in Whoinvis for the simple reason so many players use OOC who ICC'ly. I really don't see the reason why anyone needs to know I'm on except the staff. It does not impact the gameplay negatively in any way. If you really want to give players a way to find other players in character, then mechanics should be introduced to better track those whoinvis characters who walk openly in the city (i.e.: simulate NPC's seeing a character or their cloaks and gossipping where they are at).

Now I have to be forced into RP to gain experience to hide my character from people who will see me and actively seek me out based on OOC information.

I play here because the game is pretty open RP. It's a gridless system to me. I have freedom to do a number of things. Changes like these are extremely linear and basically the staff telling me I can only play one way. For example, I just logged on for awhile. No XP in the pool. I cannot go invis. Now I must go RP to go invis. This is the staff forcing my hand to gain more experience than a normal character who does not need whoinvis.

So this change makes you go out and RP? Seems like a good change to me! Because having to go and RP with people is a good, not bad thing, especially public RP where other people can also join in - good to meet and mingle, or meet and smash faces.

And no, the vast majority of the players do not use OOC Icly, please refrain from summarily insulting the players as a whole thank you very much. And if you know of someone who does, report them to staff. Though if your entire character premise relies on not being visible OOCly as online/offline, I would say that you may be the one with OOC/IC separation issues and should rethink why are you really using whoinvis. Do you do it because without it people will OOCly figure your IC name, or do you do it to be hard to catch in the game hm? If it's the latter, well, that's using OOC for IC gains. If it's the former - name alone gained OOCLy is useless (for most part).

I can clarify more.

This is a RP MUD and RP is generally what we are all here for including myself. However, I do believe that RP should happen naturally. Good game design to me is the staff providing me with the tools and even systems that generate story and or conflict for me to utilize with those tools to make RP happen naturally. For example, Johnny walking to a tavern to encounter Sarah where he uses a customized emote system to tell her a story about his former pirate life.

Rooms, movement, custom emotes, and much more are all systems and tools given to those two players to RP naturally. The moment you start creating systems that pre-alert Johnny that Sarah is in a tavern where she wants to talk about former or past lives before you can move X spaces, then you are unnaturally forcing the scenes. This does not mean Johnny hates RP because he declines Sarah, it just may mean he doesn't want to be forced into a scene.

I know it may seem like I'm splitting hairs here, but I do enjoy hiding behind WHOINVIS to not alert others that I am on or around. No one will ever convince me that players don't use WHO icc'ly, especially if my criminal character is wanted. I've had it happen too much in the past and trying to prove that or even forcing me into a position to use it as a reason is completely dumb. I know some of you have no problems reporting people and making excuses on X, Y, Z. But I rather be drama free and just try to RP naturally without force and without taxing the staff depending on the outcomes. Again, providing the tools to play the game and having fun.

No one is going to waste time trying to convince you that the player base as a whole is not abusing OOC, trust me on that, becuase saying stuff like this is beyond contempt.

The only thing I will add is that you are confusing the use of WHO/WHERE for what it is - seeing if someone is around for rp (which is perfectly fine way to use it and what it's for) and abusing ooc information. If your criminal is being hunted then you have already blown your cover icly, and using whoinvis to avoid the consequences may very well fall under help rp avoidance:

To be considered RP Avoidance as a matter for policy, three factors must be
present:

1) The avoiding player must know that someone has RP with them.

2) The avoiding player must use OOC, not IC means, to avoid RP.

'OOC Means' includes, but is not limited to:

* Limiting online availability to avoid getting caught
* Refusing to schedule times for roleplay
* Quitting or dropping link in tense situations such as arrest/combat
* Using the wholist to avoid authorities when committing crimes

I don't think we got someone punished for using whoinvis that way, but then we didn't have people living on whoinvis before.

[Famine]

To Famine: While an IC way to know that someone is on the grid would be great, we can consider that the who list is just that: some NPC spotted X somewhere recently. And if I remember correctly, even you wrote some time ago you were hoping to see more people in public streets with whererp on. And, well, if I could know your character is online, I'd be amongst those who would happily wait for you in a public street - and if I need revenge after this, I would happily hunt for you the next time.

To all: I like the idea of hiding the wholist to those who are on whoinvis. That is so simple, and seems fair. I hope this idea could be discussed by staff, even if another solution is currently implemented.

Pretty much my point here. Just the thought people would use WHO as connection to a NPC seeing someone is exactly why people use that intel in IC. It's silly to think there is some magic list the government can query to see if all their most wanted criminals are alive and breathing in the world and currently active. It's unfair and OOC information that gives you the advantage without a counter from me outside that now limited masking from WHOINVIS.

Re-reading some of the feedback in this thread, it's pretty clear people are citing using this command to avoid capture as well avoiding detection (i.e.: lawful using it before they pounce on a mage suspect). If you're going to admit that people are using it to avoid capture then you must admit you are using that OOC information in a IC way. If not, then someone please explain to me why does it matter if I use WHOINVIS in the first place? Why have WHO at all if you're not using that information to seek me out IC'ly?

If you're trying to say that it's not targeted at me specifically (as the criminal) but more general to see if people are online, then you're creating a very thin line between that general information and someone who will specifically hone in on me when they see my name pop on that list. You're also creating a very thin line if most of the characters online are known to you as lawful and I decide to rob someone as known criminal. While you may try not to use the WHO to draw conclusions it was me until you investigate, it's really hard not to automatically assume it was me because clearly, I'm the only one on who is a bad guy versus any of the other bad guys who could have done it who are NOT ONLINE.

The more I think about this the more I dislike it. I feel this is all coming down to pushing criminals out or making it harder for them to function. The changes in the past year are slowly creeping up on this and now it sounds like we have more on the way that will root us out even more.

P.S

Stop confusing "players" with "all players". It's really annoying. All it takes is one player to use OOC information IC'ly to get me hung.

[Puciek]

To Famine: While an IC way to know that someone is on the grid would be great, we can consider that the who list is just that: some NPC spotted X somewhere recently. And if I remember correctly, even you wrote some time ago you were hoping to see more people in public streets with whererp on. And, well, if I could know your character is online, I'd be amongst those who would happily wait for you in a public street - and if I need revenge after this, I would happily hunt for you the next time.

To all: I like the idea of hiding the wholist to those who are on whoinvis. That is so simple, and seems fair. I hope this idea could be discussed by staff, even if another solution is currently implemented.

Pretty much my point here. Just the thought people would use WHO as connection to a NPC seeing someone is exactly why people use that intel in IC. It's silly to think there is some magic list the government can query to see if all their most wanted criminals are alive and breathing in the world and currently active. It's unfair and OOC information that gives you the advantage without a counter from me outside that now limited masking from WHOINVIS.

Re-reading some of the feedback in this thread, it's pretty clear people are citing using this command to avoid capture as well avoiding detection (i.e.: lawful using it before they pounce on a mage suspect). If you're going to admit that people are using it to avoid capture then you must admit you are using that OOC information in a IC way. If not, then someone please explain to me why does it matter if I use WHOINVIS in the first place? Why have WHO at all if you're not using that information to seek me out IC'ly?

If you're trying to say that it's not targeted at me specifically (as the criminal) but more general to see if people are online, then you're creating a very thin line between that general information and someone who will specifically hone in on me when they see my name pop on that list. You're also creating a very thin line if most of the characters online are known to you as lawful and I decide to rob someone as known criminal. While you may try not to use the WHO to draw conclusions it was me until you investigate, it's really hard not to automatically assume it was me because clearly, I'm the only one on who is a bad guy versus any of the other bad guys who could have done it who are NOT ONLINE.

The more I think about this the more I dislike it. I feel this is all coming down to pushing criminals out or making it harder for them to function. The changes in the past year are slowly creeping up on this and now it sounds like we have more on the way that will root us out even more.

P.S

Stop confusing "players" with "all players". It's really annoying. All it takes is one player to use OOC information IC'ly to get me hung.

And no, it doesn't take 1 person to use the information OOCly, but you've ignored that part of my previous posts so I will stop replying to you altogether. You cannot ignore a counterpoint and just keep repeating yourself like answer wasn't given.

[Famine]

To Famine: While an IC way to know that someone is on the grid would be great, we can consider that the who list is just that: some NPC spotted X somewhere recently. And if I remember correctly, even you wrote some time ago you were hoping to see more people in public streets with whererp on. And, well, if I could know your character is online, I'd be amongst those who would happily wait for you in a public street - and if I need revenge after this, I would happily hunt for you the next time.

To all: I like the idea of hiding the wholist to those who are on whoinvis. That is so simple, and seems fair. I hope this idea could be discussed by staff, even if another solution is currently implemented.

Pretty much my point here. Just the thought people would use WHO as connection to a NPC seeing someone is exactly why people use that intel in IC. It's silly to think there is some magic list the government can query to see if all their most wanted criminals are alive and breathing in the world and currently active. It's unfair and OOC information that gives you the advantage without a counter from me outside that now limited masking from WHOINVIS.

Re-reading some of the feedback in this thread, it's pretty clear people are citing using this command to avoid capture as well avoiding detection (i.e.: lawful using it before they pounce on a mage suspect). If you're going to admit that people are using it to avoid capture then you must admit you are using that OOC information in a IC way. If not, then someone please explain to me why does it matter if I use WHOINVIS in the first place? Why have WHO at all if you're not using that information to seek me out IC'ly?

If you're trying to say that it's not targeted at me specifically (as the criminal) but more general to see if people are online, then you're creating a very thin line between that general information and someone who will specifically hone in on me when they see my name pop on that list. You're also creating a very thin line if most of the characters online are known to you as lawful and I decide to rob someone as known criminal. While you may try not to use the WHO to draw conclusions it was me until you investigate, it's really hard not to automatically assume it was me because clearly, I'm the only one on who is a bad guy versus any of the other bad guys who could have done it who are NOT ONLINE.

The more I think about this the more I dislike it. I feel this is all coming down to pushing criminals out or making it harder for them to function. The changes in the past year are slowly creeping up on this and now it sounds like we have more on the way that will root us out even more.

P.S

Stop confusing "players" with "all players". It's really annoying. All it takes is one player to use OOC information IC'ly to get me hung.

And no, it doesn't take 1 person to use the information OOCly, but you've ignored that part of my previous posts so I will stop replying to you altogether. You cannot ignore a counterpoint and just keep repeating yourself like answer wasn't given.

What counterpoint? Your citation of the RP avoidance policy that basically states that using WHOLIST is against the rules because it's OOC information? Thought I pretty much covered that in my prior posts. I can spell it out more for you if you like.

Using WHOLIST to avoid RP is bad because you COULD use that OOC information to avoid being captured. That's how I understand that citation and this goes both ways. People will use this change to see who's on to engage in RP or specifically, use this information from an OOC command to influence their character ICC'ly to capture me. Regardless of avoidance or not, the reason this is quoted in that policy is because clearly the staff see WHOLIST as OOC information. Using this to your benefit is bad regardless if it's used to avoid RP or to my counterpoint, to engage in it.

If you disagree people will do that, then please explain to me why those same players want WHOINVIS limited? What benefit does it serve if not to provide OOC information that I am on to begin with? Likewise, feel free to explain why in that policy, it's not fine to use OOC information to avoid RP, but okies to use it to engage RP? Remember, engaging in RP with me could mean leading to my capture. I think some of you are thinking all RP engagement is positive regardless of the outcome. This is not always true, especially to players like me who could be forced into a RP engagement that leads to our arrest and possibly in-character death.

On the other piece that you're asking. Do I use WHOINVIS to avoid RP? Yes and no. I use it to protect me from those using WHO in a OOC manner to hunt me or to draw conclusions about my in-character actions (this is my yes to avoiding their RP because I feel it's using OOC information to motivate them in-character). It's not like I'm not on WHERERP while WHOINVIS. People can find me if they search. I just don't want them to get the indication of knowing im online and then searching for me. I much rather have a system implemented that allows players to find me through actual tools or game mechanics like NPC's spotting me and spreading rumors that players have to actively seek out than just typing, "WHO".

[Starstarfish]

If you're trying to say that it's not targeted at me specifically (as the criminal) but more general to see if people are online, then you're creating a very thin line between that general information and someone who will specifically hone in on me when they see my name pop on that list. You're also creating a very thin line if most of the characters online are known to you as lawful and I decide to rob someone as known criminal. While you may try not to use the WHO to draw conclusions it was me until you investigate, it's really hard not to automatically assume it was me because clearly, I'm the only one on who is a bad guy versus any of the other bad guys who could have done it who are NOT ONLINE.

Such conclusions and arrests require cnotes - so, if you have a concern someone doesn't have cnotes and IC reasons for an arrest, that's a policy concern, bring it to staff.
Who knows if other people are "lawful" or not? I mean, I know you haven't been around of late, but there's certainly been fairly public recent RP that made clear that assumption is likely not accurate. -At all- And once again, such conclusions require cnotes and valid IC info.

Also, for the record, I was arguably public enemy #1 for three weeks straight. I never went on Whoinvis, in the end it was my choice to use or not use WhereRP and go to public areas or who I RPed with that made a difference in how things went, not the use or non-use of Whoinvis. So this idea that "if I'm a criminal the minute they see me on Whoinvis they'll come right after me" is false. And if it's true, you likely aren't really hiding that well.

I much rather have a system implemented that allows players to find me through actual tools or game mechanics like NPC's spotting me and spreading rumors that players have to actively seek out than just typing, "WHO".

There are ways it could be more fluid. #1 that messengers could/should report where a person was found if they make the choice to accept a messenger. That being said, being able to use Whoinvis to avoid RP you don't like/want is no better or worse than using it to do the very things you are saying you do not like. You can gain Whoinvis time by doing non-covert activities and RPing with others. It promotes character balance.

[Puciek]

Actually, you can gain whoinvis time by doing covert activities. Eavesdropping on hide/invis still earns you whoinvis time.

[Famine]

Actually, you can gain whoinvis time by doing covert activities. Eavesdropping on hide/invis still earns you whoinvis time.

Sense you did the same towards my point, I'm going to have to point out that you are not explaining why you need use on WHO if not for the benefit of the OOC information? Someone please explain how it's negatively impacting your characters?

[Spoops]

Because the benefit of OOC information is nice. It saves me an absurd amount of struggle and wasted time finding people I want to RP with.

But, it goes both ways. You're not going to tell me, as a covert character, you don't abuse who. Thieves are going to do things when there aren't Reeves online, when there aren't Knights, and they for sure aren't going to rob a house if they think the owner is home. It's rare for thieves or mages to get caught in the act, and on the instances they do, it's usually accidental, or somebody is stalking that ass IC.

The thing is: nobody cares. Seriously. At any given point during the day, I can likely name most thieves or mages on the who list just due to their lack of appearance in public RP. Does that matter? Not really. They likely use an alias anyways, I have absolutely zero IC excuse for trying to find them. You're being extremely paranoid, to the point you think avoiding every bit of RP that might be detrimental to your success is okay. On top of it, I probably have little interest in RPing with people like that anyhow. I'll probably enjoy arresting people like that less than they would enjoy it, because I can tell you almost exactly how their interrogation RP will be.

Honestly, living on whoinvis is fine. But complaining you can't do it as easily, because you HAVE to RP, is a bit ridiculous. Lawful types, like us Orderites or the Reeves, get policy cases against us for just about every god damn thing we do. Everything has to be cnoted, everything has to be logged, we have to have every single logical conclusion available IC to prove how we got to where we did. Does the 'who' command make it easier? Not really. I commonly see people online who I would try to get arrested if I saw them on grid, but it's not like I'm sending tells to people like 'OH HEY YOU BETTER GO CHECK WHERE THIS DUDE IS.' Why? Because none of us want ANOTHER policy case. Which is a good thing. It's a lot of work, but it's what keeps everybody in line.

[Famine]

Because the benefit of OOC information is nice. It saves me an absurd amount of struggle and wasted time finding people I want to RP with.

But, it goes both ways. You're not going to tell me, as a covert character, you don't abuse who. Thieves are going to do things when there aren't Reeves online, when there aren't Knights, and they for sure aren't going to rob a house if they think the owner is home. It's rare for thieves or mages to get caught in the act, and on the instances they do, it's usually accidental, or somebody is stalking that ass IC.

The thing is: nobody cares. Seriously. At any given point during the day, I can likely name most thieves or mages on the who list just due to their lack of appearance in public RP. Does that matter? Not really. They likely use an alias anyways, I have absolutely zero IC excuse for trying to find them. You're being extremely paranoid, to the point you think avoiding every bit of RP that might be detrimental to your success is okay. On top of it, I probably have little interest in RPing with people like that anyhow. I'll probably enjoy arresting people like that less than they would enjoy it, because I can tell you almost exactly how their interrogation RP will be.

Honestly, living on whoinvis is fine. But complaining you can't do it as easily, because you HAVE to RP, is a bit ridiculous. Lawful types, like us Orderites or the Reeves, get policy cases against us for just about every god damn thing we do. Everything has to be cnoted, everything has to be logged, we have to have every single logical conclusion available IC to prove how we got to where we did. Does the 'who' command make it easier? Not really. I commonly see people online who I would try to get arrested if I saw them on grid, but it's not like I'm sending tells to people like 'OH HEY YOU BETTER GO CHECK WHERE THIS DUDE IS.' Why? Because none of us want ANOTHER policy case. Which is a good thing. It's a lot of work, but it's what keeps everybody in line.

I'm finding it hard to believe that you can say things like, "because the benefit of OOC information is nice" and not draw a connection between using that information ICC'ly just because "none of us want ANOTHER policy case." It really sounds like you want to use it. If you not, then again, I must stress, why does it matter if there is a WHO or not? You're putting too much faith in the fact people won't abuse this information on either side, criminal or not. You want this change for a reason and if it's for the sole purpose of benefiting of OOC information as you said, then that's leaning very close if not crossing over that line of many policies here of using OOC information in-character.

And personally, I don't think I've ever typed WHO and avoided doing something because I saw someone. I have the MASK on WHOIS to where no one knows it's me unless I specifically run into them in a room. Even then, it's pretty spotty. I use WHOINVIS for protecting me from those who MAY abuse it because it has happened in the past. And it sounds like from your own experience, if you're quick to point at me and say I use it to not do something, then obviously you have experienced it too.

You are really putting too much emphasis on all the details you have to do to cover your ass. Me being on the other end of this hook, I have no idea what information you are going on unless it's revealed in the scene. For all I know, you did naturally find me or maybe you saw me on WHO and decided to do something about it. I have no idea because I can't read your CNOTES or your mind. To me, it seems extremely easy to cover it up and I'm surely not just going to point fingers just to point them because I was caught. Maybe I'm wrong there. Maybe the Imms go over every bit of your information with every capture that happens with a fine comb. But to me, I really don't want to go down a road of crying wolf everytime a person snags me. It's not fair to them.

[Rabek]

I find it remarkable that people are arguing so strongly for metagaming on an RP enforced game.

The who list is metagaming, flat out. It's knowing OOC things for your IC benefit. People don't have to use that information to hunt down and kill people for it to be metagaming. Looking at the who list, seeing Bob, and then sending a messenger to Bob because he's on the who list is using OOC info ICly. It's socially acceptable metagaming on TI, but it's still metagaming.

It shouldn't be a big deal that some people want to opt out of metagaming on an RPE game. They shouldn't really need a reason other "it's metagaming, and I don't like metagaming in my RP" which, I believe, is what Famine is trying to say.

And "they require cnotes to hunt you down" is really faulty reasoning. It's pretty easy to find a reason to justify just about anything. You don't even have to do it consciously. If an Inquisitor OOCly knows someone is a mage, they're going to notice all the IC clues that they wouldn't otherwise. They're going to give more weight to those clues than they would if they didn't know. That's at the most benign. At the worst, they could deliberately barge in on the suspect (using where/who to track them down) when they're casting, or something along those lines, to have a valid cnote for burning them.